Fusion Questions

[Questrider]

As the topic indicates, I’d like to discuss a few things.
For starters, the Potara fusion.

In the manga, Kibitokai makes a statement about how strong Vegetto is.
The Elder Kai replies something along the lines of: “You dolt. Those two are the one’s with power.” Ring a bell?
It is suggested then that the potara does not grant anything except the joining of powers into one body.
However, I have heard many times about multipliers, etc, which leads me to believe I don’t have all the facts.
Care to elaborate?

Next we have the fusion dance which we see Goten and Trunks perform and again I am left very much confused.
Goten, on his own at the Super Saiyan level was nothing compared to Gohan. They trained and Gohan obviously had no problem sparing with the little guy.
So, in my own way of deciphering things, I am led to believe that a Goten/Trunks fusion simply produces an adult powered Super Saiyan. Go beyond that and the two kids manage to reach SSJ3. Is his SSJ3 comparable to Goku’s SSJ3? I have a hard time believing that.
It took 2 people to reach a form that a single Goku could reach. Add to that that the 2 people are kids and so while I see them reaching a level comparable to Goku, I’m not sold on the evidence that their form is in fact stronger. Does the fusion dance multiply any part of their power? Giving them access to greater levels of power?

Let’s just say for example that these basic numbers represent the level of transformation:
1=SSJ1
2=SSJ2
3=SSJ3.

Now, let’s say that on their own, each kid is 1.5 at most on the scale, since they can’t be a 2 since they can’t reach SSJ2 alone.
So, 1.5+1.5= 3.0, thus making if possible to reach the SSJ3 form.
It really seems that simple to me, thus how could 2 kids produce more power than a full grown adult who can already take the form without any aid?

The only way I see that happening is if the fusion dance can give you more power where you previously had limitations.
Can anyone better explain this?

[caejones]

Using some statements from the dub and a painful amount of Algebra, I got a possible ballpark multiplier for dance-type fusion, though it is by no means definite.

If we believe the statements that SSJ3 Gotenks was about even with Super Buu, and that Buu lost "over a third of his power" when Gotenks split inside of him, we have...

Buu+Trunks+Goten+Piccolo = (2/3)(2*Buu)
For fusion, the fusees need to have their power equivalent. So let's say that we have ... B=Buu, T=Trunks/Goten, and P=Piccolo.

4/3B = B+P+2T
*3
4B = 3B+3B+6T
B = 3P+6T
Except now I'm confused, because I remember getting a result that didn't involve three Piccolos... O.O.

Ur, yeah. The point is that the resulting power of the fusion can be at least seven times that of the fusees based on in-series statements. There isn't a fixed multiplier, but given the numbers and stuff we got from the SEG, this seems like it comes close to matching up.

Granted, I don't really know how I feel about applying multipliers to all the transformations and such past Freeza...

[Savage68]

The only consistent "fusion boost" in-universe is A + B x (unspecified). The result is stronger than the sum of it's parts, but it is not proportionally as powerful for everyone.

[Lucas Abner]

in daizenshuu 7 says that,fusion potara = power of Vegeta multiplied to Goku...

[caejones]

in daizenshuu 7 says that,fusion potara = power of Vegeta multiplied to Goku...

Not exactly. It says potara is "like" multiplication, not that it flat-out is multiplication.
And there is the whole Kibitto/Kaioshin ... thing... problem... issue... bleh.

[Bussani]

We don't know all the details, but as usual, a lot of people have theories. What we do know is that fusions are stronger than the sum of their parts--which is probably obvious, because just adding two people together isn't going to be very impressive. Goku describes fusion this way when he first explains it, and it's hinted in other guides that potara fusions are somehow even better than that (though it's vague about what "better" means. Stronger? Permanent? Easier to use?). The Super Exciting Guides described potara's fusion as "more like multiplication than addition" (paraphrasing), which is probably true of regular fusion, too, since it also produces a fighter stronger than the sum of his parts.

Not exactly. It says potara is "like" multiplication, not that it flat-out is multiplication.

I don't know why people take it to mean that it is flat-out multiplication. Even if it was, it didn't tell us what units of measurements to use. Battle power? Kiri? You'd get very different results depending on what you used.

[Dayspring]

Using just what we see in the manga, it seems to be basic synergy. So A+B = (A+B) in addition, but A+B = (A+B)+X in synergy. X depends completely on what both A and B consist of and not anything mathematically related. Because of its lack of consistency, synergy seems to be the best explanation for how all fusion works, as Kibitioshin is both a greatly powerful fusion and still weaker than SSJ3 Goku, being rivals "somehow" makes Potara fusion better, and messing up the fusion dance results in a fusion substancially weaker than the sum of the indivuals being fused. It even works with Namekkian fusion, as one fusor being the base can affect the fusion better than if the other was the base. It also explains how Kami and Piccolo seem to be substancially weaker than the Son of Kattatsu who split into them.

[Bussani]

Using just what we see in the manga, it seems to be basic synergy. So A+B = (A+B) in addition, but A+B = (A+B)+X in synergy. X depends completely on what both A and B consist of and not anything mathematically related. Because of its lack of consistency, synergy seems to be the best explanation for how all fusion works, as Kibitioshin is both a greatly powerful fusion and still weaker than SSJ3 Goku, being rivals "somehow" makes Potara fusion better, and messing up the fusion dance results in a fusion substancially weaker than the sum of the indivuals being fused. It even works with Namekkian fusion, as one fusor being the base can affect the fusion better than if the other was the base. It also explains how Kami and Piccolo seem to be substancially weaker than the Son of Kattatsu who split into them.

That's a great way of looking at it. Just the right amount of vagueness, since fusions surely can't be explained by straight maths and power levels alone.

[Senzu_Bean]

You'd get very different results depending on what you used.

It doesn't really matter. Fusing Vegeta and Goku will result the fusion character to be that strong, whether it is Kiri or Battle Power.

[hleV]

I really believe that Fusion has its own power measurement. Different from Freeza's powerlevel/battle power and Babidi's Kilis. That makes the multiplier of both fusees' power possible. Though it may be something like fusee A's power + fusee B's power * x, etc.

What I don't like is that it's nonsense to have a fusee A's power * fusee B's power if SSJ multipliers remain the same.

Goku - 10.
Vegeta - 9.
Vegetto - 10 * 9 = 90.
SSJ Vegetto - 90 * 50 = 4,500.

BUT:
SSJ Goku - 10 * 50 = 500.
SSJ Vegeta - 9 * 50 = 450.
SSJ Vegetto - 500 * 450 = 225,000.
Vegetto - 225,000 / 50 = 4,500.

Why not fuse while being SSJ2? Elder Kaioshin warned about fusing after going SSJ and suggested going SSJ after fusing. Why wouldn't Vegetto be able to descend if he born as SSJ? That's bullshit.

BTW for SSJ3, you must have extremely high powerlevel. Gotenks had it and going SSJ3 and maintaining the form was a lot easier for him than Goku.

[Questrider]

BTW for SSJ3, you must have extremely high powerlevel. Gotenks had it and going SSJ3 and maintaining the form was a lot easier for him than Goku.

How do you figure? Gotenks was said to be able to hold the form for an estimated 5 minutes. Goku lasted longer than that.
Also, the boys have to wait a full 30 minutes or so to fuse again while Goku could take the form again after a shorter break.

[hleV]

SSJ3 simply reduces fusion duration. That's why after Gotenks descended, he instantly defused.

EDIT: I may be wrong. However I believe that Gotenks descended only because his fusion duration had worn off.

[caejones]

The "five minutes" line doesn't even prove that SSJ3 cuts down fusion time... All it really indicates is that at the time Gotenks said that, he had five minutes left. Who knows how long he was fused before he busted out of the RoSaT...

[Xyex]

As the topic indicates, I’d like to discuss a few things.
For starters, the Potara fusion.

In the manga, Kibitokai makes a statement about how strong Vegetto is.
The Elder Kai replies something along the lines of: “You dolt. Those two are the one’s with power.” Ring a bell?
It is suggested then that the potara does not grant anything except the joining of powers into one body.
However, I have heard many times about multipliers, etc, which leads me to believe I don’t have all the facts.
Care to elaborate?

He was simply saying that the reason they were so strong was because Goku and Vegeta were strong. That doesn't negate the existence of a fusion multiplier, it just means that the Potara fusions don't result in a warrior of a certain level but a warrior who's power is partly based on that of the fusees.

Next we have the fusion dance which we see Goten and Trunks perform and again I am left very much confused.
Goten, on his own at the Super Saiyan level was nothing compared to Gohan. They trained and Gohan obviously had no problem sparing with the little guy.
So, in my own way of deciphering things, I am led to believe that a Goten/Trunks fusion simply produces an adult powered Super Saiyan. Go beyond that and the two kids manage to reach SSJ3. Is his SSJ3 comparable to Goku’s SSJ3? I have a hard time believing that.
It took 2 people to reach a form that a single Goku could reach. Add to that that the 2 people are kids and so while I see them reaching a level comparable to Goku, I’m not sold on the evidence that their form is in fact stronger. Does the fusion dance multiply any part of their power? Giving them access to greater levels of power?

Let’s just say for example that these basic numbers represent the level of transformation:
1=SSJ1
2=SSJ2
3=SSJ3.

Now, let’s say that on their own, each kid is 1.5 at most on the scale, since they can’t be a 2 since they can’t reach SSJ2 alone.
So, 1.5+1.5= 3.0, thus making if possible to reach the SSJ3 form.
It really seems that simple to me, thus how could 2 kids produce more power than a full grown adult who can already take the form without any aid?

The only way I see that happening is if the fusion dance can give you more power where you previously had limitations.
Can anyone better explain this?

Fusion is definitely more than the sum of their parts. Otherwise Gotenks wouldn't have been stronger than Goku, and he definitely was. Goku was only about even with Kid Buu and Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu, who Gotenks was about even with. So you've got something like:

Goku - 34
SSJ3 Goku - 5,100
Goten - 4
Trunks - 4
Gotenks - 50
SSJ3 Gotenks - 7,500

BTW for SSJ3, you must have extremely high powerlevel. Gotenks had it and going SSJ3 and maintaining the form was a lot easier for him than Goku.

How do you figure? Gotenks was said to be able to hold the form for an estimated 5 minutes. Goku lasted longer than that.
Also, the boys have to wait a full 30 minutes or so to fuse again while Goku could take the form again after a shorter break.

Gotenks was only able to remain fused for five minutes. He held the form perfectly and without any strain at all, and had no trouble going to his full power. Goku, on the other hand, suffered a lot of strain trying to use the form.

[Savage68]

SSJ3 simply reduces fusion duration. That's why after Gotenks descended, he instantly defused.

EDIT: I may be wrong. However I believe that Gotenks descended only because his fusion duration had worn off.

SSJ3 didn't reduce Gotenks' fusion time. He held the form for a while after being pulled down to base, and the only thing stated was that SSJ3 could be maintained for five minutes.

[Bussani]

You'd get very different results depending on what you used.

It doesn't really matter. Fusing Vegeta and Goku will result the fusion character to be that strong, whether it is Kiri or Battle Power.

Of course it matters. If you measure them with units that make each of them a 5, Vegetto would be 5 times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. If you measure them with units that make each of them a 1,000,000,000,000, then Vegetto would be 1,000,000,000,000 times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. You can make Vegetto as strong as you want just by coming up with a new measurement system if you take what the SEGs say literally.

[Xyex]

You'd get very different results depending on what you used.

It doesn't really matter. Fusing Vegeta and Goku will result the fusion character to be that strong, whether it is Kiri or Battle Power.

Of course it matters. If you measure them with units that make each of them a 5, Vegetto would be 5 times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. If you measure them with units that make each of them a 1,000,000,000,000, then Vegetto would be 1,000,000,000,000 times stronger than Goku and Vegeta. You can make Vegetto as strong as you want just by coming up with a new measurement system if you take what the SEGs say literally.

Except that no matter what the number is, the power is still the same. For instance, Goku and Freeza on Namek.

Scouter Points
SSJ Goku - 150,000,000
100% Freeza - 120,000,000

Rads
SSJ Goku - 100,000
100% Freeza - 80,000

Farmers
SSJ Goku - 30,000,000
100% Freeza - 24,000,000

Different numbers, same power. It's like with temperatures. 0 degrees Celsius and 32 degrees Fahrenheit are different numbers but both of them are the same actual temperature, the freezing point of water.

[Bussani]

Except that no matter what the number is, the power is still the same. For instance, Goku and Freeza on Namek.

Scouter Points
SSJ Goku - 150,000,000
100% Freeza - 120,000,000

Rads
SSJ Goku - 100,000
100% Freeza - 80,000

Farmers
SSJ Goku - 30,000,000
100% Freeza - 24,000,000

Different numbers, same power. It's like with temperatures. 0 degrees Celsius and 32 degrees Fahrenheit are different numbers but both of them are the same actual temperature, the freezing point of water.

Yeah, but taking your Celsius and Fahrenheit example:

5 degrees Celsius is 41 degrees Fahrenheit.
5 x 5 = 25
41 x 41 = 1,681

25 Celsius is not the same as 1,681 Fahrenheit.

[Senzu_Bean]

You'd get very different results depending on what you used.

It doesn't really matter. Fusing Vegeta and Goku will result the fusion character to be that strong, whether it is Kiri or Battle Power.

Of course it matters.

Are you actually saying Goku or whatever character that might be measured with Battle Power is stronger than measured with Kiri?

[caejones]

Are you actually saying Goku or whatever character that might be measured with Battle Power is stronger than measured with Kiri?

5 degrees Celsius is 41 degrees Fahrenheit.
5 x 5 = 25
41 x 41 = 1,681

25 Celsius is not the same as 1,681 Fahrenheit.

Not that they'd actually be different strengths, but that math is malleable.