Do the TV Edits Bother You?

[Mewzard]

Considering I'm getting a brand new, instead of the same dub many times over, I don't see it as milking. To me, they just stopped milking, and bought a whole new cow.

And it's new to children who didn't see it on CN. I doubt it's ratings will go down too far. They don't even check the ratings involving people of Adult age, so they're missing out on a whole other group.

[SSVegetto]

Considering I'm getting a brand new, instead of the same dub many times over, I don't see it as milking. To me, they just stopped milking, and bought a whole new cow.

And it's new to children who didn't see it on CN. I doubt it's ratings will go down too far. They don't even check the ratings involving people of Adult age, so they're missing out on a whole other group.

Maybe, you have a small point. Maybe their voice acting has improved. There is only like one character voice change I think. And that is Gohan. But over all the voices are pretty much the same. So to me it's not a whole new cow. They could be working on other animes. Heck Akira Toriyama could produce something new for Dragonball. I'm just tired of these old cash ins.

As for children. I don't really think children should be watching a show with this much violence in it. Nick Toons is more for children(7 year olds) watching an episode of Rug Rats or whatever. And cartoon network is for(12 year olds) which that is sort of where it belongs. I don't think parents will let their kids watch this cartoon on Nick Toons.

On that note, I don't even think Naruto Shippuuden should be on Disney XD.

[The Time Traveller]

I have it on good authority that you haven't looked into anything at all and are just making stuff up as you go along.

DBZ was never uncensored on Toonami was it? I wouldn't call it uncensored if say, it had an edited dub still and different openings, and there are plenty of recasts in Kai, Bulma, Gohan, the Ginyu Corps, Freeza, and some others that Sabat used to voice.

[SSVegetto]

I have it on good authority that you haven't looked into anything at all and are just making stuff up as you go along.

DBZ was never uncensored on Toonami was it? I wouldn't call it uncensored if say, it had an edited dub still and different openings, and there are plenty of recasts in Kai, Bulma, Gohan, the Ginyu Corps, Freeza, and some others that Sabat used to voice.

DBZ eps 1-67, were shown on Toonami uncut and uncensored. Middle fingers, swear words, etc. And I could have swore I thought the rest of the episodes where uncut and uncensored also. Maybe on rare occasions they had a edit. All 54-276, nothing from the episode was cut.

1-53 were cut. But then 54-276, nothing was cut. Then they went back and did eps 1-67 on TOONAMI full screen. Which is actually rare. Because they never released the complete DVDs full screen uncut*. They got up to 1-24, but they actually had 1-67 full screen uncut on TV.

Now we got this edited garbage on TV called Kai on Nick Toons. And we are suppose to like this over what all the stuff we got back then on TV on cartoon network?


*Note, well, now excluding the Dragon Box. But Dragon Box didn't have the TV broadcast. Whatever, you guys know what I mean.

[MetalMadness]

I remember very clearly that when I watched DBZ on TV the censors were much, much less.

I do remember some certain bloodier scenes being censored, like Gohan's arm dripping blood after Cell attacked him, or Videl's beating.

But all the blood on characters' faces was kept intact, and not digitally removed like here. Most of the hard punches/attacks were kept as well.

[linkdude20002001]

The edits shouldn't bother anyone because all you gotta do is stay away from the TV. There's an uncut DVD for you guys.

But it's not out yet... Are you expecting me to wait till September?! Not a chance!

[jjgp1112]

I have it on good authority that you haven't looked into anything at all and are just making stuff up as you go along.

DBZ was never uncensored on Toonami was it? I wouldn't call it uncensored if say, it had an edited dub still and different openings, and there are plenty of recasts in Kai, Bulma, Gohan, the Ginyu Corps, Freeza, and some others that Sabat used to voice.

DBZ eps 1-67, were shown on Toonami uncut and uncensored. Middle fingers, swear words, etc. And I could have swore I thought the rest of the episodes where uncut and uncensored also. Maybe on rare occasions they had a edit. All 54-276, nothing from the episode was cut.

1-53 were cut. But then 54-276, nothing was cut. Then they went back and did eps 1-67 on TOONAMI full screen. Which is actually rare. Because they never released the complete DVDs full screen uncut*. They got up to 1-24, but they actually had 1-67 full screen uncut on TV.

Now we got this edited garbage on TV called Kai on Nick Toons. And we are suppose to like this over what all the stuff we got back then on TV on cartoon network?


*Note, well, now excluding the Dragon Box. But Dragon Box didn't have the TV broadcast. Whatever, you guys know what I mean.

Episodes 68-291 were edited. Hence why FUNimation, you know, simultaneously released Edited and uncut versions of the episodes on VHS. They actually edited the scene where Krillin got impaled to the point where they just combined episodes 80 and 81.

[dragondyle]

The edits shouldn't bother anyone because all you gotta do is stay away from the TV. There's an uncut DVD for you guys.

But it's not out yet... Are you expecting me to wait till September?! Not a chance!

Ah, but it's not completely out yet. Just be thankful it still isn't 1996.

[SSVegetto]

Episodes 68-291 were edited. Hence why FUNimation, you know, simultaneously released Edited and uncut versions of the episodes on VHS. They actually edited the scene where Krillin got impaled to the point where they just combined episodes 80 and 81.

Alright, thanks. But I do know that episodes 1-67 were uncut and were shown.

In the summer of 2005, Cartoon Network aired the uncut version of the first 67 episodes. This version used the original Japanese footage, with the exception of the Japanese opening and closing themes, and has an entirely new score of music. The uncut version also featured many scenes with blood that had been toned down or cut out entirely in the edits before, as well as mild language, profanity, sexual humor, and nudity. Generally, while some lines were maintained from the original dub, several mistranslations were also corrected. The uncut dub was given a TV-PG rating in contrast to the original dub's TV-Y7 rating.

I was partly wrong. But I wasn't really making up stuff as I was going along. I knew they showed some uncut episodes of DBZ on TV. And quite honestly, that is the closet we are obviously going to get when it comes to DBZ anything related uncut now on TV. Nick Toons is not even close to uncut, not even close. DB Kai in Japan is not even close to what it was uncut years ago. This is just milking people for cash. The nostalgia is gone, it's now just for the money.

They are too lazy to be creative or show creativity, nobody wants to do anything original with Dragonball anymore. Instead they want to milk it. And butcher it and censor it. And just put it on any old cartoon channel that doesn't fit and market it to 7 year olds. Market that kind of violence. Just edit the hell out of it and pretend there is no violence. I don't know it's just more about the money then about the show, obviously.

I just don't even want anyone wasting their money on it. I don't want it to be successful, I don't want Funimation making money off this. I rather have Toei just cancel Kai altogether. And everything gets canceled. And they just hack it up as a butchered job. Because let's face if people support this, then they will be lazy and they won't want to release anything original.

I mean how about a new Dragonball story, before Goku was born, a story about Saiyajins? And how everything came to be? Something original?

Instead 5 years later, will get a re-release of DBZ once again, this time the ultra paced edition(DBZ done in 70 eps). Everyone will go and buy it because it has the Dragonball label on it. They know they can get away with bare minimum quality, and no imagination.

[Coola Yagami]

That might have been possible had Toriyama showed any possible interest in making anything new. DB is done for him. That anniversary special and Kai are what we're gonna get.


I would love Kai 10 times more if they redrew the triangle/angular episodes of the Cell Games.

[MR.Mark]

Nope, the edits don't bother me, I'm collecting the blu-rays after all. At the end of the day, edits or not, this kai tv version retains the core of the story anyhow. Kids in the US will not have to hear about people going to other dimensions or Freeza "hurting" namekians, not to mention Bardock being a BRILLIANT scientist.

What does bother me however, is things in the uncut dub that should ONLY be in the tv version. dub-isms in the form of character names, attack names , certain pronunciations and miscasts (Kaio-sama) STILL remain. The end result is an other wise enjoyable dub that COULD of been a great dub.

I've been a dragon ball fan for two decades, I grew up with and love the Japanese cast. But I'm also one of those "happy-medium" fans that enjoys English dubs of anime as long as they're well done. Kai is the first English anything version of dragon ball that I'm not embarrassed to watch, so it's a shame FUNI didn't go all the way with being faithful to the original.
Here's hoping they can do a "revised dialogue" (with a few recasts perhaps?) version of Kai when there ready to put out the whole series in a box set. This dub has so much good things going for it that I'd gladly support the franchise and double-dip to finally hear things like Saiyan pronounced correctly.

As for the relevance of Kai, I think it was needed , and I think Toei thought so too. Dragon Ball Kai "milks" the series no more than Dragon Ball Z milked the manga. I think "dubbies" complaints against Kai mirror "subbies" complaints, it's rather ironic, I'll explain.

Nostalgia can be a powerful thing, no doubt about it. I still double take when I hear dub fans complaining about Gohan's new English voice. I mean seriously, how could you POSSIBLY think it's worse?! All I can come up with is nostalgia blinding people to the point where they wouldin't know good acting if it gut-punched them dragonball style. Now, to play devil's advocate on the "subbies". Don't misunderstand, I still have nostalgia for DBZ myself, and I do think there are some things it does better than Kai, but...

Overall, I feel Z jumped the shark once they blasted off to Namek, then the pacing and story inconsistencies are just a mess for the rest of the series. This problem doesn't really become an issue unless you've been following the series for as long as most of us have, which brings me to my next point. "Well, if DBZ's pacing is such a big problem, why have people all over the world fallen in love with it?" That's one of the major arguments I hear from people defending the DBZ version of the anime. OK, how bout this question then, if the DBZ dub is so bad ,how come most fans in the US fell in love with it?

Gimme an N!
Gimme an O!
Gimme an S!

You know where I'm going with this, but this is my point, BOTH Japanese and English DBZ has flaws, though one version is just more watchable (guess which one?) than the other. Japanese DBZ has bad pacing and plot holes, Dub DBZ has overacting and constant blaring music and talking in an attempt to HIDE the bad pacing, BOTH are bad attempts, just in different ways. Most of us got into the series when we were kids, and when your young , enjoying something with flaws are never gonna be apparent until you've had time to grow with the series and re-watch it many times, as I and many die hard fans have done. So this "playing the victim" or "feeling threatened" about something you've grown to love goes both ways as far as I'm concerned.

DBZ dubbie: "What do you mean the dub version sucks? The Japanese version is not the show I grew up with."
DBZ subbie: "What do you mean DBZ pacing sucks? This new Kai version is not the show I grew up with."

In the end, Toriyama is a design genius that just knows how to draw super-appealing looking characters, locations and images. And when those moments from his manga where captured well, THAT'S what hooked new veiwers to the anime, (Japanese and dub) NOT scenes of Goku and Freeza staring at each other ad nauseum.

So what I'm trying to say is, I feel Kai is shaping up to be a better adaption of the latter part of the manga. DBZ is GREAT for the first couple of viewings, mostly the first, when your ignorant to the padding. As the filler actually works really well with the suspense. After that though it doesn't age well at all for repeat viewings. Especially for fellow aging super-fans like myself.

Dragon ball is supposed to be an shonen manga adapted anime. We're taking about the Japanese equivalent of good ol fashioned pop corn entertainment. if an action story fails to deliver due to horrid pacing, then it's not a very good adaption of an action story. There is not much excuse to justify the padding of DBZ, there just isnt that much to the story. If I wanted to watch something deep but slow I'll watch the DEER HUNTER.

Kai is not perfect, no, but neither is DBZ. KAI/DBZ: both have inconsistent art redrawn or not, both have instances of repetitive uses of music, etc, etc.

NOW, I'll concede that DBZ has the more consistent voice acting, however, Kai's acting is never out right terrible and there ARE instances where it's better than before (Vegeta's death). Not to mention the sound editors seeming to give a damn this time around about matching mouth flaps and sound effects, I'm sure 17's hand clapping won't be out of sync by a second this time!

So to me, bad pacing is much more of a deal breaker than Hiromi Tsuru phoning it in from time to time. Hell, aging has only made Nozawa's adult Goku sound better imo, and I've always loved her as Son!

Oh...uh, yeah, the edits still don't bother me.

[Rocketman]

Fuck the haters, Kai is the best thing to happen to Dragonball since GT got canceled.

[Kaboom]

No, the extra edits for the TV version don't bother me because A) Barring a few mere exception they're not NEARLY as blatant as most from back in the old Saban days, and from what I've seen aren't very distracting at all, and B) I haven't been watching the TV edited version anyway and probably won't start doing so until the new dub-Freeza premieres.

What does bother me however, is things in the uncut dub that should ONLY be in the tv version. dub-isms in the form of character names, attack names , certain pronunciations and miscasts (Kaio-sama) STILL remain. The end result is an other wise enjoyable dub that COULD of been a great dub.

This holds true for me as well, though it's still little more than a minor annoyance. All the goods for the product in general FAR outweigh the minutia of bads.

[MR.Mark]

No, the extra edits for the TV version don't bother me because A) Barring a few mere exception they're not NEARLY as blatant as most from back in the old Saban days, and from what I've seen aren't very distracting at all, and B) I haven't been watching the TV edited version anyway and probably won't start doing so until the new dub-Freeza premieres.

What does bother me however, is things in the uncut dub that should ONLY be in the tv version. dub-isms in the form of character names, attack names , certain pronunciations and miscasts (Kaio-sama) STILL remain. The end result is an other wise enjoyable dub that COULD of been a great dub.

This holds true for me as well, though it's still little more than a minor annoyance. All the goods for the product in general FAR outweigh the minutia of bads.

Indeed, which is why it's a shame they went so far just to hold back. It's the little things that will keep me going back to the Japanese track more often than not.

[TheBlackPaladin]

No, the extra edits for the TV version don't bother me because A) Barring a few mere exception they're not NEARLY as blatant as most from back in the old Saban days, and from what I've seen aren't very distracting at all, and B) I haven't been watching the TV edited version anyway and probably won't start doing so until the new dub-Freeza premieres.

What does bother me however, is things in the uncut dub that should ONLY be in the tv version. dub-isms in the form of character names, attack names , certain pronunciations and miscasts (Kaio-sama) STILL remain. The end result is an other wise enjoyable dub that COULD of been a great dub.

This holds true for me as well, though it's still little more than a minor annoyance. All the goods for the product in general FAR outweigh the minutia of bads.

Indeed, which is why it's a shame they went so far just to hold back. It's the little things that will keep me going back to the Japanese track more often than not.

I guess I'm in the "good outweighs the bad" camp. It would have been nice if they fixed those little pronunciations and kept some of the other attack names, but they're not enough to deter me. I didn't even mind Nappa's infamous "I hate the media!" line too much. Yes, it did draw me out of the story, but only for about eight seconds. Like the kind of drawing out of the story one experiences when watching Terminator 2 and hearing Arnold say "I'll be back" again...that kind of drawing out. I actually wondered if they were paying tribute to DBZ Abridged with that line.* Same thing with King Kai's line, "Oh shut up Bubbles...just shut up."

So yes, the little things did bring me out of the story, but only for about five to ten seconds, and then I was right back in. I guess it's probably harder for people who preferred the original Japanese version and are used to that.

*Episode 8: "Hey Vegeta, look...the paparazzi...I have to PROTECT MY IMAGE!!!"

[Cipher]

Fuck the haters, Kai is the best thing to happen to Dragonball since GT got canceled.

As in, it's better than an annual series of sub-par video games and a single special? Yeah. I guess it is. That's really great for Kai.

Not a big fan of Kai to begin with, but that's neither here nor there. I can't see how the TV edits bother anyone. It's obvious that this is what they need to do to reach a large audience outside of cable (adhering to 4Kids standards, apparently), and that's always a good thing. The uncut product is still completely available on DVD, and for what it's worth, the edits themselves are very smoothly done. If I wasn't familiar with the original version, very little would stick out to me in the broadcast cut. Unlike the Saban edits, they don't change the experience of the show at all.

Things are edited to American children's TV standards, but the show isn't radically altered for it. It does exactly what a TV cut should, does so fairly unobtrusively, and doesn't do any more than that.

I remember very clearly that when I watched DBZ on TV the censors were much, much less.

That's because it was only available on cable via Toonami. They're apparently planning to air Kai on CW4Kids as well, and that puts them under a much stricter set of standards.

People really need to understand this before they complain about the edits. It's not Funimation, or likely even Nicktoons, sitting down and saying, "Yeah, cut this punch! Cut more! More!" It's what they are legally required to do to air the show on as many channels as possible.

And it's new to children who didn't see it on CN. I doubt it's ratings will go down too far. They don't even check the ratings involving people of Adult age, so they're missing out on a whole other group.

A group which they don't care about, given that anyone paying to advertise on Nicktoons is going to be aiming squarely at children.

[MR.Mark]

I guess I'm in the "good outweighs the bad" camp.

Well, I am too...to an extent, if not I wouldn't even be giving this dub the time of day nor being really excited to hear Freeza finally being done justice in English hopefully. I think the FUNI Kai dub is already good, just with mostly small flaws and afew big flaws (miscasts). Some fans are more forgiving of flaws I guess, I just can't pretend they don't exist, kinda like the execution of DBZ.

it's better than an annual series of sub-par video games and a single special? Yeah. I guess it is. That's really great for Kai.

Well, there's also DBZ's pacing ,plotholes ,and out of character moments caused by atrocious filler. That might have something to do with people preferring Kai.

[RazorX]

TV edits don't bother me too much, they are to be expected and it's interesting to note how the edits change the atmosphere compared to the uncut version.

I just don't even want anyone wasting their money on it. I don't want it to be successful, I don't want Funimation making money off this. I rather have Toei just cancel Kai altogether.

Dragon Ball Kai is always in the top 10 in terms of ratings in Japan, sometimes even in the top 5. The previous DS game was marketed as Dragon Ball Kai.

As well as that, Kai has set records on Nicktoons as being the most watched premier of a show in Nicktoons' history.

There's bound to be more merchandising in the future alongside DVD/Blu Ray releases and countries around the world are likely to license it.

Its too late to hope for its failure now, its already a mega success, and I'm happy about that as it helps keep the Dragon Ball series alive. Would we have got the Dragon Boxes if DBZ didn't see a popular revival in the early 2000s in Japan?

They are too lazy to be creative or show creativity, nobody wants to do anything original with Dragonball anymore. Instead they want to milk it.

I think Toei must've done a cost-benefit analysis between reusing previous animation or digitally creating entirely new animation for Kai. Toei had solid grounds to predict Kai's likely success, the new animation would've drawn in more viewers, but the question may have been, would the benefit of that outweigh the cost.

Instead 5 years later, will get a re-release of DBZ once again

That is a possibility. You see, by opting to reuse old animation (bar some redrawn scenes matching that animation) Toei have left an option open for the future. The option to release DBZ with brand new, digitally created animation, at least of the quality we see in Kai's opening and eyecatches, they know fans would love that. When you milk a phenomenally popular series such as Dragon Ball, you leave the best option till last. If Funimation released Dragon Boxes before the season sets, there's probably no way the season sets would've sold as well as they did. It makes strategic sense to release DBZ with new animation after a DBZ cut using old animation.

Digital animation has come quite a long way. If Toei are smart, they have (or have acquired) their own digital animation studio in order to achieve synergies between their core business operations. A few years down the line perhaps it'll be even more efficient to produce digitally animated shows and if there's a demand for it, we may yet see DBZ completely reanimated, with different music in order to differentiate it from Kai. (And hopefully give a new but enjoyable feel to the series)

I would like Toei to produce new DBZ movies and a new Dragon Ball series. Kai may be a test to see if demand is still here. Toei could in theory create an Anime based on the Dragon Ball Online RPG, since Akira Toriyama had significant involvement in it. However, I want them to be in the animation style of Kai's opening/eyecatches, not the style of the 2008 movie Son Goku Returns, but putting more effort and concentration on the dimensions, particularly facial.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I don't know that we'll get a new Dragon Ball series. From the interviews I've read with Akira Toriyama, he sounds kind of annoyed that he's only being remembered for "Dragon Ball." Almost like Mark Hamil's attitude towards Star Wars (which is to say, he's proud of it, but wants to distance himself from it because that's not all he wants to be remembered for). If I recall correctly, in an interview about his Dragon Ball/One Piece crossover manga special, he said, "Drawing 'Dragon Ball' again reminded me of two things--how much I love it and how much I never want to do it again."

[SSVegetto]

As for the relevance of Kai, I think it was needed , and I think Toei thought so too. Dragon Ball Kai "milks" the series no more than Dragon Ball Z milked the manga. I think "dubbies" complaints against Kai mirror "subbies" complaints, it's rather ironic, I'll explain.

Dragon Ball Z (in my opinion) doesn't milk anything. Dragon Ball Z was the original, uncut, uncensored, unedited, new originaly animated series that continued the DB manga. But DB Kai milks what was already made to make a easy cash in. They took the DBZ footage they already made and cut and slash, and hacked, edited, and censored it. And re-released it. They didn't remake it.

Dragon Ball Kai is always in the top 10 in terms of ratings in Japan, sometimes even in the top 5. The previous DS game was marketed as Dragon Ball Kai.

As well as that, Kai has set records on Nicktoons as being the most watched premier of a show in Nicktoons' history.

There's bound to be more merchandising in the future alongside DVD/Blu Ray releases and countries around the world are likely to license it.

Its too late to hope for its failure now, its already a mega success, and I'm happy about that as it helps keep the Dragon Ball series alive. Would we have got the Dragon Boxes if DBZ didn't see a popular revival in the early 2000s in Japan?

Where is the evidence to support this?

They are too lazy to be creative or show creativity, nobody wants to do anything original with Dragonball anymore. Instead they want to milk it.

I think Toei must've done a cost-benefit analysis between reusing previous animation or digitally creating entirely new animation for Kai. Toei had solid grounds to predict Kai's likely success, the new animation would've drawn in more viewers, but the question may have been, would the benefit of that outweigh the cost.

Yes, it's good for the benefit of making money without having to spend much more money to make something original. So not much effort or originality went into it. Hence, easy cash in.

Digital animation has come quite a long way. If Toei are smart, they have (or have acquired) their own digital animation studio in order to achieve synergies between their core business operations. A few years down the line perhaps it'll be even more efficient to produce digitally animated shows and if there's a demand for it, we may yet see DBZ completely reanimated, with different music in order to differentiate it from Kai. (And hopefully give a new but enjoyable feel to the series)

Toei is just too lazy and greedy for that. In my opinion, they are no longer a good anime studio. Even if they could, I don't think it would turn out well. If you looked closely at their intro in DB Kai, and if you looked at some of the paused frames. You can really see how ugly and rushed they really made them. I saw it in another thread here. Plus their redrawn frames in DB Kai are ugly and pointless. (My opinion)

This is just an opinion, but I don't think they know what they are doing when it comes to putting music in either. And that is the huge draw back of Kai for me. And they are too lazy to put in an optional background music track for the DVD/Blu-ray release, the ones they used for DBZ. And also the censoring nonsense. Anyways, I think Studio Pierrot is way more talented than Toei. It's too bad Studio Pierrot can't do Dragon Ball Z. But actually I don't want them to. Enough is enough, the series has been milked enough.