Does not training make one's power level decrease?

[Senzu_Bean]

You act like people past their childhood prime can't learn a skill. Just because they have no background in martial arts doesn't mean they can't learn martial arts. I have no idea how to snowboard, but given enough time with a teacher (and a location with snow xD) I'm sure I could learn.

I'm not saying she can't learn it, I'm saying her learning is as insane as Bulma learning it. And sure Bulma can learn it.

18 might have been a delinquent before she became a cyborg, but that doesn't mean she didn't have some martial arts skills. I'm not saying real training, but delinquents often get into fights. Her human body may not be gifted for martial arts and ki control but it can be learned, Krillin Yamcha and Videl prove this. They may have been MORE gifted, but they are from the same race and have similar potential.

School fighting isn't really fighting, you know? Krillin and Videl have been in martial arts since they are young. Not sure about Yamcha though.

And them being from the same race doesn't exactly mean they have similar potential, just look at Vegeta and Goku.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Depends, I've seen some brutal school fights. Though I do grant you most are nothing special. But her history is never really elaborated upon, we don't know if she was a fighter, a brawler, a thief, or what. It's really all just speculation.

And you really don't think Goku and Vegeta have similar potentials? Not equal, similar. I give you Goku has a faster rate of growth, but the potential for improvement is there for both of them the whole time.

[The Time Traveller]

Her body would adapt to the large amount of power she has to deal with, if she trained rigorously enough she could grow stronger, and if you took away the implants she'd probably be as strong as one of the main humans... maybe Yamcha...

[Senzu_Bean]

Depends, I've seen some brutal school fights. Though I do grant you most are nothing special. But her history is never really elaborated upon, we don't know if she was a fighter, a brawler, a thief, or what. It's really all just speculation.

The fact what we know about her backstory implies she is a delinquent teenager make me believe she isn't a fighter. Delinquent teenagers aren't fighters.

And you really don't think Goku and Vegeta have similar potentials? Not equal, similar. I give you Goku has a faster rate of growth, but the potential for improvement is there for both of them the whole time.

Goku can Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta with his hidden power out to beyond his limits is even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Her body would adapt to the large amount of power she has to deal with, if she trained rigorously enough she could grow stronger, and if you took away the implants she'd probably be as strong as one of the main humans... maybe Yamcha...

I don't believe so. She doesn't even know how to use ki or fly or even fight. Take way her cyborg implants and Launch would kick her ass.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The fact what we know about her backstory implies she is a delinquent teenager make me believe she isn't a fighter. Delinquent teenagers aren't fighters.

Apparently you didn't go to my high school... We're bound to have entirely different viewpoints on this.

Goku can Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta with his hidden power out to beyond his limits is even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Why would Vegeta want Super Saiyan 3 after seeing the drawbacks it had when Goku used it? Goku trained in Heaven with a body that was able to endure much more than when he was living, its natural he made more progress. Vegeta kept up fairly even for being bound to a body of real flesh and blood. Being able to train with less weaknesses and having your power supped up with magic just about cancels each other out in my book. Had they both be alive I think they would have been much closer in power and Goku wouldn't have SS3.

[The Time Traveller]

I don't believe so. She doesn't even know how to use ki or fly or even fight. Take way her cyborg implants and Launch would kick her ass.

Oh come on, as much as we'd like to see 18 fight Lunch... ooor mud wrestle, Lunch has only used guns! 18 has fighting expirience and would definitly grow stronger, unless her skeleton and muscles were removed to become a cyborg then she'd be a pile of flesh 'n' blood, but I don't mean it that way.

If Videl, who has been a martial artist since she was little, can learn to fly and use ki, so should a fit young woman who... already knows.

[Senzu_Bean]

The fact what we know about her backstory implies she is a delinquent teenager make me believe she isn't a fighter. Delinquent teenagers aren't fighters.

Apparently you didn't go to my high school... We're bound to have entirely different viewpoints on this.

Oh, come on! 18 years old kids smashing around nerds with violent kicks and punches isn't fighting. That is violence!

Goku can Super Saiyan 3. Vegeta with his hidden power out to beyond his limits is even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Why would Vegeta want Super Saiyan 3 after seeing the drawbacks it had when Goku used it? Goku trained in Heaven with a body that was able to endure much more than when he was living, its natural he made more progress. Vegeta kept up fairly even for being bound to a body of real flesh and blood. Being able to train with less weaknesses and having your power supped up with magic just about cancels each other out in my book. Had they both be alive I think they would have been much closer in power and Goku wouldn't have SS3.

I'm not saying after but at the moment. Vegeta beyond his own limits is only at par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Goku at his limits is four times stronger than that.

And I'm sure Vegeta would love to have Super Saiyan 3 when fighting Buu.

I don't believe so. She doesn't even know how to use ki or fly or even fight. Take way her cyborg implants and Launch would kick her ass.

Oh come on, as much as we'd like to see 18 fight Lunch... ooor mud wrestle, Lunch has only used guns! 18 has fighting expirience and would definitly grow stronger, unless her skeleton and muscles were removed to become a cyborg then she'd be a pile of flesh 'n' blood, but I don't mean it that way.

If Videl, who has been a martial artist since she was little, can learn to fly and use ki, so should a fit young woman who... already knows.

#18 doesn't know how to fly or use ki, her cyborgs parts can.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Oh, come on! 18 years old kids smashing around nerds with violent kicks and punches isn't fighting. That is violence!

Who said anything about nerds? I'm talking pissed off football players at friends cheating with their girlfriends, druggies stealing each others stashes, alcoholics kids who don't like someone else's smartass remark about their mother.

I'll give you that its violence, but all fighting is violent, even if its for sport. The sport side just don't want to kill each other. Goku may be fighting for the sake of the universe, but overall he's just a muscle-headed brute that's punching his opponents teeth out.

I'm not saying after but at the moment. Vegeta beyond his own limits is only at par with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Goku at his limits is four times stronger than that.

And I'm sure Vegeta would love to have Super Saiyan 3 when fighting Buu.

Once again, consider the factors. Goku had trained with a heavenly body for seven years and Vegeta got a magic boost in 3 minutes, both cheating by normal standards, yet they come out equal. Measure their base forms, if they are equal at SS2 they are equal at base, and if Goku hadn't been in heaven he wouldn't have SS3 and the extra training, and Vegeta wouldn't need Babidi's Magic therefore rendering them even once again. You are taking everything exactly as it is presented instead of looking as to WHY they are that way.

I'm also sure he'd love it to drain all his ki and leave him for dead in base form against that behemoth of a ki pool.

[Rocketman]

I think #18 would be able to learn to use ki, using her cyborg implants like training wheels on a bike.

Except not, because her cyborg parts are more like a car. Similar to ki in some ways, but you'll never learn to ride a bike by driving a car, because in a car all the work is done for you.

Could she become a ki user like Krillin and such? Yes. But her cyborg parts would hinder that, not help it, in the same way that having pistons lift weights for you won't pump up your muscles.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'll give you that its violence, but all fighting is violent, even if its for sport.

Not every fight is violent but whatever, doesn't matter.

Once again, consider the factors. Goku had trained with a heavenly body for seven years and Vegeta got a magic boost in 3 minutes, both cheating by normal standards, yet they come out equal.

Goku with only Super Saiyan 3 was able to bring out all of his potential. Vegeta on the other hand got his hidden power out to beyond his limits, BEYOND HIS LIMITS, and was only comparable to Goku, using 4x times less his overall strength. And yet you say they both have similar potential. Okay...

[shinaobi]

Not every fight is violent but whatever, doesn't matter.

Unless you're getting into the realm of verbal arguments, yes, every fight is violent. Some fights aren't particularly NASTY (a lot of the verbal ones are), but they are all violent.

Goku with only Super Saiyan 3 was able to bring out all of his potential. Vegeta on the other hand got his hidden power out to beyond his limits, BEYOND HIS LIMITS, and was only comparable to Goku, using 4x times less his overall strength. And yet you say they both have similar potential. Okay...

Only comparable? Last time I checked, Vegeta knocked Goku right the eff out. Goku was holding a transformation out from Vegeta, but that doesn't mean he wasn't trying, nor does it mean that he had more potential than Vegeta; heck, Goku had what amounted to magical steroids up there in Heaven, what with the infinite stamina and energy and all. It doesn't say much for him that he managed to pick up a new, hilariously inefficient and ultimately ineffective (he took out a grand total of nobody in SSJ3) transformation out of it.

Plus, I think you're overestimating Babidi the wizard; the Majin boost doesn't go beyond your reserves, making you more powerful than you could ever possibly be, ever. Heck, the best Gohan ever got was all of his potential ever drawn out, and that was from a god.

[Senzu_Bean]

Not every fight is violent but whatever, doesn't matter.

Unless you're getting into the realm of verbal arguments, yes, every fight is violent. Some fights aren't particularly NASTY (a lot of the verbal ones are), but they are all violent.

I guess we have two different views of what violence is then.

Plus, I think you're overestimating Babidi the wizard; the Majin boost doesn't go beyond your reserves, making you more powerful than you could ever possibly be, ever. Heck, the best Gohan ever got was all of his potential ever drawn out, and that was from a god.

Actually he does. It is said on the manga and it says on Daizenshuu 7. I asked Herms about it and he confirmed it. Check his Daizenshuu 7 thread.

Thus Vegeta has a lot less potential than Goku does.

[Godo]

Actually he does. It is said on the manga and it says on Daizenshuu 7. I asked Herms about it and he confirmed it. Check his Daizenshuu 7 thread.

Thus Vegeta has a lot less potential than Goku does.

Goku had already had a part of his potential dragged out in Dragonball, by Karin's nasty death juice. This explains why Goku was one step ahead all the time. He had a lower roof to his limits to break through each time. Then he finally reached his limits too, which now was higher because of the death juice brought him beyond his natural limits.
Vegeta, on the other hand, became equal with Goku when his roof was lowered too, and he was finally brought beyond his limits.
So both had the same potential after all.

[Senzu_Bean]

Karin's juice only brought a bit of Goku's hidden power, it didn't increase his limits. So no, they don't have the same potential.

[Godo]

Karin's juice only brought a bit of Goku's hidden power, it didn't increase his limits. So no, they don't have the same potential.

Yeah, I didn't think about that. I forgot that it was his hidden power, not his potential.
I bet by Goku's face that Karin's juice was really thick and nasty tasting. Probably tasted like tuna. And poor Goku had to drink it, not knowing it's origins. No way that Holy Water would be that hard to swallow. No wonder so many fighters died. What Goku got was a Zenkai, no doubt.

[Senzu_Bean]

They are one and the same.

But yeah, according to Krillin near death power-ups is the reason Goku was always one step ahead of everybody.

It only supports "zenkais" have always been on the story, prior, during and after Namek arc.

[Godo]

They are one and the same.

Which reminds me that I should go to sleep soon.

But yeah, according to Krillin near death power-ups is the reason Goku was always one step ahead of everybody.

It only supports "zenkais" have always been on the story, prior, during and after Namek arc.

I remember that comment as one of the few "Aaaaaah, so that's how it is!" moments in Dragonball. It explained everything about Goku's power.

Thinking of it, by natural laws, the power you are born with doesn't decrease by much, unless you don't move for weeks.
I for one, am born with a huge muscle mass compared to the norm (I think I have 10% more than regular people) even though I don't work out much. This mass hasn't decreased at all for years.
So you could guess that Freeza didn't need to work out much, since it was his innate power.

[Dayspring]

Both Goku and Vegeta repeatedly met their potentials and surpassed them. That's how you go SSJ and SSJ2. As for Vegeta being beyond his potential against SSJ2 Goku, while that's how the technique works, keep in mind that Vegeta only let himself be partially taken under control. He didn't want all that power, he just wanted enough to close the gap to becoming equal to SSJ2 Goku. If he let himself be Babidi's complete slave, then and only then would he have his power pushed beyond its potential. The only time an absolute limit is obtained in the series is when Gohan becomes "Ultimate."

In other words, with Saichoru, the Water, the SSJ and SSJ2 forms, it's all a matter of "here's what your limit can be" instead of what it will be. That's why Goku and Gohan tell Elder Kaioshin they've heard about surpassing limits many times prior already; a Saiyan genetic trait seems to be the ability to redefine one's limitations if ever it gets met.

As for #18's implants doing all the work for her, that's bunk, in my opinion. To become stronger, you excert a force greater than you can currently handle. So if her implants mean they do all the work up to a force of 1,000,000, then she needs to go around training with an intensity higher than 1,000,000. It's the same concept as the Saiyans training once they got too powerful.

As for the original question, I think it's true for everyone (except #18 and #17) to be able to get weaker. It's just like real life, only on a different scale. If you train a lot, you get stronger. If you don't, you get weaker, and if you train a bit, you maintain your current level. Gohan stopped altogether, so he got weaker as a result. It's ok for him to get weaker, because he's stronger than Cell, who's significantly stronger than the androids, who dwarfs Freeza, who is 1,000x stronger than Ginyu, who is 2x stronger than the top 1% of the entire universe. The odds of someone coming to Earth and being a threat to him even if he got substancially weaker than we saw are astronomically small, so he got lazy.