Super Saiyans Going Too Far?

[caejones]

^ Vagrant_Samurai just won.

Though, to be a bit over-analytical ('cause I'm pretty sure Toriyama didn't intend it this way), Goten and (chibi) Trunks' SSJ-ness seems to fit the progression of things in our society.
"Back in my day, we had to work hard just to blow up a mountain! And there were plenty of crazy killers running around to keep us busy! You kids and your comfortable homes and cheap power don't know how good you've got it!"
XD

[Bussani]

"Back in my day, we had to work hard just to blow up a mountain! And there were plenty of crazy killers running around to keep us busy! You kids and your comfortable homes and cheap power don't know how good you've got it!"

That's a good analogy. I do feel that it's like this, and Dragon Ball isn't the only story that does it. "In the end, a son must do more than his father."

[Blue]

Words

While I don't care much for the sprinkled "hip internet user" speak this rant was still pretty awesome.

[KakaR0T]

So, he spends a month in space, and a few weeks on an alien planet searching for Dragon Balls.

Not to mention he traveled to the planet Namek with BULMA. That in itself would make anyone turn super saiyan.

So his dad gets left behind as he gets forcibly teleported back home to Earth.

And right after he got forcibly teleported back to Earth he right away gets into a brawl with Vegeta (who is mocking his father by the way and getting Gohan very angry and upset) which didn't make matters any better for him considering he got his ass kicked.

[Vagrant_Samurai]

So, he spends a month in space, and a few weeks on an alien planet searching for Dragon Balls.

Not to mention he traveled to the planet Namek with BULMA. That in itself would make anyone turn super saiyan.

The Fact that he didn't commit suicide is what we can all be thankful for.

So his dad gets left behind as he gets forcibly teleported back home to Earth.

And right after he got forcibly teleported back to Earth he right away gets into a brawl with Vegeta (who is mocking his father by the way and getting Gohan very angry and upset) which didn't make matters any better for him considering he got his ass kicked.

Ah, good point my friend. It's been a bit since I've seen the Namek Saga. Good catch. Which is also ironic considering Vegeta cried in remorse when he died, and now he's a prick again.

[Dayspring]

^ Vagrant_Samurai just won.

Though, to be a bit over-analytical ('cause I'm pretty sure Toriyama didn't intend it this way), Goten and (chibi) Trunks' SSJ-ness seems to fit the progression of things in our society.
"Back in my day, we had to work hard just to blow up a mountain! And there were plenty of crazy killers running around to keep us busy! You kids and your comfortable homes and cheap power don't know how good you've got it!"
XD

Not so much our society as the DB fighter's society:

1) When Kamesennin was a fighter, moving a huge boulder was next to impossible, even after decades or even centuries of training. Then come Goku and Krillin who literally move a mountain at ages 12 and 14 after only a few months training.

2) When Goku was a fighter in training, manipulating one's ki was the pinnacle of one's training, handled only by the strongest and most worthy fighters being able to train under God's grace Himself. Then comes Gohan who literally manipulates his ki based on his emotions at age 4 after zero training.

3) When Goku and Vegeta were the strongest Saiyans in history, they became SSJs by doing the impossible: literally surpassing their own maximum potential and manipulating their rage to the point of become the warriors of legend. Then come Goten and Trunks who become SSJs by... hell, it happened so easily when they were so damn young, that we don't even know the details!

EDIT: So basically whenever becomes the standard for the maximum possible strength, the next generation surpasses that with ease in comparison at a young age. Hell:

4) When SSJ3 was the pinnacle of SSJ transformations, it could only be learned by Goku, who "cheated" by achieving it in the afterlife only. Then comes Gotenks who masters it after 15 days of training.

[Vision]

Now that we have successfully agreed that Gohan is a legit Super Saiyan (thanks to the previous rant)

Why dont we start ragging on Toriyama for not portraying him as a psycho who turns evil and ends the world after the cell arc? I mean really Toriyama, did you not know everyone would critically analyze your show and come to the conclusion that you are a child-hating masochist? Gohan's stable mindset is totally un-realistic....

[Rocketman]

Now that we have successfully agreed that Gohan is a legit Super Saiyan (thanks to the previous rant)

No we have not, because for all the bad things that happened, they only make him a Super Saiyan because he has the ~MAJIKU ANGER PAWAH~ that comes free with your mom getting fucked by an alien.

Also, I disagree on one point you made. Goku went Super because he thought Krillin could never be wished back, he outright says this.

[Godo]

Now that we have successfully agreed that Gohan is a legit Super Saiyan (thanks to the previous rant)

No we have not, because for all the bad things that happened, they only make him a Super Saiyan because he has the ~MAJIKU ANGER PAWAH~ that comes free with your mom getting fucked by an alien.

Also, I disagree on one point you made. Goku went Super because he thought Krillin could never be wished back, he outright says this.

And Gohan went Super Saiya-jin because he feared that everyone would die.
And Goku was like, over 20 and Gohan was 9 years old when they went SSJ.

[Vagrant_Samurai]

Now that we have successfully agreed that Gohan is a legit Super Saiyan (thanks to the previous rant)

Why dont we start ragging on Toriyama for not portraying him as a psycho who turns evil and ends the world after the cell arc? I mean really Toriyama, did you not know everyone would critically analyze your show and come to the conclusion that you are a child-hating sadist? Gohan's stable mindset is totally un-realistic....

I am not ragging on Toriyama, I agree with his points for the most part. I just don't like all this nonsense about everyone else ragging on him. Fight Fire with Fire you could say.

No we have not, because for all the bad things that happened, they only make him a Super Saiyan because he has the ~MAJIKU ANGER PAWAH~ that comes free with your mom getting fucked by an alien.

Also, I disagree on one point you made. Goku went Super because he thought Krillin could never be wished back, he outright says this.

You do realize that this IS Dragon Ball, where “Anger = Power”. It's like harassing Tengan Toppa Gurren Lagaan for being overly dramatic and Kamina for being too hammy. That's what the Universe Work.

And I know that, but it wasn't really critical to my argument. It was more throw-away sarcasm.

And since we're doing direct quotations. Didn't Goku say the Super Saiyan Power came to a “Need not a desire.” to Gohan?

Goku's Need: To Have Power Enough to Defeat Freeza. No questions asked, this was a very legitimate Need, and Super Saiyan Power was the only thing that could have done it, aside from the Kaioshin's actually doing something.

Vegeta's Need: To Have Power Enough to Match His Ego. He got it. But it still wasn't nearly as big as his Ego. There was also that bit about Androids coming to kill him, but I doubt Vegeta really cared. So maybe THAT was the need the Super Power was answering to.

Mirai Gohan and Trunks' Need: To Have Power Enough to Stop the Androids. Seems reasonable to me. Considering the only other people who could have done it were dead.

Gohan's Need (SSJ1): In the Dub Anime, I remember him lamenting feeling useless and weak for needing help, not being able to fight, or getting the others hurt. His Need was to be able to Fight and protect the people he loved. Which in DBZ is pretty much the right kind of Need. (Sounds like the same need as Goku had against Freeza. The Latter part, the former isn't Goku's Niche)

So basically whenever becomes the standard for the maximum possible strength, the next generation surpasses that with ease in comparison at a young age.

I would consider that a parallel to our Society in a big way. As Technology advances, it's easier to go forward quicker. You don't go from slingshots to M16's. You gotta take it slow. And then when you get to a certain point, it just kinda explodes.

[Kiyza]

Speaking of Super Saiyans, what would Nappa look like if he went Super Saiyan?

Well, when bald characters in Dragon Ball Online go Super Saiyan, they look like this:

[Piccolo Daimao]

And right after he got forcibly teleported back to Earth he right away gets into a brawl with Vegeta (who is mocking his father by the way and getting Gohan very angry and upset) which didn't make matters any better for him considering he got his ass kicked.

# Fi-i-i-i-ller-r-r-r-r! #

And Gohan went Super Saiya-jin because he feared that everyone would die.

No he didn't. Technically, we don't actually know how Gohan became a Super Saiyan, because we only see brief scenes of Goku and Gohan's training in the Time Chamber after they cut away from the main battle. We pretty much get a scene of Goku telling Gohan to "get mad" ("Imagine that Freeza's trying to kill me" bullshit), then a scene later of Gohan turning a SSJ and barely managing to maintain it for more than 10 seconds. I guess, with three other Super Saiyans, Toriyama didn't feel the need to actually explain how the fourth one (and probably the most important character in the Cell Arc) got it, and it wouldn't really matter anyway, because it's ~GOHAN~ (yeah, I know people usually use that for Goku, but that's probably the simplest way of putting it).

I'll say this again: the anime did SOOOOOO much of a better job explaining how Gohan transformed into a Super Saiyan than the manga. It's rare that I give Toei such credit.

[Godo]

No he didn't. Technically, we don't actually know how Gohan became a Super Saiyan, because we only see brief scenes of Goku and Gohan's training in the Time Chamber after they cut away from the main battle. We pretty much get a scene of Goku telling Gohan to "get mad" ("Imagine that Freeza's trying to kill me" bullshit), then a scene later of Gohan turning a SSJ and barely managing to maintain it for more than 10 seconds. I guess, with three other Super Saiyans, Toriyama didn't feel the need to actually explain how the fourth one (and probably the most important character in the Cell Arc) got it, and it wouldn't really matter anyway, because it's ~GOHAN~ (yeah, I know people usually use that for Goku, but that's probably the simplest way of putting it).

I think that his reason simply was so uncomplicated that it didn't have to be explained.
Right when Goku and Gohan entered the ROSAT, Gohan asks Goku : "Do you think that I can become a SSJ?" and Goku answers "Your future self became one, so you should be able to do that aswell". Those are not exact quotes, mind you.
During three years, Gohan trained with Goku and Piccolo, watching their huge strength, and during those three years, he lived under the pressure of getting stronger, so that everyone wouldn't die. With Goku, Vegeta (whom they couldn't depend on) and Piccolo, he was the only one strong enough to be able keep up.
After seeing how useless he was against the Androids, I think that he had built up enough despair. Three years for nothing.
So, when Goku told him to imagine pretty much "everything that could go wrong", Gohan managed to put that feeling into it, causing rage big enough to make him achieve SSJ.
It's not because of that he is ~GOHAN~, Vegeta's way wasn't either something awesome...he simply got mad at himself for having limitations, like a little bitch. Wow, that's more awkward than Gohan's way of transformation.

It's just that people don't take into account that Gohan is:

1) Around 20 years younger than his fellow fighters
2) Was thrown into the fighting ring at the age of 4
3) Never really made any great difference, even though he worked hard
4) His damn brain until Buu saga isn't developed enough to be able to process the hell he has been through, thus rage is the only thing he feels in dire situations. This influences on his powerlevel. It's some kind of psychological defense mechanism.
5) He did 100 times better than anyone in his age ever, except for Goten and Trunks.


He did actually work hard for his power. Let's go through this shall we:

He was born with a high powerlevel. This is explained as having to do with him being a hybrid. But when he was abducted by Piccolo, he actually didn't know how to access that power. And he learned to do so when he was all alone in the desert for 6 months, fighting for his life against wild animals.
He learned to fight against Piccolo, and improved greatly enough to be a force to be reckoned with against Vegeta and Nappa.
Fast forward a bit. Gohan leaves for Namek. After getting his dormant powers released, he can access more of his power. This power isn't something magically created, it's the power he has worked hard on achieving.
He gets, like, two zenkai during the Namek arc (one after he fought Recoome, another after he was healed by Dende against Freeza). Vegeta gets three (one after his Zarbon fight, one after fighting Recoome, and the last one after Kuririn's blast), Goku gets numerous ones.
And you say that he is sitting on his ass all the time and getting his power on a silver plate?

He trains for three years against Goku and Piccolo, and is still useless. He becomes a SSJ, after Goku and Vegeta, by the same method: RAGE.
Then they find out this little guy has even more power than the rest: His training prior to the Androids arrival and in the ROSAT has paid off. It's simply because of his hard work.
So, with his unstable psyche, he becomes a SSJ2.

7 years later, Gohan's power has decreased. But he still has lots of latent power, which is mentioned again a couple of times by Goku. He gets that released, and becomes powerful.
And he didn't obtain that power by snapping his fingers. It all goes back to all the hard work he has put into his training, even though he almost never had any good results from it.
Also, his training with the Z-sword increased his power to even higher than Goku's in base. So, if he could use SSJ3, he would outclass Goku in power.
So when all the boundaries were released, all his power that he has worked hard for were released.
Of all the Saiya-jins, he always were the only one not trying to cheat himself into having more power with using transformations.

If you don't notice this, you simply just hate the character, and have missed the points in Gohan's story.

[Rocketman]

The points of Gohan's story:

-dun liek fite
-WAAAAAHHHH
-*free power*


Also, I am laughing my ass off at the Mystic upgrade being from Gohan's 'hard work'. That is bullshit of the highest caliber.

[Kaboom]

Also, I am laughing my ass off at the Mystic upgrade being from Gohan's 'hard work'. That is bullshit of the highest caliber.

In fact, it's probably the opposite. The reason there was so much "untapped potential" to draw out was probably because Gohan had been sitting around lazily not tapping into it himself for the past seven years. I have a hunch that such a ritual wouldn't be as comparatively effective with Goku or Vegeta.

[Xyex]

Also, I am laughing my ass off at the Mystic upgrade being from Gohan's 'hard work'. That is bullshit of the highest caliber.

In fact, it's probably the opposite. The reason there was so much "untapped potential" to draw out was probably because Gohan had been sitting around lazily not tapping into it himself for the past seven years. I have a hunch that such a ritual wouldn't be as comparatively effective with Goku or Vegeta.

Didn't the old Kaioshin even say that it wouldn't be worth it for Goku? Something about him already being close to his maximum, and it just being a waste of time for him? I could be remembering this from somewhere else, but I do remember reading about it.

[Vagrant_Samurai]

No he didn't. Technically, we don't actually know how Gohan became a Super Saiyan, because we only see brief scenes of Goku and Gohan's training in the Time Chamber after they cut away from the main battle. We pretty much get a scene of Goku telling Gohan to "get mad" ("Imagine that Freeza's trying to kill me" bullshit), then a scene later of Gohan turning a SSJ and barely managing to maintain it for more than 10 seconds. I guess, with three other Super Saiyans, Toriyama didn't feel the need to actually explain how the fourth one (and probably the most important character in the Cell Arc) got it, and it wouldn't really matter anyway, because it's ~GOHAN~ (yeah, I know people usually use that for Goku, but that's probably the simplest way of putting it).

I think that his reason simply was so uncomplicated that it didn't have to be explained.
Right when Goku and Gohan entered the ROSAT, Gohan asks Goku : "Do you think that I can become a SSJ?" and Goku answers "Your future self became one, so you should be able to do that aswell". Those are not exact quotes, mind you.
During three years, Gohan trained with Goku and Piccolo, watching their huge strength, and during those three years, he lived under the pressure of getting stronger, so that everyone wouldn't die. With Goku, Vegeta (whom they couldn't depend on) and Piccolo, he was the only one strong enough to be able keep up.
After seeing how useless he was against the Androids, I think that he had built up enough despair. Three years for nothing.
So, when Goku told him to imagine pretty much "everything that could go wrong", Gohan managed to put that feeling into it, causing rage big enough to make him achieve SSJ.
It's not because of that he is ~GOHAN~, Vegeta's way wasn't either something awesome...he simply got mad at himself for having limitations, like a little bitch. Wow, that's more awkward than Gohan's way of transformation.

It's just that people don't take into account that Gohan is:

1) Around 20 years younger than his fellow fighters
2) Was thrown into the fighting ring at the age of 4
3) Never really made any great difference, even though he worked hard
4) His damn brain until Buu saga isn't developed enough to be able to process the hell he has been through, thus rage is the only thing he feels in dire situations. This influences on his powerlevel. It's some kind of psychological defense mechanism.
5) He did 100 times better than anyone in his age ever, except for Goten and Trunks.


He did actually work hard for his power. Let's go through this shall we:

He was born with a high powerlevel. This is explained as having to do with him being a hybrid. But when he was abducted by Piccolo, he actually didn't know how to access that power. And he learned to do so when he was all alone in the desert for 6 months, fighting for his life against wild animals.
He learned to fight against Piccolo, and improved greatly enough to be a force to be reckoned with against Vegeta and Nappa.
Fast forward a bit. Gohan leaves for Namek. After getting his dormant powers released, he can access more of his power. This power isn't something magically created, it's the power he has worked hard on achieving.
He gets, like, two zenkai during the Namek arc (one after he fought Recoome, another after he was healed by Dende against Freeza). Vegeta gets three (one after his Zarbon fight, one after fighting Recoome, and the last one after Kuririn's blast), Goku gets numerous ones.
And you say that he is sitting on his ass all the time and getting his power on a silver plate?

He trains for three years against Goku and Piccolo, and is still useless. He becomes a SSJ, after Goku and Vegeta, by the same method: RAGE.
Then they find out this little guy has even more power than the rest: His training prior to the Androids arrival and in the ROSAT has paid off. It's simply because of his hard work.
So, with his unstable psyche, he becomes a SSJ2.

7 years later, Gohan's power has decreased. But he still has lots of latent power, which is mentioned again a couple of times by Goku. He gets that released, and becomes powerful.
And he didn't obtain that power by snapping his fingers. It all goes back to all the hard work he has put into his training, even though he almost never had any good results from it.
Also, his training with the Z-sword increased his power to even higher than Goku's in base. So, if he could use SSJ3, he would outclass Goku in power.
So when all the boundaries were released, all his power that he has worked hard for were released.
Of all the Saiya-jins, he always were the only one not trying to cheat himself into having more power with using transformations.

If you don't notice this, you simply just hate the character, and have missed the points in Gohan's story.

You my friend, get props.

This is pretty much boiling down to -
People who like Gohan vs People who don't like Gohan

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think that his reason simply was so uncomplicated that it didn't have to be explained.
Right when Goku and Gohan entered the ROSAT, Gohan asks Goku : "Do you think that I can become a SSJ?" and Goku answers "Your future self became one, so you should be able to do that aswell". Those are not exact quotes, mind you.
During three years, Gohan trained with Goku and Piccolo, watching their huge strength, and during those three years, he lived under the pressure of getting stronger, so that everyone wouldn't die. With Goku, Vegeta (whom they couldn't depend on) and Piccolo, he was the only one strong enough to be able keep up.
After seeing how useless he was against the Androids, I think that he had built up enough despair. Three years for nothing.
So, when Goku told him to imagine pretty much "everything that could go wrong", Gohan managed to put that feeling into it, causing rage big enough to make him achieve SSJ.
It's not because of that he is ~GOHAN~, Vegeta's way wasn't either something awesome...he simply got mad at himself for having limitations, like a little bitch. Wow, that's more awkward than Gohan's way of transformation.

How was his reason uncomplicated? I just don't get it. It seemed to be a matter of, "Goku, Vegeta and Trunks are the Super Saiyans, let's just make Gohan one because, well, he's the last Saiyan". And remember, Gohan had the most support transforming into a Super Saiyan than anyone else. I don't think in those three years, those emotions even had a part in his Super Saiyan transforming, because I doubt he was even thinking about going SSJ at that time and I doubt Goku was either.
Gohan didn't see how useless he was against the Androids like everyone else. He never even fought them. Yes, he probably knew that he was useless against them, but I don't think it hit him that hard like Vegeta.

I'm sorry, you make a good argument, but I just don't buy it that Goku told him to imagine pretty much "everything could go wrong" and Gohan just went poof, Super Saiyan. Especially since we saw so little of their training. Toriyama obviously didn't put that much thought into it, and neither should you.

Vegeta's transformation is actually more credible than Gohan's because, as we were told, he went through the training from hell, under intense amounts of gravity of up to 300, until he hit his limits and got so angry he became a Super Saiyan. In those three years, he was actually training to become a Super Saiyan, unlike Gohan. You're saying that's "like a little bitch", but you could say that about Goku or Gohan. All of them transformed like little bitches. Vegeta is a little bitch. At least I actually get how he transformed, rather than what happened in the manga with Gohan, where it was a need of "If you're not a Super Saiyan, you can fuck off." I'm not even sure if he would've transformed into a Super Saiyan if it hadn't been for Goku holding his hand every step of the way. He certainly didn't appear the motivation Goku or Vegeta. Granted, Trunks probably didn't either (his transformation was explained even less than Gohan's), but he was living in a state of world peril, with the majority of his friends dead, so I can sort of understand a bit better.

I know this post sounds a bit hypocritical of me, seemingly attacking Gohan's motivations for transforming more than others. It's not because I hate Gohan or anything, just that I still don't know how he transformed.

[Godo]

The points of Gohan's story:

-dun liek fite
-WAAAAAHHHH
-*free power*

Also, I am laughing my ass off at the Mystic upgrade being from Gohan's 'hard work'. That is bullshit of the highest caliber.

Very strong rebuttal. I mean it. It really shone over everyone else's posts.

I'm sorry, you make a good argument, but I just don't buy it that Goku told him to imagine pretty much "everything could go wrong" and Gohan just went poof, Super Saiyan. Especially since we saw so little of their training. Toriyama obviously didn't put that much thought into it, and neither should you.

Fair enough. Let's keep it simple.

It's not because I hate Gohan or anything, just that I still don't know how he transformed.

Goku told Gohan to imagine Freeza killing Piccolo. Gohan put so much thought into it that he got angry over that, as if it really had happened. He managed to transform into a SSJ.
He probably managed to gain the amount of rage that Goku did when he transformed, in some way. Maybe him getting easily angered at injustice has to do with it, making only thinking of such things so much more awful.

[Kendamu]

Ah, good point my friend. It's been a bit since I've seen the Namek Saga. Good catch. Which is also ironic considering Vegeta cried in remorse when he died, and now he's a prick again.

In the original, it wasn't remorse. It was, "Please, Goku. Make Freeza die by Saiyan hands! I beg you!"

So, him being a prick after coming back is no real change.