Freeza knowing of someone more powerful than him?

[jjgp1112]

But the thing was, the plan to send everyone to earth was made while Goku was in the middle of fighting Fri­eza. Before that, he was saying that he was sure that Gohan and the others would somehow escape while he was kicking Fr­ieza's ass. But then he overheard King Kai and the Grand Elder's conversation.

EDIT: That was directed at MR.Mark, not Savage

[Cableguy15]

You missed the whole point of the wish to teleport everyone except Goku and Freeza to earth. Son Goku WAS buying time and holding back, humiliating freeza. Once Gohan and the others were off Namek, what did Son do? That's right ,he got down on the ground, because he was ready to end it, and beat Freeza'a ass.

I think you're missing the point actually. Think about it for a moment, how can you humiliate someone by holding back when they have no idea that they're holding back to begin with?

Goku never said or implied that he was holding back at any point in the fight, so how is Freeza supposed to assume that? He doesn't know that, he assumes Goku is fighting at full power (And by all means he should be) the whole time. That's NOT the reason Freeza was humiliated.

Freeza was humiliated because a Saiyan beat him at his absolute best, there's really nothing else to it that Goku ever mentioned. There's also the flaw in your argument that Goku didn't simply just win after everyone got wished back, they were still evenly matched until Freeza's 100% form crapped out on him.

I mean, I have to wonder, what do you think Goku's mindset was here? It doesn't sound like anything logical to me.

"Okay, so I'll hold back AND buy time for Gohan and Co. so I can humiliate Freeza... but I won't tell him that I'm holding back. Maybe he'll somehow know that I am. Tehe!"

"Oho! Kaio's plan is springing into action! I know! Instead of defeating Freeza right away as I know that I can, I'll make sure that everyone else is wished away for some reason, while staying here and beating him anyway like I could have earlier... but I still won't tell him I'm holding back."

It doesn't make sense to me.

I just think that Goku was buying time to be sure that everyone got away while he fended off Freeza. He wanted a decisive win over Freeza to prove who the best was, so he stayed back on Namek to finish the fight. And with that, he did win just in time to escape from the planet, and thus completely defeated/humiliated Freeza in the process.

Goku holding back just doesn't fit.

[Godo]

"Okay, so I'll hold back AND buy time for Gohan and Co. so I can humiliate Freeza... but I won't tell him that I'm holding back. Maybe he'll somehow know that I am. Tehe!"

"Oho! Kaio's plan is springing into action! I know! Instead of defeating Freeza right away as I know that I can, I'll make sure that everyone else is wished away for some reason, while staying here and beating him anyway like I could have earlier... but I still won't tell him I'm holding back."

It doesn't make sense.

It's because of that you have a different mindset, that's all.
Both the groups debating here have valid points. Neither one of them is more valid than the other. If we step back from the arguing and take a look, the problem is only that we have interpreted the story and the panels differently. A picture says more than a thousand words, but people see different words.
We see different things, and as long as we are absolutely sure that only our theory is right, then we will go nowhere.

To answer your question, this is how I think that Goku thought:¨
"I'll hold back so that I can buy time for Gohan and the others, no need to rush things for now."

"Oh, Kaio's plan is into action! Now we are all alone and it's time to teach that arrogant idiot a lesson! I'll make sure that everyone are wished away, because of that then there are no distractions and only the two of us. If by chance the planet would be to explode before I have finished the fight against Freeza, it wouldn't be necessary to have other people dying in vain, right? Since my plan was to get the others into safety first, and it's completed, I can start my plan to humiliate Freeza".

A part of the humiliation was probably to make Freeza to think that he had a chance of winning, to later show that he still had much more power left and also that he was the stronger one.
Freeza noticed this, and was humiliated. His line then was something similar to: "I won't be defeated! I am the strongest in the Universe!". Funny thing to say if you are nearly equal in power to your enemy and just suffered utter defeat.
At least, this is my interpretation.

Goku never said or implied that he was holding back at any point in the fight, so how is Freeza supposed to assume that? He doesn't know that, he assumes Goku is fighting at full power (And by all means he should be) the whole time. That's NOT the reason Freeza was humiliated.

Cell was superior to Goku, and still didn't fight him at full power. He rather played around with him using a power in the same level like Goku, and even took some damage from him.
I think that due to his Saiya-jin spirit, Goku could have wanted to even out the fight more to make it more enjoyable, rather than just making it short. After all, one of his reasons for staying to fight Freeza was to be able to fight the rumored strongest fighter in the Universe.
That's why I don't like black and white ways of thinking. There are always exceptions.

[Savage68]

The thing is though, Goku implicitly stated that Freeza was a challenge to him in that battle. That eliminates whatever reason anyone may have for thinking that the fight could've been a godstomp. There's no misinterpretation or gray areas going on with direct lines, straight from the characters' mouths + actions (which speak louder than words). At most, "Goku held back" doesn't have much going for it besides speculation, but "Goku fought almost evenly with Freeza" is something we actually see happening.

[Kaboom]

Numerical battle powers aren't everything. Even with Goku's 25% advantage, there's other things that can factor into a fight. Like technique, prior injuries, exhaustion, etc...

[MR.Mark]

"Okay, so I'll hold back AND buy time for Gohan and Co. so I can humiliate Freeza... but I won't tell him that I'm holding back. Maybe he'll somehow know that I am. Tehe!"

"Oho! Kaio's plan is springing into action! I know! Instead of defeating Freeza right away as I know that I can, I'll make sure that everyone else is wished away for some reason, while staying here and beating him anyway like I could have earlier... but I still won't tell him I'm holding back."

It doesn't make sense.

It's because of that you have a different mindset, that's all.
Both the groups debating here have valid points. Neither one of them is more valid than the other. If we step back from the arguing and take a look, the problem is only that we have interpreted the story and the panels differently. A picture says more than a thousand words, but people see different words.
We see different things, and as long as we are absolutely sure that only our theory is right, then we will go nowhere.

To answer your question, this is how I think that Goku thought:¨
"I'll hold back so that I can buy time for Gohan and the others, no need to rush things for now."

"Oh, Kaio's plan is into action! Now we are all alone and it's time to teach that arrogant idiot a lesson! I'll make sure that everyone are wished away, because of that then there are no distractions and only the two of us. If by chance the planet would be to explode before I have finished the fight against Freeza, it wouldn't be necessary to have other people dying in vain, right? Since my plan was to get the others into safety first, and it's completed, I can start my plan to humiliate Freeza".

A part of the humiliation was probably to make Freeza to think that he had a chance of winning, to later show that he still had much more power left and also that he was the stronger one.
Freeza noticed this, and was humiliated. His line then was something similar to: "I won't be defeated! I am the strongest in the Universe!". Funny thing to say if you are nearly equal in power to your enemy and just suffered utter defeat.
At least, this is my interpretation.

Goku never said or implied that he was holding back at any point in the fight, so how is Freeza supposed to assume that? He doesn't know that, he assumes Goku is fighting at full power (And by all means he should be) the whole time. That's NOT the reason Freeza was humiliated.

Cell was superior to Goku, and still didn't fight him at full power. He rather played around with him using a power in the same level like Goku, and even took some damage from him.
I think that due to his Saiya-jin spirit, Goku could have wanted to even out the fight more to make it more enjoyable, rather than just making it short. After all, one of his reasons for staying to fight Freeza was to be able to fight the rumored strongest fighter in the Universe.
That's why I don't like black and white ways of thinking. There are always exceptions.

No need for me to debate anymore, you summed it up nicely man.Goku made it clear to Freeza that he was going to utterly defeat and destroy his pride, humiliating him.

Plus I really don't want to get in trouble with the mods with all the back and forth, it really does get childish after awhile. So I'll stop arguing on this matter, for realz this time!

[Cableguy15]

What Savage68 posted is also how I see it.

Also, I wasn't exactly trying to be non-understanding when I said MR.Mark's scenario with Goku didn't make any sense. It's just that it really doesn't make any sense for Goku to be humiliating someone who doesn't know they're being humiliated, that's all.

Cell was superior to Goku, and still didn't fight him at full power. He rather played around with him using a power in the same level like Goku, and even took some damage from him.
I think that due to his Saiya-jin spirit, Goku could have wanted to even out the fight more to make it more enjoyable, rather than just making it short. After all, one of his reasons for staying to fight Freeza was to be able to fight the rumored strongest fighter in the Universe.
That's why I don't like black and white ways of thinking. There are always exceptions.

The difference being that Cell and Goku weren't fighting on a planet that was about to explode, and Cell controlled it so that he was always slightly stronger than Goku, just enough so that he wasn't in danger of being killed. And beyond that, he could afford to make such decisions thanks to his great regeneration ability. Basically, cell's life wasn't in danger, Goku's clearly was when he fought Freeza, so I wouldn't call that a valid example.

The biggest point (And Goku himself points this out) is that there was no need to drag the fight out. This was the whole entire reason he stopped fighting Freeza, because there was no more reason to fight someone who was worn down and not strong enough. But if he was holding back to begin with, why would that even matter? That would mean there was no point to begin with, thus making Goku's point... pointless. lol

Numerical battle powers aren't everything. Even with Goku's 25% advantage, there's other things that can factor into a fight. Like technique, prior injuries, exhaustion, etc...

Well don't forget that the 25% difference is still what the Daizenshuu considers "Rivaling" each other anyway. Look at the battle powers they gave Raditz and the Cultivars. Same exact difference, and both the manga and Daizenshuu claim that they rival each other, so I don't even think the levels are the issue.

Of course, I tried thinking in a non-linear way of how a fight would go (Which quite honestly is not how things usually worked at this point in the series, but whatever), but there's still not much reason for them to be even while having a large difference in power. I mean the fight was pretty cut and dry. Just a few exchanged blows, and let's not forget that power for power, Freeza collided with a bloodlusted Kamehameha. I don't think that's just a coincidence.