Who is Stronger Questions

[Kaboom]

I had an old thread on MFG titled, "figuring out the Boos," and I could have sworn I posted it here on DaizEX too and would have linked to it, but for the life of me I can't find it anywhere. Maybe it was only on MFG after all, which sucks.

Anyway, let's analyze the Boos in chronological order, and compare the circumstances of their power. IT's fairly simple to figure them out when you take it a step at a time.

Kid Boo - The original, un-hindered and un-enhanced little destructive nutball. We'll give him a ranking of 10 to start out with.
Buff Boo - Absorbing the South Kaioshin may have affected his personality somewhat, but it seems it granted him extra power.(1) If we assume Southy was at least matching Boo's power in order to give him a hard time and prompt absorption, that'd make Buff Boo a 20.
Fat Boo - But then, absorbing the Grand Kaioshin and his pure-heartedness not only affected Boo's personality, but drastically changed his form and power. Whether all that extra power was erased or somehow made it inaccessible for Boo, he was now weakened to a level lower than that of the original Kid Boo.(2) We'll assign him a 9.
Skinny Boo - When Fat Boo expelled his inner evil, he expelled "most" of his power along with it. It took physical form as Skinny Boo, and proceeded to kick Mr. Boo's butt. Skinny Boo is the Daimao to Fat Boo's Kami. At the very least, he would be a 5.
Mr. Boo - What remained after Skinny Boo took "most" of the power. A 4.
Super Boo - When Skinny Boo ate and absorbed Fat Boo, he not only regained his complete "Boo-ness," but also much more power and a form better suited to using it. Only Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks could match him, and only Ultimate Gohan was his clear (un-fused) superior. We'll give Super Boo a 15. (3)
Gotenks-Boo and Gohan-Boo - These guys aren't really related to the debate at hand, but should be included anyway. We'll assume Gotenks is a 15 to match Super Boo, Gohan's a 20 to stomp him, and Piccolo's a 3. Gotenks-Boo is a 33, and Gohan-Boo is a 38. Super Vegetto would take too many digits to list here. With everybody soon removed from him, Boo reverts back. However, he somehow retains his "complete being" essence along with his power, and ends up as Kid Boo instead of Evil Boo. (4)


(1) Goku and Vegeta clearly note that Buff Boo's power is increasing compared to it just prior as Super Boo. However, that power seems to drop considerably when Boo's finished transforming, as both are immediately confident they could take on Kid Boo. He proves more trouble than initially thought, but still a match for SSj3 Goku. So it's clear and obvious that Buff Boo is far stronger than Kid.

(2) Super Saiyan 3 Goku feigns incompetence to Piccolo, but later retcons himself by admitting he could have beaten Fat Boo if he'd wanted to. This is compared to Kid Boo whom Goku matches in battle, but would require a prepped, full-power attack to finish off.

(3) - Goku estimated a Super Saiyan fusion of Goten and Trunks to be strong enough to tango with Fat Boo (and thus somewhere around SSj2 level, at the very least), so a subsequent Super Saiyan 3 version of that fusion would be FAR stronger than himself. Super Saiyan 3 Goku determined that Super Boo was far too strong for he or Vegeta to battle without using Fusion themselves.

(4) - If anything, this is the only minor plot hole in the entire thing. There may not be any good explanation for it, but it's there.

[Godo]

The Potara doesn't literally multiply powers together. Kibitoshin's power proves this.

Yeah, people seem to forger Rou Kaioshin's line about Goku and Vegeta being rivals, that it could be a reason for the massive power boost.

He isn't stated to be stronger than Kid Buu. The only thing stated about Buff Buu's power is he's stronger than Super Buu.

When Super Buu is reverting to Kid Buu, and we see the Buff form, Goku says nervously "His Power is Increasing!".
Then we get the line: "He is smaller!" followed by "We can handle him!".
If you don't get the huge mass of evidence in that scene alone, I'll try to simplify it:

FAT BUU: Goku confidently smashed him around, and stated that he could have won.
SUPER BUU: Goku said that if he, together with Vegeta would try to fight him (when they are inside his guts), they would definitely lose.
KID BUU: Goku stated that they could handle him when they first saw him. Goku once again stated that if he could charge up his power they could defeat him. Goku and Vegeta didn't even consider fighting him togehter, they went solo on his ass.

To further back up why Goku's words should be taken as true, is the following estimations by him that were right:

- He couldn't defeat Cell. In fact, noone could, but Gohan.
- Gohan had the power to defeat Cell. And he did.
- He knew that Gohan could defeat Dabra, although it would be a close match. Gohan was even with Dabra.
- He knew that Yakon was easy to defeat. He defeated him easily.
- He knew that Pui Pui was much weaker than Vegeta. He was right.
- He knew that Goten fusing with Trunks would give a fusion that would be able to defeat Fat Buu. He was right.

He has a good sense about his opponents, that's for sure. So I think I can rest my case.
Still you have to give any evidence from the manga where it's stated that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu.
Give me actual evidence, rather than just trying to figure out how strong South Kaioshin was.
Most of my post consisted of evidence from the manga. I expect you to try to counter my post with some respect and with some real evidence, instead of speculations.

[rereboy]

snip

There are only 2 plotholes which don`t fit.

The one you mentioned, and South Kaioshin. If South Kaioshin was strong enough to give trouble to Kid Buu he should have been able to remove the Z sword.

That and the fact that Buu reverts to Kid Buu and not Evil (grey) Buu are the only inconsistencies. But I believe that those inconsistencies are basically Toriyama`s fault. Everything else seems right and any other theory makes much less sense than this one to me (the theory that Kabom put up).

(I especially liked the fact that who made Buff Buu stronger than Super Buu, making it coherent to Goku and Vegeta`s statement that he was gaining power when his previous form was Super Buu).

[Kaboom]

The one you mentioned, and South Kaioshin. If South Kaioshin was strong enough to give trouble to Kid Buu he should have been able to remove the Z sword.

Ah, you're right. 'Course, there could be other answers to that. If the unknown enemy from millenia ago were an enemy of the Kaioshin, then the sword might have been cursed or something to specifically prevent any Kaio or Kaioshin from pulling it out. There's also the old "Ki =/= physical strength" idea to fall back on, meaning that the Kaioshin could all have amazing Ki prowess and abilities but be kinda sucky in the physical strength department. Who knows?

[Savage68]

It never actually said that all of the Kaioshin tried to lift up the Z-Sword. It was only stated that whoever tried to lift it up failed. If South Kaioshin was already the strongest in the universe, he didn't have much of a reason to bother lifting the thing up in the first place. Why would he need more power when he already had boatloads of it?

[rereboy]

It never actually said that all of the Kaioshin tried to lift up the Z-Sword. It was only stated that whoever tried to lift it up failed. If South Kaioshin was already the strongest in the universe, he didn't have much of a reason to bother lifting the thing up in the first place. Why would he need more power when he already had boatloads of it?

If that`s the case, then he probably felt very dumb for not trying it when he faced Kid buu

[Savage68]

I doubt Kid Buu would ever give him the chance to.

[goku the krump dancer]

I don't think the manga ever says that South Kaioshin gave Kid Buu Trouble, just that he was absorbed and that was that.

[rereboy]

I don't think the manga ever says that South Kaioshin gave Kid Buu Trouble, just that he was absorbed and that was that.

Yes, but exactly why would he absorb him? We only saw Buu absorb people when he was in trouble. So, its possible that South Kaioshin was actually being somewhat of a challenge, at least.

[Zephyr]

Only Super Buu was shown needing to absorb people. He was more calculating, while Kid Buu was mindless. I doubt anything that Kid Buu does has any sort of long term strategy behind it; if it did, he would have absorbed Goku and Vegeta. He probably absorbed South Kaioshin, and Daikaioh for that matter, as a completely spontaneous decision.

[jackjack]

Majin Buu absorptions are additions, which Cell's aren't.

You're not getting the point.

Even if SK = 10% of Kid Boo's strength, he would still get 10% stronger, and Buff Boo would end up being 1.1x stronger than Kid Boo.

So again, where the hell the notion of SK needing to be SSJ3 tier is even from?

[Savage68]

I don't think the manga ever says that South Kaioshin gave Kid Buu Trouble, just that he was absorbed and that was that.

Yes, but exactly why would he absorb him? We only saw Buu absorb people when he was in trouble. So, its possible that South Kaioshin was actually being somewhat of a challenge, at least.

He never tried to absorb Goku, and Goku was his equal in power. So unless South Kaioshin is equal to or at least stronger than Kid (which we can both agree he isn't), Buu's decision to absorb him wasn't one made because he was having difficulty in the fight. He just did it to be doing it.

[Vegeta Jr]

Lifting the Z sword isn't about strength otherwise Goku could have done it easily, it's about Gohan being destined to do it.

Also are you trying to tell me Buu with the combined powers of Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan (who at this point is THE single strongest person in the entirety of Dragon Ball) is weaker than Kid Buu?

[Savage68]

Lifting the Z sword isn't about strength otherwise Goku could have done it easily, it's about Gohan being destined to do it.

If it really was, Gohan wouldn't have needed to turn Super Saiyan. He wouldn't have had trouble with it at all, really. Like Kibito and Kaioshin said, you need to have a certain amount of power in order to release it. Goku had trouble moving it around compared to Gohan, because at the time, Gohan had already been training with it. Base Gohan was stronger than Base Goku.

Also are you trying to tell me Buu with the combined powers of Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan (who at this point is THE single strongest person in the entirety of Dragon Ball) is weaker than Kid Buu?

None of those people matter except for Gohan. And we're talking about Super Buu, not Buuhan.

[Bussani]

Lifting the Z sword isn't about strength otherwise Goku could have done it easily, it's about Gohan being destined to do it.

But...Goku did lift it quite easily. It looks like he swung it on his first try with less effort than Gohan did on his first try, if you ask me.

Also are you trying to tell me Buu with the combined powers of Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan (who at this point is THE single strongest person in the entirety of Dragon Ball) is weaker than Kid Buu?

I don't think anyone said that.

[Majin Buu]

Buu explanation

This should be stickied.

(4) - If anything, this is the only minor plot hole in the entire thing. There may not be any good explanation for it, but it's there.[/i]

This is how I've always explained it.

Evil Buu is just the personification of Fat Buu's evil, an extension of Fat Buu as opposed to an individual transformation. As such he effectively ceased to exist as an entity when he rejoined with Mr.Buu by eating him, much like how Kami effectively ceased to exist when he rejoined with Piccolo. As Super Buu, Buu's evil is in control, but Evil Buu as an entity no longer exists because he was just the personification of Fat Buu's evil. So when Mr.Buu was pulled from Super Buu, he turned into Kid Buu and not Evil Buu because Evil Buu as an entity doesn't exist anymore. I think if Super Buu somehow managed to steam out all of his evil like Fat Buu did, then Evil Buu would return, but this Evil Buu would look like some variation of Super Buu because he would have come from Super Buu as opposed to the Evil Buu that we saw earlier, who came from Fat Buu.

[Vegeta Jr]

I think Buuhan would still have the power increase from Trunks Goten and Piccolo, there is no reason he wouldn't.

[Questrider]

@Kaboom-

You, along with everyone else seem to misinterpret the scene in which Super Buu turns to Buff Buu, then on to Kid Buu.
Let me clarify and finish by saying: In my opinion.
Likewise, the way you are interpreting this particular scene IS speculation, OPINION, and is not rooted in any kind of fact whatsoever.

We can ALL agree that when Super Buu reverted to his Buff Buu form, he was said to be INCREASING in power.
In no way, shape or form do Goku or Vegeta EVER say he got weaker during the next transformation. Not once.
Vegeta says: Look at our little friend here.
Goku: Yeah, we can take him!

How is it that everyone thinks they are talking about a power level here??
It was a clear reference to his SIZE and his SIZE ONLY.
Read the quote again or watch the scene again and tell me what makes more sense: My perspective on the scene or yours?

If they were talking about his power level, I think they would have said something along the lines of:
Hey, his power level went down, followed by: We can take him.

Until we can get past this, as I believe this is central to the argument, I don’t see how we can continue the debate since if I am right about what I think Goku and Vegeta were talking about, then Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, case closed. Simply because his power level was never stated to have gone down.
Goku further lends to the proof by stating later: that this incarnation of Buu is the strongest opponent he has ever faced.

I am going by the FUNimation anime version so if it says something different in Japanese, then this info should be known and posted.

[Savage68]

I think Buuhan would still have the power increase from Trunks Goten and Piccolo, there is no reason he wouldn't.

The power of base Saiyans and Piccolo means absolutely nothing to someone SSJ3-tier or above it. Let alone Buuhan, of all people...

And I'm starting to think the topic creator is trolling.

[Questrider]

I think Buuhan would still have the power increase from Trunks Goten and Piccolo, there is no reason he wouldn't.

The power of base Saiyans and Piccolo means absolutely nothing to someone SSJ3-tier or above it. Let alone Buuhan, of all people...

And I'm starting to think the topic creator is trolling.

How am I trolling by coming up with legitimate arguments?
How am I trolling by forming an opinion, the same as everyone else here?

Exactly, how am I trolling?
Just because you don't agree with me? Just because I am presenting a different view than yourself?