Who is Stronger Questions

[Senzu_Bean]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Translation: "Everybody's closed minded because they don't agree with me!"

Does it applies to you? I don't really know. I'm not that active in here to know you.

[Bussani]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Translation: "Everybody's closed minded because they don't agree with me!"

Does it applies to you? I don't really know. I'm not that active in here to know you.

I'm not sure what I'm being asked here. Could you rephrase it?

[Xyex]

Anybody else notice that Kaioshins seem to be the cause of every problem regarding strength compairsons in the Boo saga?

1) Kaioshin is both lightyears beyond SSJ2 Gohan, but not as strong as SSJ Gohan. Just because.
2) Potara multiplies the strength of two people, which is how it is stronger than fusion dance. The exception is with Kibito and Kaioshin. Just because.
3) South Kaioshin is both weaker than SSJ Gohan, but strong enough to increase Kid Boo's strength to a level greater than Super Boo. Just because.
4) Whenever someone is absorbed by Boo, their strength, personality and intelligence gets absorbed as well. Except for the Dai Kaioshin. Just because.

Kaioshins need a smack. Just because.

If that weren't so large, I would sig it.

*Buu explanation*

Pretty good, but I think it could use some modification. Like so:

SSJ3 Goku
Our base line for everything. We'll put him at 1,000

Kid Buu
The original, most evil, violent, and destructive Buu. Goku thought he could defeat him if given time to reach full power at SSJ3 and fire off a strong attack, but otherwise he was proving at least even, likely stronger, than Goku, so we'll put him down at 1,100.

Buff Buu
Implied stronger than Kid Buu by the fact that Kaioshin didn't claim a decrease in Buu's power until the Dai Kaioshin was absorbed. And, IIRC, phrased it in such a way as to imply only the Dai Kaioshin caused the power reduction. For the Kaioshin's powers we know that Kaioshin is stronger significantly than the base Saiya-jins, but still somewhat weaker than SSJ Gohan, and that the South Kaioshin was the strongest of them all. So if we figure SSJ Gohan is at 300 then he'd be a 250, so that puts Buff Buu at 1,350.

Fat Buu
Stated to be weaker than Kid Buu. Weaker than SSJ3 Goku, too, as Goku had no trouble dealing with him. This is the result of absorbing the Dai Kaioshin, who's purity weakened Buu and made him playful, instead of a destructive pure evil killing machine. I'd say it's likely he negated the South Kaioshin's influence and then reduced Buu's power by a level comparable to his own power. As the South Kaioshin was the strongest, we know the Dai Kaioshin has to be under 250. I think 175 works well here, so that puts Fat Buu at 925.

Skinny Buu
Skinny Buu is the evil part of Fat Buu. Probably the hardest one to place. I could see this going one of three ways, none of which really change the outcome, but I'll list them all anyway.

- One: "Mr. Buu" is the Dai Kaioshin and the South Kaioshin combined in "Buu Form" which would mean he's equal to their combined powers. That being a total of 425. That leaves Skinny Buu to be 500

- Two: "Mr. Buu" is just the Dai Kaioshin in "Buu Form" which means Skinny Buu is the rest of the power, putting him at 750.

- Three: "Mr. Buu" Gets all of Daikaioshin's power and a little bit of the South Kaioshin's, but not all of that. Something around a 60/40 split. So he's at 555

Mr. Buu
Weakest version of Buu, end result of losing his evil. He's either the Dai Kaioshin, the Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin, or the Dai Kaioshin and part of the South Kaioshin. That means either 425, 175, or 370, depending on if One, Two, or Three is right.

Super Buu
End result of Skinny Buu absorbing Fat Buu. This seems to re-work the power management inside of Buu's body, thus granting him greater power. I think the most logical reasoning for this, especially considering the temporary emergence of Buff Buu when Fat Buu is removed, is that the Dai Kaioshin's negation of the South Kaioshin's power is, well, negated. So we take Fat Buu's 925, add South Kaioshin's 250, and end up with Super Buu's power of 1,175.

Super Buu 2 and 3
These two would be harder to place than Skinny Buu if not for the obvious fact that they're the strongest forms of Buu. Gotenks is near on par with Super Buu, I'd say a 1,150. So Super Buu 2 would be at least a 2,325. Meanwhile, Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Buu, enough so that Buu has no chance. I'd say a 1,500 level works, making Super Buu 3's minimum level over 2,700.

And then, of course, we get Kid Buu again when everyone is removed. IMO, it's a result of the 'reordering' that occurred. South Kaioshin was shoved into 'Fat Buu' along with the Dai Kaioshin, and stored inside the pod inside Super Buu. This is what allowed him to draw on the South Kaioshin's power despite the Daio Kaioshin's presence. He had a temporary 'ghost image' of his stronger buff form once the Dai Kaioshin's influence was removed, but as the South Kaioshin's influence was also removed it faded out quickly. As all of the 'good' stuff had been shoved into Fat Buu so as to avoid 'contamination' of Super Buu, it become disconnected from him when Fat Buu was, thus resulting in his reversion to his pure state of Kid Buu.

[rereboy]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Of course they were, in terms of strength.

The only reason why Kid Buu had the upper hand was because of his apparent infinite ability to regenerate and stamina. But their strength was pretty similar.

That`s actually why Goku thought that the if he could concentrate all his power and attack with it, he would destroy Kid Buu completely.

[Senzu_Bean]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Of course they were, in terms of strength.

The only reason why Kid Buu had the upper hand was because of his apparent infinite ability to regenerate and stamina. But their strength was pretty similar.

That`s actually why Goku thought that the if he could concentrate all his power and attack with it, he would destroy Kid Buu completely.

That is why Piccolo is stronger than Raditz when he fought him. Wait! What I'm saying. He wasn't! This doesn't make any sense at all.

[Kaboom]

That is why Piccolo is stronger than Raditz when he fought him. Wait! What I'm saying. He wasn't! This doesn't make any sense at all.

Unrelated. Goku and Piccolo working together couldn't lay a finger on Raditz, and could ONLY hurt him at all with the Makankosappo. Whereas Goku was fighting evenly, blow-for-blow and blast-for-blast, with Kid Boo, but Boo's regeneration kept Goku from creating any lasting damage.

In fact, Goku could have even been Boo's superior in that battle. But being even with or even slightly stronger than a Boo isn't enough. You need to generate something much, MUCH stronger than them in order to win. If you don't completely disintegrate every last bit of it, then he'll just keep coming back. Gathering the power to do THAT is the only thing SSj3 Goku fell short of doing.

[Majin Buu]

It seems more often that not that people like to include all the facts that support their own claims while conveniently disregarding any counter argument that is actually worth debating.

And it seems more often than not that people try to twist known statements into things they clearly don't mean and known actions into things they clearly weren't in order to create arguments that support their viewpoint . When you reach that point you're just grasping at straws.

Anyways, I'd like to see someone that believes Kid Buu is the strongest create a similar power scaling to the one Kaboom and Xyex have and have it make as much sense and leave as little holes as theirs.

[Senzu_Bean]

But Goku was fighting evenly, blow-for-blow and blast-for-blast, with Kid Boo, but Boo's regeneration kept Goku from creating any lasting damage.

In fact, Goku could have even been Boo's superior in that battle.

Kaboom, you should know by now since Juub, on MFG, completely refute every single of your awkward arguments.

That is why I no longer debate this kind of stuff. I simple now stay on the outer ring laughing at such silliness.

[Majin Buu]

That is why I no longer debate this kind of stuff. I simple now stay on the outer ring laughing at such silliness.

Then why are you bothering to tell him that his arguments are awkward and have been refuted? Seems to me if you truly wanted to stay out of it you wouldn't bother saying anything at all.

[Kaboom]

Kaboom, you should know by now since Juub, on MFG, completely refute every single of your awkward arguments.

... Ri~i~i~ght. MFG, with all its hostile group-think, no longer exists. Why should I care?

That is why I no longer debate this kind of stuff. I simple now stay on the outer ring laughing at such silliness.

Well, unlike on MFG, here I have the right to say: Please don't get a cocky and condescending attitude towards your fellow members. You are not their intellectual superior just because you have a different opinion on the inner workings of a fantasy world designed for 12-year-olds.

[Senzu_Bean]

That is why I no longer debate this kind of stuff. I simple now stay on the outer ring laughing at such silliness.

Then why are you bothering to tell him that his arguments are awkward and have been refuted?

"That is why I no longer debate".

The key word is "debate". I'm not debating with him. I'm simple pointing to him that his arguments have been refuted long ago and he knows it. Though he seems to ignore it.

Why should I care?

Cause you know your arguments are flawed. You didn't have anything left to post when Juub refuted everything single thing you said concerned Majin Buu's power. You should know better after he started to ignore you because of your annoyance. But looks like you don't. Shame on you!

[Majin Buu]

Thing is, you're still taking part in this fiasco by going out of your way to tell him he's wrong. Doesn't seem to me like you truly want to stay on the "outer ring".

Also, you are debating with him. You're debating him about the validity of his arguments.

[Kaboom]

Cause you know your arguments are flawed. You didn't have anything left to post when Juub refuted everything single thing you said concerned Majin Buu's power. You should know better after he started to ignore you because of your annoyance. But looks like you don't. Shame on you!

Wait wait wait.

You started inviting arguments by making snippy little remarks which did little more than chide people for having a position differing from your own. You can't seem to stand on your own two feet well enough to have a debate when people address those comments. So now you rather try to attack the credibility of the person you're debating with. You're trying to scold me for posting on a topic, stating that I should "know better" because some random obnoxious guy from an on-the-whole obnoxious forum that no longer exists thought he was better than me?

Not cool. This isn't MFG. This "I know better than you so you should just shut up" attitude is not how we roll on DaizEX.

Thing is, you're still taking part in this fiasco by going out of your way to tell him he's wrong. Doesn't seem to me like you truly want to stay on the "outer ring".

This too. Admittedly, I'm not really helping by granting you the attention.

Now does this thread have any purpose left to serve? Shall we stop trying to make it into a "Mini-MFG" and start being a little more respectful?

[Senzu_Bean]

... because some random obnoxious guy from an on-the-whole obnoxious forum that no longer exists thought he was better than me?

Wait! I don't know nor care each of you is better (whatever that means) and I too don't know what that has anything to do with the fact he is/was right and you are wrong.

I swear I don't understand... when this kind of attitude continue to persist on Dragonball community definitely debates like this won't be able to accomplish anything.

[VegettoEX]

Related to the question(s) at hand...

Why is it so difficult for fans to have this type of discussion without egos flying out of control? It's not even a "separation" issue for the most part (fans of one version versus fans of the other, though that clearly comes into play when presenting evidence).

It's one reason why we halfway, non-explicitly frown upon this type of discussion -- it doesn't seem to go anywhere. I am fully convinced that DragonBall just is not the kind of franchise that has the writing skill and planning to support the "fact"-based discussions that some fans seem to want to have... and even when they acknowledge they are not talking about facts and instead talking solely about hypothetical situations and circumstances, the egos burn wild because someone's interpretation does not fit with someone else's interpretation which does not fit in with a set list of facts which itself does not mesh with another set list of facts straight from the author.

Again, it may be the subject for an entirely separate discussion thread... and it may sound silly coming from someone like me whose job has been to be critical of certain aspects of the franchise for well over a decade...

... but why can't you be nice to each other? I don't get it. Kaboom, I'll even call you out as doing a poor job in moderating it by taking pot-shots at other fans and their place of origin with regard to where they used to (still do? who knows?) post in these kinds of threads. You tell people to be kind and accepting, but wrap it in back-handed insults. Not cool, man... though I certainly understand your frustration. Leave that to me . I can be the "bad guy", here, if you'd like.

(Since you folks want to talk "debate", one of the silly strategies I see being tossed out time and time again is to over-explain your point so that it seems it holds more weight. Come on, now. Boil down what you're saying and don't try to look all fancy, because it's hilariously counter-productive. Brevity is the soul of wit.)

[Questrider]

Ok...

Going to try and bring some new arguments to the table...
But first:
I really want to go back to the scene where Buff Buu becomes Kid Buu since I have a few things to add.
Again, Vegeta states: Look at our little friend.
Goku: Yeah, we can take him.

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)
He went from being tall, to buff, to SMALL. Does a taller person SEEM more menacing? Yes.
After all, Freeza was similarly misinterpreted when he took his final form. Piccolo told the kids: Don’t underestimate his appearance.

While Buu's transformation is in progress:
Goku: Uh, Vegeta, isn’t his chi getting bigger?

WHEN do they ever say Kid Buu’s power level EVER went down?

And when were these points disputed with actual facts? All I’m hearing is: They were talking about his power level.
I say: Prove it. Prove it with some dialogue as convincing as what I just threw out.
Vegeta said: “..little friend”. NOT= little power level.
How are we still misinterpreting this line?

Pretend you know nothing about the story and simply read that little bit of dialogue. Would you think they were talking about someone’s size?
How can you not?

Again, while the transformation is in progress we see Kibitokai scared out of his mind stating that this Buu is the worst of all. He’s completely in a state of PANIC.
Does this count for nothing?

Point blank: Goku and Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu at first glance because of his size. Goku did the same thing with Super Buu. Caught up in the moment, they both make an error(s).
Can they NOT make mistakes? Can they not make a bad assessment from time to time?

Furthermore: Goku and Vegeta DID defeat Super Buu without having to go SSJ3 OR SSJ2. After all, it was Vegeta who tore the Fat Buu free.
Sure, they did not have to duke it out with Super Buu but the fact remains: THEY DEFEATED THAT FORM while in Buu’s body. They escaped only to face a TOUGHER ENEMY.

Super Buu ALSO defeated BOTH Gotenks SSJ3 AND Mystic Gohan. He may not have been able to defeat them physically but they were still DEFEATED and at the SAME time, no less. Super Buu used cunning which is exactly what Vegeta did. Vegeta’s move was more of a gamble really, but it WORKED.

Let’s jump ahead to a bit more dialogue.
When Goku SSJ3 is fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta talks about how NO ONE ELSE but Goku can fight Kid Buu. Doesn’t that imply that no one is stronger than Goku?? And if Vegeta did not mean the strongest, then clearly he meant that Goku was the best fighter or at the very least, the best suited for the task.
He even states: You are the champion. How are we tossing this out?

If all you have is: “Super Buu will kill us” stated by Goku earlier, then you are really leaving no room for the dialogue or events that contradicts this later. And besides, Goku was wrong about that statement as this was proven with FACTS by my point above AND by Goku and Vegeta’s own ACTIONS.

@Godo-
Super Buu was NOT the only being that Goku thought the Potara could or should bring down. He states later on during his fight with Kid Buu:
“The Potara could have done it” AGAIN admitting he had made an error by trying to be “too cool” and trying to take on Kid Buu without it. That Saiyan pride or hanging around Vegeta too long will do that to you.

Lastly, how is it that the obvious “pattern” to DBZ is casually thrown out the window?
The last villain in the arc was ALWAYS the strongest!!! When was this otherwise?

Lastly, I am NOT a Kid Buu fan boy. Not at all.
Super Buu was far more entertaining in my opinion because at least he talked from time to time.

EDIT:
I agree that the debate can be kept civil...

[hleV]

Again, Vegeta states: Look at our little friend.
Goku: Yeah, we can take him.

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)
He went from being tall, to buff, to SMALL. Does a taller person SEEM more menacing? Yes.
After all, Freeza was similarly misinterpreted when he took his final form. Piccolo told the kids: Don’t underestimate his appearance.

While Buu's transformation is in progress:
Goku: Uh, Vegeta, isn’t his chi getting bigger?

WHEN do they ever say Kid Buu’s power level EVER went down?

As Buff Buu, Buu's powerlevel kept growing. However, when he became Kid Buu, his powerlevel dropped. Vegeta says "Look at our little friend." Yes, Vegeta's referring to Buu's size. However, he wouldn't be so confident if Buu's powerlevel didn't drop. Buu getting smaller just gave Vegeta an idea of how to insult Buu in a perfect way. If Kid Buu was so strong, Goku wouldn't have agreed that "Yeah, we can take him." NO WAY. Goku may be stupid, but not when it comes to fighting.

[Bussani]

How are they NOT talking about his size? (This is a HUGE key to the argument)

Of course the comment relates to his size, but if his ki hadn't gone down at all, like you're suggesting, then Goku and Vegeta must have misplaced their brains. If you want to believe that, then feel free, but it still doesn't sound like the most likely interpretation to me. Please respect my right to disagree with you, as I respect yours to disagree with me.

WHEN do they ever say Kid Buu’s power level EVER went down?

See above. I don't think they'd relax and joke about his size if his ki was bigger than the Buu's that they said would kill them in a fight.

And when were these points disputed with actual facts? All I’m hearing is: They were talking about his power level.
I say: Prove it. Prove it with some dialogue as convincing as what I just threw out.

I'm sorry, have you provided any proof for anything you've said? So far you've just countered everything everyone's said with different theories. You say that all of their evidence is open to interpretation, but so is yours. You're allowed to have your different theories; why don't you seem able to allow others to have theirs?

How are we still misinterpreting this line?

See the arrogance here? You're not acting impartial at all. You think your interpretation is the only one that can possibly be right.

Pretend you know nothing about the story and simply read that little bit of dialogue.

This is the worst argument ever. You forget everything you know about the story and re-read the part about Super Buu being stronger than them.

Again, while the transformation is in progress we see Kibitokai scared out of his mind stating that this Buu is the worst of all. He’s completely in a state of PANIC.
Does this count for nothing?

Kaioshin also panicked over Puipui.

Point blank: Goku and Vegeta underestimated Kid Buu at first glance because of his size. Goku did the same thing with Super Buu. Caught up in the moment, they both make an error(s).
Can they NOT make mistakes? Can they not make a bad assessment from time to time?

Again, it seems unlikely. They said that Super Buu was stronger than either of them. His ki went up. If a few seconds later it was still up that high and they thought they could win, then they're both imbeciles and forgot everything they know about the story.

Furthermore: Goku and Vegeta DID defeat Super Buu without having to go SSJ3 OR SSJ2. After all, it was Vegeta who tore the Fat Buu free.
Sure, they did not have to duke it out with Super Buu but the fact remains: THEY DEFEATED THAT FORM while in Buu’s body.

Super Buu ALSO defeated BOTH Gotenks SSJ3 AND Mystic Gohan. He may not have been able to defeat them physically but they were still DEFEATED and at the SAME time, no less. Super Buu used cunning which is exactly what Vegeta did. Vegeta’s move was more of a gamble really, but it WORKED.

That has nothing to do with strength, does it? If Kuririn had used that remote to blow up/deactivate 18, would that mean Kuririn was stronger than 18? Oh, and I guess Yajirobe is stronger than Vegeta since he cut off his tail and forced him to transform back.

Let’s jump ahead to a bit more dialogue.
When Goku SSJ3 is fighting Kid Buu, Vegeta talks about how NO ONE ELSE but Goku can fight Kid Buu. Doesn’t that imply that no one is stronger than Goku?? And if Vegeta did not mean the strongest, then clearly he meant that Goku was the best fighter or at the very least, the best suited for the task.
He even states: You are the champion. How are we tossing this out?

If all you have is: “Super Buu will kill us” stated by Goku earlier, then you are really leaving no room for the dialogue or events that contradicts this later.

Then that's a bit of a stalemate then, isn't it? If all you have to go against the "Super Buu will kill us" statement is Vegeta rambling to himself?

And besides, Goku was wrong about that statement as this was proven with FACTS by my point above AND by Goku and Vegeta’s own ACTIONS.

So Kuririn would have been stronger than 18, then? Okay.

Super Buu was NOT the only being that Goku thought the Potara could or should bring down. He states later on during his fight with Kid Buu:
“The Potara could have done it” AGAIN admitting he had made an error by trying to be “too cool” and trying to take on Kid Buu without it. That Saiyan pride or hanging around Vegeta too long will do that to you.

But what does that prove? That Vegetto could have beaten Kid Buu easily? No duh.

Lastly, how is it that the obvious “pattern” to DBZ is casually thrown out the window?
The last villain in the arc was ALWAYS the strongest!!! When was this otherwise?

Assistant Black was weaker than Tao Pai Pai, even with his big robot.

I'm still not sure what you want to get out of this. This is starting to go in circles. If we interpret things differently then we're probably never going to agree, which is just fine by me, but it seems like you believe that your own interpretation is so right that you have to make everyone else agree with it.

[Questrider]

^You completely missed my point.
The argument was not about Goku and Vegeta defeating Super Buu.
It was about Goku being wrong about DEFEATING Super Buu. (All I did was try to set that up for you.)

Also, what you provided WAS a good interpretation of the transformation scene but I guess we agree to disagree as far as what Goku and Vegeta meant. (Or what was implied)

Bottom line:
It was flat out stated several times in the anime that Kid Buu was the strongest. Everything else takes a back seat to these comments.
If you don't believe me, re-watch it.

One example was when Goku saved Vegeta from getting blasted.
Goku steps in, makes his statement and proceeds to transform into SSJ1, then 2, than 3. (granted, the translation is NOT this exact in the manga)

At this point, Goku has faced Fat Buu, Super Buu, (while inside of Buu) and now Kid.

So, should we base the argument on what was said earlier or later?

We will probably never agree in the end, but at least I can say I tried to put forth every possible argument. You guys did the same and maybe we should leave it at that.

And besides, going round and round in circles is making me dizzy.

[rereboy]

Seriously!? Does people still believe Goku was evenly with Kid Buu? More and more what I posted above hold true.

Of course they were, in terms of strength.

The only reason why Kid Buu had the upper hand was because of his apparent infinite ability to regenerate and stamina. But their strength was pretty similar.

That`s actually why Goku thought that the if he could concentrate all his power and attack with it, he would destroy Kid Buu completely.

That is why Piccolo is stronger than Raditz when he fought him. Wait! What I'm saying. He wasn't! This doesn't make any sense at all.

Not at all. Piccolo was being slaughtered even with the help of Goku, when he tried to fight Raditz two on one.

Goku was standing his ground against Kid Buu one on one. And Kid Buu was also standing his ground against Goku one on one, so their power was similar or approximate.
If they weren`t similar or approximate, Kid Buu would have done with Goku what he did to Vegeta who was clearly outclassed (if Goku was inferior) or Goku would have done to Kid Buu what Mystic Gohan did to Super Buu (if Kid Buu was inferior).

The only problem for Goku was that, the way things were going, he wouldn`t win, because Kid Buu just kept on regenerating and didn`t get tired at all apparently. So, in order to win, he would have to destroy him completely, every atom of his body. And in order to do that, he would have gather in himself a power much superior to Kid Buu`s power to destroy him in one blow. And that was exactly what he tried to do.

Piccolo just had to gather in himself a power capable of piercing Raditz.

It seems to make sense to me...