Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

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Godo
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Godo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:14 am

Rocketman wrote:
SparkyPantsMcGee wrote:We literally see Gohan training his ass off in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to achieve his Super Saiyan state.
No we don't. We see Gohan turn Super from fucking imagining that Freeza is attacking Goku.
Yeah, since that was the only option with only Goku in there, and I doubt Goku would be able to push Gohan over with angering him that much by himself.
And Vegeta wasn't that much better either. He was training, and achieved SSJ when he finally gave up. Yikes.

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:49 am

Personally, I do think that the Super Saiyan went too far, and the legendary aspect of the form had become somewaht diminished over the time as more and more characters discovered the form, and then went on to achieve further, ascended forms of Super Saiyan. While I do think that Toriyama did sort of write himself into a corner (since it seemed like a perfect time to end the series with Goku becoming a Super Saiyan), I never found it that much of a problem with other characters becoming Super Saiyan and then achieving more powerful Super Saiyan forms--until Super Saiyan 2, which I thought was pushing it over the limit (plus, SSJ2 hadn't really been established as a new Super Saiyan form until the Boo Arc).

What I think would've made it a little bit better (while still weakening the legendary aspect of SSJ, but what can you do when you've got a manga where villains are always getting too strong for the heroes?) is to still have the Super Saiyan transformation available to Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan, as well as the Super Saiyan 2nd Grade and 3rd Grade to Goku, Vegeta & Trunks, but for the "Super Saiyan 2", rather than have it be a new SSJ form for Gohan, it would prefer it to be more like a manifestation of Gohan's full power, so he's still sort of a Super Saiyan, but rather enhanced because his full potential has been brought out. That way, you'd only have the original Super Saiyan and then the Super Saiyan Grade forms. And it could still have the Super Saiyan Grade forms just being seen as something on top of Super Saiyan, rather than a form themself, making Super Saiyan being the one transformation.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Xyex » Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:08 pm

Godo wrote:And Vegeta wasn't that much better either. He was training, and achieved SSJ when he finally gave up. Yikes.
No, he got SSJ when he got absurdly pissed off at himself for not being able to keep up with Goku.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:21 pm

The anime actually had a rare instance of making things better in this regard with Gohan's transformation. They had him get pissed off for other reasons, and presented him with a life-or-death situation to spur him into it.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:21 pm

Kaboom wrote:The anime actually had a rare instance of making things better in this regard with Gohan's transformation. They had him get pissed off for other reasons, and presented him with a life-or-death situation to spur him into it.
Yeah, the anime was much, much better in portraying Gohan's Super Saiyan transformation rather than the manga cutting briefly to Gohan getting angry and going SSJ, just like that. 1, it didn't even properly explain how he did it. You don't just turn SSJ by "getting angry". 2, it looked ridiculously easy. 3, There was practically no impact. I looked at it, went "Huh," and moved on. I bet even a first-time reader would've seen it coming a mile off and, when it finally happened, not given a fuck.

It just seemed like Toriyama couldn't be bothered with upholding the initial Super Saiyan drama, since Gohan was, like, the fourth character to turn SSJ and transcending the SSJ form had already been discovered. He might as well have said, "Fuck it, let's just have Goku hold Gohan's hand all the way through to Super Saiyan."
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Godo » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:53 pm

Xyex wrote:
Godo wrote:And Vegeta wasn't that much better either. He was training, and achieved SSJ when he finally gave up. Yikes.
No, he got SSJ when he got absurdly pissed off at himself for not being able to keep up with Goku.
Instead of trying harder, he got pissed at himself. That's giving up in my book.

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Bussani » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:52 pm

Godo wrote:Instead of trying harder, he got pissed at himself. That's giving up in my book.
He was a smart enough warrior to realize that he'd hit his limits. To just "try harder" would have been delusional.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Godo » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:09 am

Bussani wrote:
Godo wrote:Instead of trying harder, he got pissed at himself. That's giving up in my book.
He was a smart enough warrior to realize that he'd hit his limits. To just "try harder" would have been delusional.
Ok, we clearly see that moment differently. No use for me to push on about my view, right?
I just don't think that in the midst of the meteor shower in the Anime, and in his desperation, that he thought: "Well, according to the present events, I clearly have met my limits, and it's obvious that Kakarot is my superior. I am so angry right now."
I think that it was more like:

Image

But fair enough. :P

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:22 am

Godo wrote:Ok, we clearly see that moment differently. No use for me to push on about my view, right?
I just don't think that in the midst of the meteor shower in the Anime,
And stop there, because the anime is made by Toei, and Toei hates Vegeta. :P

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by rereboy » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:20 am

Godo wrote: Ok, we clearly see that moment differently. No use for me to push on about my view, right?
I just don't think that in the midst of the meteor shower in the Anime, and in his desperation, that he thought: "Well, according to the present events, I clearly have met my limits, and it's obvious that Kakarot is my superior. I am so angry right now."
I think that it was more like:

http://i46.tinypic.com/qye4g2.jpg

But fair enough. :P
That moment is filler.

What Vegeta states in the manga (Viz translation), after he see him transform for the first time is: "I endured a training from Hell. Then I ran into a wall. My own limits. In the rage I felt towards myself, I awoke... Into a Super Saiyan!!!"

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Godo » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:36 am

Rocketman wrote:
Godo wrote:Ok, we clearly see that moment differently. No use for me to push on about my view, right?
I just don't think that in the midst of the meteor shower in the Anime,
And stop there, because the anime is made by Toei, and Toei hates Vegeta. :P
Agreed. Even when he got the chance to fight Kid Buu, he was in base, got kicked around like dirt, and then saved by ~GOKU~.
rereboy wrote:
Godo wrote: Ok, we clearly see that moment differently. No use for me to push on about my view, right?
I just don't think that in the midst of the meteor shower in the Anime, and in his desperation, that he thought: "Well, according to the present events, I clearly have met my limits, and it's obvious that Kakarot is my superior. I am so angry right now."
I think that it was more like:

http://i46.tinypic.com/qye4g2.jpg

But fair enough. :P
That moment is filler.

What Vegeta states in the manga (Viz translation), after he see him transform for the first time is: "I endured a training from Hell. Then I ran into a wall. My own limits. In the rage I felt towards myself, I awoke... Into a Super Saiyan!!!"
I knoooooooooooooooow exactly what scene is filler or not. I have been saying since I joined here that I'm a manga fan, thus I know what should be there or not.
I was demonstrating how I think it went, not what exactly happened. Hell the first picture isn't exactly from the same scene, it's from a scene where Vegeta trained in the gravity chamber.
He says the same quote that you wrote in your post in the Swedish manga, and I still will forever ever think that he gave up, since I think that even thinking of that you have limits is giving up (and I even said that we have different opinions on that).
I wasn't ever saying that your manga version was wrong, nor that the anime was right, or that we had read/seen different things. I was just saying that to me, he was giving up. And I think that's fair enough.

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Travis Touchdown » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:34 pm

I always felt the Cell Saga was the perfect spot for the series to end. Frieza would've been good with Goku becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan, the "one" to appear every 1000 years or so.

However, the Cell Saga saw a return of an old enemy; the Red Ribbon Army. Added onto that, we learn that every Saiyan has the potential to become a Super Saiyan, but once they all tried to push beyond, they failed. They just made their muscles bigger. Then Gohan ends up being the "one" to do it right, thus becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan. The Super Saiyan that stands above all other Super Saiyans if you will. Goku dies, which is sad, but Gohan takes up the mantle as the World's Strongest and he's only just a boy, like his father before him when he first became Earth's hero.

Then the Buu Saga rolled around and introduced some fun ideas; Fusion, Super Saiyan 3, etc, but it totally ruined any and all remaining chances of Super Saiyans being the things of legend.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Rocketman » Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:28 pm

Travis Touchdown wrote:Gohan ends up being the "one" to do it right, thus becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan.
That is not a good thing.

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Silver Sinspawn » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:24 pm

For once I agree with Rocketman.


and for the record Gohan gets shit handed to him just about as much as Goten and present Trunks.
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Gohan is just a kid with anger issues. Goku, Vegeta, and Future Trunks are the only ones that NEEDED SSJ.
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Bussani » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:37 pm

Silver Sinspawn wrote:"I'm a toaster, I'll die now, even though I never had a life anyway"
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by MasterVampire » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:50 pm

Maybe because since no one had ever seen a SSJ before and didnt believe it thats why after goku was the first everyone else was then able to get it.

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:57 am

Bussani wrote:
Silver Sinspawn wrote:"I'm a toaster, I'll die now, even though I never had a life anyway"
What's with all the robot-racism on this forum?
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by KakaR0T » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:47 am

SparkyPantsMcGee wrote: Chi-Chi and Bulma couldn't go Super Saiyan! What show where you watching?
Oh that's right. I was thinking of Dragonball Q

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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by MCDaveG » Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:59 am

Yeah that SSJ thing in Buu arc got me really bored.
I remember back in the time, when I first saw DBZ which was at the Buu arc and I tought that SSJ is some upgrade you can build with huge amount of KI, which everyone here have:D
So I was waiting for everyone fighting there to be Super Saiyan, including Krillin:D
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Re: Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

Post by Vagrant_Samurai » Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:01 am

How does Gohan get anything handed to him?

Goku began (serious) training at 12.

Gohan had it easy until he was 4, but that's because Chi-Chi's a bit dissonant with her value system. But then, he gets kidnapped by his uncle, and then by his father's worst enemy. His Dad gets killed saving his life, by the way. He spends 6 months being attacked by dinosaurs, struggling for his life, and exceeding Goku's strength at the time he was 12 by the time he's 5. Why? Because Piccolo's a Sadist and apparently a firm Spartan Warrior that likes to fuck with Gohan. He spends the next six months going through training from Hell by the literal embodiment of evil.

"DODGE!"

He's then forced to watch his Father's closest friends murdered before his 5-Year Old Eyes in horribly brutal fashion. Yamcha gets murdered by a Suicide Bombing Vegetable. Chaotzu suicide bombs a walking tank. Tien gets his arm knocked the fuck off, and then kills himself with a suicide attack on aforementioned walking tank. (Notice the Theme?) You the know the guy who kidnapped him and pretty much put him through horrible torture for a year of his toddler life? Gohan appears to be suffering a form of Stockholm Syndrome and views him as a Surrogate Father. Oh, and he gets blown to bits by saving the little boy's life from an energy blast by the Walking Tank.

Not even close to done yet. Probably do to the whole Zenkai nonsense, Gohan just gets stronger from all this. If not just from the physical trauma but the sheer psychological abuse. he then has to see his Father, who had been MURDERED just a year before, and returned to life, battle Alien Monsters with only one friend remaining to help comfort THE FUCKING TODDLER. Oh? And during the fight with Vegeta, he pretty much gets the shit kicked out of him the entire time. He gets blasted, beaten, and turned into a giant gorilla, then repeat the cycle. He spends quite a bit of time IN THE HOSPITAL recovering from wounds that are inconceivable by human standards.

So, he spends a month in space, and a few weeks on an alien planet searching for Dragon Balls.Why? Because the 5 year old feels indebted to the Demon whom he loved as a father that just happened to sacrifice his life for him. The toddler now suffers from severe survivors guilt, amongst other things. And onto Namek, he gets mind fucked by a green bitch with four eyes. Then attacked by a walking tank. All the while watching as horrible murders are committed against people THAT LOOK EXACTLY LIKE HIS SURROGATE FATHER. Boy, does Toriyama like to mind rape Gohan or what? So, he, Krillin, his father's only surviving friend capable of battle, and VEGETA (Read: The Guy who responsible for about half the shit mentioned already), are fighting against horrendous evil monsters that want to kill them brutally in their most merciful moods.

Now, a five year old has to fight a guy who's at LEAST a few hundred years old and has been oppressing galaxies and destroyed star systems for the lulz. He and Krillin are getting maimed and battered for quite some time. And this is after the whole bit where his father's body was stolen. (Remember? Where has to suffer a very confusing bit of parental abuse? A monster in his father's body is beating the shit out of him. Good memories.) Oh, but joy! Piccolo has returned to life...and then gets beasten apart like everyone else. He watches Vegeta, whom, through more Stockholm syndrome-esque relationships has become close to Gohan, is MURDERED. And so is that adorable little Namek he became so close with.

So, Piccolo about dies AGAIN, right in front of him. Krillin is blasted into oblivion. And he watches his dad FLIP THE FUCK OUT. So his dad gets left behind as he gets forcibly teleported back home to Earth. He just got him back and he's gone already? Poor shit for a five year old. He spends the next two years alone with his mother, and likely Piccolo. And then everything goes to Hell again. Freeza comes back. More firsthand murder experiences by a seven year old boy. His dad comes back looking like a gay clown and then they find out everyone is destined to die in a horrible battle. Cheers. And the kicker? Gohan doesn't. He's suppose to live. Yay for feeling like a jackass.

He then spends more years undergoing training from Hell with His Father(s). Please note, that as a seven year old he's stronger than his FATHER was just two years prior. Getting that strong at this point in the series, HURTS LIKE HELL. So, battle with the homicidal robots. Yamcha gets impaled and someone figures out "Let's not traumatize the kid too much, let's have him rescue rather than fight the psychotic androids". But alas, good things never last. He watches his father succumbs to a horrible virus that slowly kills him. His other Dad almost gets drained of his life by a USSR Soldier. This sounds so easy for Gohan, doesn't it?

He doesn't do much for a while, because Trunks and Vegeta take over the show. But he has to feel his Surrogate father get horribly beaten by a Lego Clone that happens to have his very own cells within. His Biological father pansies out and doesn't help until the last minute. So he's, through a well displayed empathetic link, feeling his father nearly die.

He spends an entire year in a room that's even more Hellish that his normal training. Increased gravity, weak atmosphere, spontaneous glacier attacks, random fires that burn without end, kid stuff really. His Dad forces the seven/eight year old to relive horrible memories that have severely traumatized the kid, to force him to become a Super Saiyan. Which, as mentioned earlier in the series "Pure Hearted Person + Mind Rape = Super Saiyan". Gohan has to deal with his father openly fighting to KILL as the only way to increase his power. Yeah, the nine year old dealing with MANY, MANY, psychological issues that stem from an idiotic and neglectful father and quite a wall of text explaining in bare minimum, gets handed the Super Transformation Easy.

So, the Cell Games pushes Mind Rape more than any real Shonen series aimed at kids should ever go. Gohan LOOSES HIS FUCKING MIND to achieve this power. Goku doesn't really suffer much. Krillin's Dead? I'll wish him back. I'm not emotionally mature enough to actually understand. Vegeta? He's essentially just a spoiled teenage girl with super powers. He gets what he wants by whining enough. (Future and Future Only) Trunks and (Future as well as Present) Gohan pretty much deserve these transformations. No where was this magnificent power handed to Gohan, his entire life was building up to that moment in the Room of Spirit and Time where he could explode in his own RIGHTEOUS fury and come to terms with some issues. Cell...rubs quite a bit of salt on them.

So, frankly, I don't mind it up to the Cell Saga. The Buu Saga as Vegeta ponders quite correctly "Is there a Super Saiyan Bargain Bin Sale?". Goten and Chibi Trunks had it handed to them. Fusion I don't mind, I like the concept and think it's quite cool. Gogeta and Vegetto? Yes, please. Kids running around with absolutely no idea what amazing powers they have really mean? Infuriating.

I understand the Super Saiyan Concept is "Legendary". But honestly, it was a LEGEND. Vegeta had never seen a Super Saiyan before. And, has anyone heard of the Telephone game? Think about our own Legends. How many different versions are there to "The Rape of Persephone"? Hades kidnapped her? She came willingly? Demetear's just a psycho overprotective bitch of a mother? Things change throughout a few thousand years. No one is really sure what the original version was.

And for the case of wild mass guessing, whose to say (Don't bother me with Canon, this is just for the lulz) Brolly's Influence has nothing to do with this? The man OOZES power. Why could his presence alone not leaked power unto Goku? Think about it. The only Saiyans leftover from the Destruction of Vegeta...The Son of the Most Powerful Saiyan and their Leader (Vegeta), Their General and Military Commander (Nappa), A boy who was exposed to Broly's Direct Energy and had genes from a Saiyan Anomaly of Power (Goku), and that idiot Brother of the latter example(Raditz). Vegeta would have very much visited the ruins of his world, were Brolly's residual energy would still be leftover, and probably was around a bit when he was still an infant. Goku was RIGHT THERE THE WHOLE TIME. The TRUE Legend "Shared His Gift" so to speak. But I kid...or do I?

My only problem with the Super Saiyan Phenomena is that no other Races had a catch-up or even a chance to become in the same LEAGUE.

After Cell, no non-Saiyan does ANYTHING, EVER. In the Android bits, the BEST moments come from part-Human, Human, and non-Saiyan aliens. Tien's Neo-Tri Beam against Semi-Perfect Cell was MADE OF WIN. And just before, Piccolo vs 17 was made of WINl. Gohan annihilating the insect with the help of Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, and Piccolo? Made of win. Piccolo opening a can of Green Whupass on 20? Made of win. Trunks delivering a Finish Buster on Vegeta's Ego-maniacal ass? Made of win. Goku and Vegeta do few things worthy of meh in this Saga. Final Flash? Amusing. Shunkan-Ido Kamehameha? Nice. THAT'S IT.

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