Who is Stronger Questions

[Bussani]

Has Toriyama ever made any statement regarding Buu Saga strengths at all?

Not really. I don't think he cares, and I can't blame him. Even though I like to think about this stuff and give my own opinions and interpretations, it's not like it makes any difference to the story. Herms said something about it earlier.

This is a great point and so I ask: Is there any interviews posted on this site with Toriyama explaining some of this???
Has he ever been directly asked who is stronger: Kid Buu or Super Buu?

As far as I know, he's never been asked this in any published interview. The closest thing I know of is a Q&A session published in Viz's Shonen Jump, where someone asked him what Boo's power level was (answer: 'really amazing', or something generic like that).

There rarely seem to be any interviews or guides that say, "This guy is stronger than that guy."

[Senzu_Bean]

I ask because South Kaioshin's strength was added to Kid's, not Super's.

This tie up with my original statement. For those who believe South Kaioshin increased Kid Buu's power and the latter is equal to SSJ3 Goku thus SK granted Buu an increase from SSJ3 tier to stronger than Super Buu tier which is slightly inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks which is x times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

I can't believe South Kaioshin got Kid Buu an increase much less an abnormally large increase like that.

But the important thing to note here is that these restraints are mental ones.

Majin Buu restrictions are far from only being mental restrictions. That is supported by clearly statements by the characters, from Goku to Trunks. And the only Buu ever appeared without restrictions is Kid Buu.

[Savage68]

This tie up with my original statement. For those who believe South Kaioshin increased Kid Buu's power and the latter is equal to SSJ3 Goku thus SK granted Buu an increase from SSJ3 tier to stronger than Super Buu tier which is slightly inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks which is x times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

I can't believe South Kaioshin got Kid Buu an increase much less an abnormally large increase like that.

It obviously did, though. Nothing really contradicts the absorption of the South Kaioshin making Buu that powerful. I think he was SSJ2-tier at the least, anyway, since he's stronger than (the Western) Kaioshin. Buff Buu's power was still the pinnacle of both of the Kaioshins inside of Buu, not just the Southern one.

[Senzu_Bean]

This tie up with my original statement. For those who believe South Kaioshin increased Kid Buu's power and the latter is equal to SSJ3 Goku thus SK granted Buu an increase from SSJ3 tier to stronger than Super Buu tier which is slightly inferior to SSJ3 Gotenks which is x times stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

I can't believe South Kaioshin got Kid Buu an increase much less an abnormally large increase like that.

It obviously did, though.

Cut the attitude, okay?

East Kaioshin was weaker than even SSJ-tier but you place South Kaioshin in SSJ2-tier? When it was clearly that Kaioshin and Kibito never witnessed power as large as SSJ2 Gohan before. (excluding Majin Buu of course)

Buff Buu's power was still the pinnacle of both of the Kaioshins inside of Buu, not just the Southern one.

Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu. That would make South Kaioshin even stronger.

[Savage68]

East Kaioshin was weaker than even SSJ-tier

No, he wasn't. Practically every display of strength he had put him above the Super Saiyans, let alone the base Saiyans.

Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu. That would make South Kaioshin even stronger.

That clearly wasn't what was going on when Buu was reverting into his original form.

[Senzu_Bean]

East Kaioshin was weaker than even SSJ-tier

No, he wasn't. Practically every display of strength he had put him above the Super Saiyans, let alone the base Saiyans.

Dai Kaioshin weakened Buu. That would make South Kaioshin even stronger.

That clearly wasn't what was going on when Buu was reverting into his original form.

It is clearly stated that East Kaioshin is weaker than Super Saiyans. He admitted himself!

And it is also clearly stated that Dai Kaioshin weakened Majin Buu.

What is going on in here?

[jjgp1112]

Um...he never admitted he was weaker than the Super Saiyans. He admitted that they were far stronger than he would ever guess they were, but he never said they were stronger than him.

[Senzu_Bean]

Um...he never admitted he was weaker than the Super Saiyans. He admitted that they were far stronger than he would ever guess they were, but he never said they were stronger than him.

<<URL removed by moderator>>

Check the Japanese version if you believe the translation isn't good enough.

Not to mention Dabura is stronger than he is and yet Dabura is SSJ-tier.

[Savage68]

It is clearly stated that East Kaioshin is weaker than Super Saiyans. He admitted himself!

East Kaioshin is weaker than the Super Saiyans. He doesn't know the difference between forms - he's not going to differentiate between the levels when all he knows is that they're all referred to as, "Super Saiyan". That doesn't doesn't change the fact that he's more powerful than the base and SSJ1 forms of the Saiyans. The only time his power was actually proved to be insufficient compared to theirs was when SSJ2 was involved. He didn't even think twice about their strength until he saw SSJ2 Gohan.

[Senzu_Bean]

Not to mention Dabura is stronger than he is and yet Dabura is SSJ-tier.

[Savage68]

Um...he never admitted he was weaker than the Super Saiyans. He admitted that they were far stronger than he would ever guess they were, but he never said they were stronger than him.

<<URL removed by moderator>>

Check the Japanese version if you believe the translation isn't good enough.

This proves my point perfectly; He waits precisely until Goku turns SSJ2 (even though he had seen him as a SSJ1 moments before) to comment on how his strength had been surpassed. And when Gohan was SSJ2, he waited until then (not when Gohan was SSJ1 backstage) to comment on how he 'may be unable to stop [that] power'.

Not to mention Dabura is stronger than he is and yet Dabura is SSJ-tier.

Dabura is above Perfect Cell, and Perfect Cell is well above any SSJ1, barring fusions.

[Senzu_Bean]

And when Gohan was SSJ2, he waited until then (not when Gohan was SSJ1 backstage) to comment on how he 'may be unable to stop [that] power'.

Yet he still was able to stop that power. Is he above SSJ2 Gohan now?

Dabura is above Perfect Cell, and Perfect Cell is well above any SSJ1, barring fusions.

He was going toe-to-toe with SSJ Gohan, which is weaker than high SSJ-tier.

Not good enough? SSJ Gohan was able to release the Z-sword while all Kaioshins failed to do so.

[rereboy]

If Buu lost power with each absorption because of how "less pure" he got and because he gained more restrictions each time he absorbed someone, then he should become weaker everytime he absorbed somebody.

The ones who Super Buu absorbed should have just left him weaker instead of stronger which was not what happened.

The only absorption which made him weaker and that is stated in the manga to have done so was the Dai Kaioshin absorption. We have no reason to believe that he lost power with any other absorption. Quite the opposite. Given what is shown in the manga, we have to assume that every absorption increases his power, unless something is stated to make us think otherwise, AKA the case of the Dai Kaioshin absorption.

As for the matter of the South Kaioshin power, we know that East Kaioshin was the weakest Kaioshin but he was still strong enough to kill Freeza in one blow, as every Kaioshin was able to do it. South Kaioshin was the strongest of them all. What exactly makes you think that his power was not close or similar to SSJ3 level? After all, East Kaioshin was stronger than any basic SSJ since he was as strong as Piccolo was and he was the weakest. The strongest could have a power of close or similar to a SSJ3, namelly SSJ3 Goku.

That would mean that Buff Buu would have the power of Kid Buu plus the power of a fighter close or on SSJ3 level. I think that would leave him with a power somewhat greater than Super Buu`s.

The only problems with this scenario is the fact that South Kaioshin should have been able to remove the Z sword but we don`t even know if he tried it or not (and Toriyama might have forgotten that little detail).

[Savage68]

Yet he still was able to stop that power. Is he above SSJ2 Gohan now?

No, since he admitted that SSJ2 Gohan was more powerful than he was. On more than one occasion actually, and moreover admitted that immobilizing Gohan was difficult. If he was powerful enough to stop a SSJ2's actions even for just a few moments, that doesn't leave much room for him to be weaker than the Super Saiyans. Especially since we see him taking more damage from Buu than Gohan did, and he was able to stop a ki blast that left Gohan for dead, while beaten-up.

He was going toe-to-toe with SSJ Gohan, which is weaker than high SSJ-tier.

I'm fairly certain that he was fighting SSJ2 Gohan (yeah, I know), and he was implicitly stated to be stronger than Perfect Cell regardless.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm fairly certain that he was fighting SSJ2 Gohan...

LOL WUT?! I admit is confused but still Gohan is clearly Super Saiyan.

[Kaboom]

I'm fairly certain that he was fighting SSJ2 Gohan...

LOL WUT?!

Not an appropriate response, and not the kind of extra argument we need to let this thread delve into...

[Savage68]

My general point was that South Kaioshin's power didn't have to be super-high (like SSJ3 Goku's level) in order to make Buff Buu as powerful as he was. The reversion process brought out all of the power in Super Buu, unfiltered. This means Buff Buu was Kid Buu + all of South Kaioshin + all of Dai Kaioshin. He took the buffed-up form because, as usual, the traits of the strongest 'absorbee' were the most dominate. If you add South and Dai's power to Kid Buu's, I don't see why you can't end up with someone stronger than Super Buu. It didn't seem to be much of an increase, really.

[Senzu_Bean]

If you add South and Dai's power to Kid Buu's, I don't see why you can't end up with someone stronger than Super Buu. It didn't seem to be much of an increase, really.

But Dai didn't add power to Buu, he decreased it.

And the increase is freaking huge - according to you from SSJ3 Goku-tier to SSJ3 Gotenks-tier.

[Savage68]

But Dai didn't add power to Buu, he decreased it.

I'm not talking about the scene where Buff Buu absorbs Dai Kaioshin and becomes weaker. I'm talking about the scene where the very process unfolds.

And the increase is freaking huge - according to you from SSJ3 Goku-tier to SSJ3 Gotenks-tier.

...The increase from Super Buu to "stronger than Super Buu" is huge?

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm not talking about the scene where Buff Buu absorbs Dai Kaioshin and becomes weaker. I'm talking about the scene where the very process unfolds.

It is the same process. Plus Kibitoshin recognizes Buff Buu.

...The increase from Super Buu to "stronger than Super Buu" is huge?

Kid Buu absorbed Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin. Not Super Buu.