Dragon Box 3 discussion

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew about region codes I just didn't know that was shorthand for it.

Also, I read this review from dvdverdict

"A fair amount of grain is evident, but this is a two decade old animation, and frankly, one would expect as much."

what exactly is "grain"?

A full deep explanation
It's a thing that most old film have (good thing now we got BD, so DB Kai will safe )

[Goku100xKamehameha]

What exactly is "R1" and "R2" ?

Region 1 [North America] and Region 2 [Most of Europe and Japan]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_region_code

What exactly is "R1" and "R2" ?

R1 stand for Region 1 (BD or DVD or other region encoded disc)
R2 stand for Region 2 (BD or DVD or other region encoded disc)

DVD Regions are not the same as Blu ray.

I see people say "BD Region 1 (A)". so it's also can be call "Region 1"

[Gaffer Tape]

Re: KakaR0T

Basically, anything shot on film will have grain because film is made of "grain" or silver halide crystals. It's what creates the image, like the stroke of a paintbrush creates a distinctive texture. Unfortunately, it's gotten an incorrect reputation as being "bad" when it's not. As far as I can see, that negative reaction comes from two things: the old world source being dupe grain, the new world source being digital video. With the push of HDTVs and Blu-ray players and everything high-def, this crystal clear video image has been the new hype, the new buzz, so grain is considered bad.

The old world confusion is because of dupe grain made by copying. Just like making generational copies of a tape results in lowered image quality, the same happens with film. Every time it is copied, it inherits the grain of the new film stock it is being copied to, hence the name dupe (or duplication) grain. And so the farther away you get from the source, the more layers of grain the film will have, not to mention inheriting all the dirt, scratches, etc. from each source. Since most of our sources of really old films only exist as multi-generational copies as the originals have become lost or destroyed, the only way really old films are viewed are these old, grainy, scratchy, poor-quality versions. Therefore, old and poor quality are seen by the public eye as hand in hand with grainy.

However, the Dragon Boxes go back to the original source material, so it's the way it's supposed to be seen. I'm not exactly sure if how this was done is how film prints for theatrical films (usually 35 mm or 70 mm, whereas Dragon Ball is 16 mm) are made, where an interpositive is taken from the original negative and then an internegative is taken from that, and then all distributed film prints are made from that internegative while the original negative stays in cold storage only to be taken out when the intermediaries have worn out. But as you can see from that process, even the best versions have a couple of generations of dupe grain on them.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

But how about movies that already transfer to BD without grain seen at all? do they still don't have grain after many years?

[bkev]

That's not saying there isn't such thing as excessive grain, though. Previous releases of movies (the Bond series comes to mind) may have appeared to have more grain, but a lot of it was due to artificial sharpening. Granted, a few of the UE Bond movies look too clean, but for the most part they're a significant improvement.

So, how bout that Dragonball?

[Gaffer Tape]

But how about movies that already transfer to BD without grain seen at all? do they still don't have grain after many years?

Grain isn't a product of age... as in, more grain doesn't appear like more wrinkles do on a person's face as they get older. Is that what you're asking? And you can't accidentally make something grainier, like, "Whoops, I just dropped my film reel in a bucket of grain. Hope I can get all that grain off it." You CAN and often will, however, have things like dirt or sand introduced to film, which is often mistaken for grain. Those are the kinds of things that can and should be removed in restoration. Of course, like I said in my last post, if a film stock with dirt is copied, then the new copy is going to have that dirt inherently exist as part of its image.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Digital photography does not exhibit film grain, since there is no film for any grain to exist within.

So "Digitally Recorded" Movies like the Jump Special will not have grain and DB Kai will not have more grain

[Gaffer Tape]

Exactly. Film is, well, more of less, made of grain. Digital video is not, so it won't be present unless artificially produced (ie. if a director wants a film-esque quality but for some reason can't use actual film... or because he's sad and can't afford film). A lot of video editors can simulate the look of grain.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Exactly. Film is, well, more of less, made of grain. Digital video is not, so it won't be present unless artificially produced (ie. if a director wants a film-esque quality but for some reason can't use actual film... or because he's sad and can't afford film). A lot of video editors can simulate the look of grain.

I know that, it's wrote on Wikipedia

[Krycek7o2]

I love grain when its kept in films, but there are times when DNR [Digital Noise Reduction - "Reduce Grain"] can be good and will ultimately help the look and feel of a film.
Look at The Wizard of Oz, The Searchers and Gone with the Wind, simply beautiful in High Definition, but with strong use of DNR, you might end up with Patton. One of the worst looking BD's out there.
Anyway.

About those screen shots, I made for you guys...

[Goku100xKamehameha]

In digital photography, image noise sometimes appears as a "grain-like" effect.

You say DVNR (Digital Video Noise Reduction) but it's not a noise it's a grain (but maybe two have no big different so it can treated the same)

[Metalwario64]

About those screen shots, I made for you guys...

It's nice, in a way, to see that there is even some macroblocking during the first scene mentioned on the Japanese sets, but it's still upsetting that it looks so bad on FUNimation's release. Also, as the second set of screens showed, FUNimation's lowered bit-rate also breaks up that scene where it looked fine on the Japanese sets.

It may have been unavoidable though, to fit the extra episode and audio track on the discs. Not to mention the ridiculously high bit-rate of the Japanese sets. It makes me glad that they ditched the "broadcast audio" track, because the picture may have been even worse had they included it.

[pjay]

Well I feel a little better knowing we in the US got a great set even with some of the micro-blocking that came from the Japanese set.

[canine224]

I was going to try and read all the posts but there are way too many so I figured I'd just ask. On my Dragon Box the add on the back was attached by tap unlike the previous ones which had a sticky gel type substance. I was wondering if this was everyone since when I tried to removed the tape it ripped the paper on my Dragon Box and I have really heard of that happening to anyone else. I was careful when removing the tape so I no it didn't rip because of me pulling to fast.

[The Time Traveller]

I was going to try and read all the posts but there are way too many so I figured I'd just ask. On my Dragon Box the add on the back was attached by tap unlike the previous ones which had a sticky gel type substance. I was wondering if this was everyone since when I tried to removed the tape it ripped the paper on my Dragon Box and I have really heard of that happening to anyone else. I was careful when removing the tape so I no it didn't rip because of me pulling to fast.

Plenty of people have been talking about that sadly... I'm not sure if anyone got it with the gel stuff.

[canine224]

Thanks The Time Traveller, I appreciate the information. I was only asking to see if repurchasing it was worth it since I've waited too long to see if I can return it for an exchange. I guess I'll just stick with this one for now.

[jjgp1112]

Mine actually did come with the gel thing.

[The Time Traveller]

Thanks The Time Traveller, I appreciate the information. I was only asking to see if repurchasing it was worth it since I've waited too long to see if I can return it for an exchange. I guess I'll just stick with this one for now.

You can try returning it and trying a hairdryer on the stickytape if it is that again, it doesn't matter if you waited too long, it's not your fault and it's a common problem.

[GizmoKSX]

About those screen shots, I made for you guys...

It's nice, in a way, to see that there is even some macroblocking during the first scene mentioned on the Japanese sets, but it's still upsetting that it looks so bad on FUNimation's release. Also, as the second set of screens showed, FUNimation's lowered bit-rate also breaks up that scene where it looked fine on the Japanese sets.

It may have been unavoidable though, to fit the extra episode and audio track on the discs. Not to mention the ridiculously high bit-rate of the Japanese sets. It makes me glad that they ditched the "broadcast audio" track, because the picture may have been even worse had they included it.

I wonder how much more expensive the FUNi sets would have been if they had used more discs instead of having seven episodes per DVD. Some of us here would have been glad to spend a few extra dollars per set if it meant optimizing the picture and sound quality, but I think FUNi wanted to keep the price down to help sell more sets. Obviously, the FUNi Dragon Boxes aren't on shelves with massive, pricey collectors' sets. That means they're competing side-by-side with products that appear to be cheaper (even if we are getting a great deal in terms of price per episode). Adding a few more dollars to the price tag might have broken the deal for casual consumers. Just speculation.

And of course, having seven episodes per disc and marketing seven sets total for the series, the thematic tie-in with seven Dragon Balls writes itself.

If it helped FUNi actually get the product on and off store shelves, then I don't mind a slight hit in the bitrate. We do have some awesome sets in our hands at ridiculously good prices. Sure, I wish we could have a perfect presentation, but we are only focusing on a few frames that fly right by in action. And most of us have seen DVDs that look much worse throughout the entire presentation.

[jjgp1112]

I think godofchaos was the one who suggested that Funi was probably just going to encode the episodes at those numbers anyway and just saw 7 episodes per disc as the most efficient method of going about this.