Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

[KakaR0T]

It was really awesome how Goku became a Super Saiyan. Freeza kills Krillin and that was the last straw. But after the Freeza Arc, everybody and their mother could go Super Saiyan like nothing which kind of eliminated the awesome-ness of turning into a Super Saiyan.

And the fact that there are different levels of super saiyan also takes some of the awesomeness away. You ever notice how they needed a new level of super saiyan for every new major enemy met?
Freeza - They needed to go Super Saiyan
Cell - They needed to go Super Saiyan 2
Majin Buu - They needed to go Super Saiyan 3.

each time a new enemy came along the previous level of super saiyan (as strong as it was) wasn't good enough.

I feel that being a Super Saiyan should be the ultimate transformation and only (a very few) pure saiyans should be able to do it and that you shouldn't be able to go super saiyan so young like Goten and Trunks. That way it makes the transformation all the more amazing.
Discuss.



Speaking of Super Saiyans, what would Nappa look like if he went Super Saiyan?

[Blue]

Everyone and their grandmother going Super Saiyan is one of the primary reasons I really dislike the series after the Freeza arc.Super Saiyan was built up as being this ultimate legend one person every x amount of decades was supposed to accomplish and then the very next arc everyone who could plausibly go Super Saiyan...does. Then we get to the Boo arc where two stupid babbys just transform as soon as they pop out of their mothers vagina.

The only good thing that came out of the Super Saiyan clusterfuck is the design of Super Saiyan 4 Goku. I've always thought that should have been the original appearence.

[Kaboom]

The whole "well now everyone's a Super Saiyan for nothing" complaint gets a little blown out of proportion. Within the canon manga, there are a mere five Super Saiyans. Only two of them, Goten and Trunks, had it "handed" to them. The remaining majority, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, all had to work for it one way or another.

Likewise, I don't think the introduction of the new stages were particularly hurtful either. The first Super Saiyan instance was the climax of the Freeza arc. Improving and transcending Super Saiyan was one of the biggest themes of the entire Androids and Cell story, which happened to culminate in Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 3 could be seen as excessive, especially since it wasn't even responsible for defeating the 'big bad' of its story. But at the same time, that could be a plus since if it was, that would make the story quite repetitive. Super Saiyan 3 was just kind of "there," but that's not necessarily bad in and of itself. After all, the entire Boo arc was just one big scramble of, "oh, nothing really matters, let's just have some cool fights and have fun."

I feel that being a Super Saiyan should be the ultimate transformation and only (a very few) pure saiyans should be able to do it and that you shouldn't be able to go super saiyan so young like Goten and Trunks. That way it makes the transformation all the more amazing.

I would agree. But at the same time, I wouldn't give up the Cell and Boo story arcs for the world.

... Okay maybe for the world.

Speaking of Super Saiyans, what would Nappa look like if he went Super Saiyan?

At Super Saiyan Grades 2 and 3, his muscles would become too big for him to move, and some of his hair would grow out to the equivalent of a crew-cut. At Super Saiyan 3, his eyebrow hair would be added to his scalp, but not much beyond that.

[Blue]

The whole "well now everyone's a Super Saiyan for nothing" complaint gets a little blown out of proportion. Within the canon manga, there are a mere five Super Saiyans. Only two of them, Goten and Trunks, had it "handed" to them. The remaining majority, Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan, all had to work for it one way or another.

Likewise, I don't think the introduction of the new stages were particularly hurtful either. The first Super Saiyan instance was the climax of the Freeza arc. Improving and transcending Super Saiyan was one of the biggest themes of the entire Androids and Cell story, which happened to culminate in Super Saiyan 2. Super Saiyan 3 could be seen as excessive, especially since it wasn't even responsible for defeating the 'big bad' of its story. But at the same time, that could be a plus since if it was, that would make the story quite repetitive. Super Saiyan 3 was just kind of "there," but that's not necessarily bad in and of itself. After all, the entire Boo arc was just one big scramble of, "oh, nothing really matters, let's just have some cool fights and have fun."

That's 4 more then there's supposed to be according to what Toriyama was setting up in the Freeza arc. Of course when your characters get powerful enough to destroy the sole tyrant with a firm grasp on the entire galaxy you need to start pulling really dumb ideas out of your ass if you want to keep writing.

The whole entire point of the death scene with Vegeta on Namek was him accepting the fact that Goku is the man the legends spoke about, not him. He wanted Goku to make the best out of the situation and embrace his Saiyan pride to reach his full potential. Of course when the Cell saga rolled around it was "LOL NVM GUISE I'm PURE EVL OR SOMETAN HERES A 5 min FLASHBACK"
and that's if you're talking about the anime we don't even get as much as that in the manga.

Gohan going super Saiyan 2 was an absolute retread of Goku going Super Saiyan. Reluctance to give into full hardheartedness, big bad kicks ass, big bad threatens to kill some bitches, big bad kills one bitch, hero transforms.
Only this time it was really stupid because Gohan transforms over random robot 16 who he hadn't even ever talked to before, as opposed to his father, Piccolo...ANYONE else.

[Bussani]

If you took the extra transformations out and made Super Saiyan the ultimate thing ever...wouldn't it just beat everything? I mean, I see where people are coming from when they say this, but if Super Saiyan was the ultimate thing then the story should have just ended with it.

Personally, I like that Super Saiyan wasn't the be all and end all to everything. From very early on in the story we're told that there will always be someone stronger than you, and that theme continues through most of the story. I love Vegeta's reaction when he realizes that there are things stronger than his precious Super Saiyan running around.

[Blue]

If you took the extra transformations out and made Super Saiyan the ultimate thing ever...wouldn't it just beat everything? I mean, I see where people are coming from when they say this, but if Super Saiyan was the ultimate thing then the story should have just ended with it.

Personally, I like that Super Saiyan wasn't the be all and end all to everything. From very early on in the story we're told that there will always be someone stronger than you, and that theme continues through most of the story. I love Vegeta's reaction when he realizes that there are things stronger than his precious Super Saiyan running around.

That's the thing though, I know it's just a rumor but I think it became so well accepted due to the fact that it makes so much sense. This (as scuttlebutt says) was supposed to be Goku's swan song. He hit his peak and he would die taking down literally the most evil being in the entire universe.

I'm not sure how Toriyama would write the story from there but that seems like its ending on a high note. It also seems like he wanted to do the exact same friggin' thing in the Cell saga.

[penguintruth]

Gohan going super Saiyan 2 was an absolute retread of Goku going Super Saiyan. Reluctance to give into full hardheartedness, big bad kicks ass, big bad threatens to kill some bitches, big bad kills one bitch, hero transforms.
Only this time it was really stupid because Gohan transforms over random robot 16 who he hadn't even ever talked to before, as opposed to his father, Piccolo...ANYONE else.

Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation was triggered by Android 16's death, but it wasn't about his death, it was about what it represented, and it was at the end of a long stretch of contributing factors. It was the last straw, not the only one, and was unlike Goku's transformation in that it was the culmination of a long build up that started when he was introduced, the promise of his character finally coming to light (though Toriyama later drops the ball).

Your thoughts on this are patently ignorant of the story and its themes.

[Blue]

Gohan going super Saiyan 2 was an absolute retread of Goku going Super Saiyan. Reluctance to give into full hardheartedness, big bad kicks ass, big bad threatens to kill some bitches, big bad kills one bitch, hero transforms.
Only this time it was really stupid because Gohan transforms over random robot 16 who he hadn't even ever talked to before, as opposed to his father, Piccolo...ANYONE else.

Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation was triggered by Android 16's death, but it wasn't about his death, it was about what it represented, and it was at the end of a long stretch of contributing factors. It was the last straw, not the only one, and was unlike Goku's transformation in that it was the culmination of a long build up that started when he was introduced, the promise of his character finally coming to light (though Toriyama later drops the ball).

Your thoughts on this are patently ignorant of the story and its themes.

Touche' I'll give you that. It doesn't make the fact that Super Saiyan 2 exists any less stupid.

[jjgp1112]

I, too, didn't hate the addition of more Super Saiyans, as well as higher levels. However, I hated how Kid Trunks and Goten had it handed to them. It kinda undermined the importance of the transformation.

[Kaboom]

Maybe Toriyama WAS set on ending the series with Goku becoming THE Super Saiyan and the unequivocal strongest thing in the universe... but obviously, things didn't work out that way, and you can't blame him for it. I'd say what he came up with works out pretty well.

[Blue]

When you create an entire story arc dedicated to one principal and then you throw it out as soon as someone waves money in your face I can very well blame you for it.

As for it working out well...you and I did watch the same Boo arc didn't we?

[Kaboom]

As for it working out well...you and I did watch the same Boo arc didn't we?

I'd assume so, unless there's some alien version of the story I don't know about. I found it a lot of fun.

[KakaR0T]

Maybe Toriyama WAS set on ending the series with Goku becoming THE Super Saiyan and the unequivocal strongest thing in the universe...

That would have been a great ending to the series. That's why I like episodes 1-107 best. Of course I still like DBZ beyond the Freeza arc, it just wasn't anywhere near as epic.

[Blue]

As for it working out well...you and I did watch the same Boo arc didn't we?

I'd assume so, unless there's some alien version of the story I don't know about. I found it a lot of fun.

I found it a clusterfuck of nonsensical plot points. Different strokes I suppose.

.

That would have been a great ending to the series. That's why I like episodes 1-107 best. Of course I still like DBZ beyond the Freeza arc, it just wasn't anywhere near as epic.

Myself I don't HATE the Cell arc. It gives us a solid ending so I can ignore the Boo arc and still have closure. I liked the return of the Red Ribbon Army and the revelation of spy robots monitoring all of Goku's battles. Android 17 and 18 were really cool characters too. Also KI absorption was pretty rad.

[dragondyle]

Speaking of Super Saiyans, what would Nappa look like if he went Super Saiyan?

Probably like this:

[KakaR0T]

Myself I don't HATE the Cell arc. It gives us a solid ending so I can ignore the Boo arc and still have closure. I liked the return of the Red Ribbon Army and the revelation of spy robots monitoring all of Goku's battles. Android 17 and 18 were really cool characters too. Also KI absorption was pretty rad.

Yeah the insect camera thing was pretty cool as were the ki absorbing androids. The only thing I liked about the boo arc was the fusion "sub-arc" with the potara earrings and the fusion dance. If only they had brought fusion into the series earlier then we wouldn't need to go beyond super saiyan.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

It was really awesome how Goku became a Super Saiyan. Freeza kills Krillin and that was the last straw. But after the Freeza Arc, everybody and their mother could go Super Saiyan

Chi-Chi and Bulma couldn't go Super Saiyan! What show where you watching?

In all seriousness, Kaboom hit the nail on the head. Only two of the six(including Future Trunks) Saiyans had the Super Saiyan form "handed" to them while everyone else worked their ass off for it. Also, the ones who worked for it were the ones who surpassed the first Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan two was used to demonstrated Gohan's true power. Goku only managed to pull off the form after Dying while Vegeta achieved it through mind control. Super Saiyan three was shown sure, but it really didn't accomplish much. Goku couldn't sustain the form outside of being dead and Gotenk's fusion time was cut in half. So their were still penalties. The only time Super Saiyan went to far was in GT, but that's GT for you.

[Kid Buu]

I was fine with other characters being Super Saiyan, however I agree with Goten and Trunks going Super Saiyan really diluted the greatness of Super Saiyan. I remember hearing jokes that Chi-Chi was as strong as Freeza because of Goten going Super Saiyan.

And forget Super Saiyan Nappa, how would Super Saiyan 3 Raditz look like?

[KakaR0T]

And forget Super Saiyan Nappa, how would Super Saiyan 3 Raditz look like?

LMAO. His hair is already like a Super Saiyan 3. That would just be crazy.

[Fin]

It doesn't bug me too much, pretty much for the reasons Kaboom gave. I guess Toriyama could have tried to put some kind of limitation on Goku's Super Saiyan form post-Freeza arc so that he could remain the sole Super Saiyan while still giving the other characters a chance to shine, but I think the way he chose to deal with the issue was much better. It may have diluted the concept somewhat, but I really can't see any alternatives working much better. And the whole Boo arc was a parody of how ridiculous the entire series had become, so any jabs taken at the Super Saiyan form there were fine by me.