Magical Being Boo - Necessary or Not?

[Majin Buu]

I think how you respond to the Boo arc is generally based on your feelings toward the Cell arc. I found the Cell arc took itself far too seriously and was generally dull, so I thought the self-parody that was the Boo arc was a great antidote to this.

Agreed. It seems to me that the people that hate the Buu arc just wanted a rehash of the Cell arc.

I've argued this before and others have pretty much said it in this thread, but the Buu arc is less formulaic than the previous couple of arcs that came before it (namely the Freeza and Cell arcs). A prime example is what Cajones said about how the heroes failed when they tried to fight Kid Buu directly and how they had to resort to other means to beat him. Simply overpowering the enemy through brute force like they've done pretty much every time before didn't work this time. For the first time in a long while (if ever) they actually had to get pretty tactical to overcome the villain.

And while I'm on the topic, why is there never an argument about the Freeza Arc? It recycles the "Goku arrives to save the day and everyone's WTF" plot device twice, abuses the Zenkai power-up to no end to have Goku and Vegeta catch up with the villains, has Vegeta bang on like a broken record about who's the Super Saiyan, which appears to basically be a guess of whoever's got the most strength 'cos of a Zenkai (Goku's a SSJ! No he's not! I'm a SSJ! No I'm not! Gohan's a SSJ! No he's not! I'm a SSJ! No I'm not! Goku's a SSJ!) And the "legend" of the Super Saiyan is a short-lived concept that vanishes the moment Vegeta does it.

Because the Freeza arc is very popular, so people conveniently ignore its flaws. Same thing for the Cell arc.

People go after the Buu arc more because it's not as popular as those two, therefore it's easier to single it out for its flaws while giving the more popular arcs a free pass despite having some of the same flaws.

[Godo]

Simply overpowering the enemy through brute force like they've done pretty much every time before didn't work this time. For the first time in a long while (if ever) they actually had to get pretty tactical to overcome the villain.

Eh, I'll give you some occasions where they had to get tactical to overcome a villain...

1) Kame Sennin vs. Piccolo Daimao - Since fighting Piccolo didn't work, Kame Sennin had to use the Mafuba instead, which Tenshinhan copied later.
2) Goku vs. Piccolo Jr. - To be able to defeat Piccolo Jr. without killing Kami, Goku had to taunt Piccolo into growing larger to defeat release Kami. And then, he had Bukujutsu up his sleeve as a last resort too.
3) Goku and Piccolo vs. Radditz - Since they were too weak to fight Radditz evenly, Goku and Piccolo resorted to Piccolo's Makankosappo tactic.
4) Goku and the gang vs. Freeza - When faced with the knowledge that Goku was weaker, and couldn't defeat Freeza by normal means, they resorted to the Genki Dama plan, just like when they later fought Buu.
5) Goku vs. Cell - Knowing that he was inferior to Cell regarding power and speed, Goku put everything on one card and combined his Kamehameha and his Shunkan Idou to take Cell by surprise.

I say that each of these moments are as tactical, if not more tactical than the means of Kid Buu's defeat.

And not to speak all the other moments the Genki Dama has been used as a last resort attack:

- Against Vegeta
- Against Freeza
- Against Kid Buu
- Against Tullece
- Against Lord Slug
- Against Super Android 13

And I can go on and on...

[jjgp1112]

And not only that, but the only reason why they had to get tactical in the Buu saga was because they all became mind numbingly stupid. It was an idiot plot at it's worst.

[Majin Buu]

1) Kame Sennin vs. Piccolo Daimao - Since fighting Piccolo didn't work, Kame Sennin had to use the Mafuba instead, which Tenshinhan copied later.
2) Goku vs. Piccolo Jr. - To be able to defeat Piccolo Jr. without killing Kami, Goku had to taunt Piccolo into growing larger to defeat release Kami. And then, he had Bukujutsu up his sleeve as a last resort too.
3) Goku and Piccolo vs. Radditz - Since they were too weak to fight Radditz evenly, Goku and Piccolo resorted to Piccolo's Makankosappo tactic.

The first instance you mentioned wasn't successful though, it ultimately came down to Goku overpowering Piccolo. You're right about the other two, but I did specify that it was namely the Freeza and Cell arcs that had gotten formulaic so it's ultimately moot.

4) Goku and the gang vs. Freeza - When faced with the knowledge that Goku was weaker, and couldn't defeat Freeza by normal means, they resorted to the Genki Dama plan, just like when they later fought Buu.

But it failed. The struggle with Freeza ultimately came down to Goku overpowering Freeza.

"5) Goku vs. Cell - Knowing that he was inferior to Cell regarding power and speed, Goku put everything on one card and combined his Kamehameha and his Shunkan Idou to take Cell by surprise."

Again, it failed. The struggle with Cell was ultimately decided by Gohan overpowering him.

I say that each of these moments are as tactical, if not more tactical than the means of Kid Buu's defeat.

But the thing is, most of the tactical moments you mentioned resulted in failure. They didn't result in victory. Most of the time brute force was what resulted in victory. The Buu arc was the first time in a long while (not ever, as you've proven so I stand corrected on that) where they had to get tactical to achieve victory as opposed to straight overpowering the enemy through brute force like they tried to do initially.

And not to speak all the other moments the Genki Dama has been used as a last resort attack:

- Against Vegeta
- Against Freeza

It failed both times though.

- Against Tullece
- Against Lord Slug
- Against Super Android 13

I was ignoring the movies, but if you include them, then yeah.

And not only that, but the only reason why they had to get tactical in the Buu saga was because they all became mind numbingly stupid. It was an idiot plot at it's worst.

Yeah, because Vegeta letting Cell become perfect, Kuririn smashing 18's power controller instead of turning her off, and Gohan refusing to kill Cell when he had the chance were much smarter decisions .

[jjgp1112]

But with Vegeta and Krillin, the whole purpose behind those plot twists happening was because of the two of them making blatantly stupid decisions, what with Trunks doing his bests to stop Vegeta from being an idiot, and then Piccolo saying that Vegeta screwed them all. And even Cell saying, "I'd like to thank you, because it was your stupidity that helped me become Perfect." The whole point of that was that Vegeta is an idiot. And not only that, but we knew that Cell had one last form, and it was Cell himself that exploited Vegeta's stupidity in the first place. Vegeta was about to kill Cell, until he brought that out of the left field. He outsmarted everyone. But with the Buu saga, they seemingly came up with a new brain injury for our heroes so that their latest attempt to beat Buu would be thwarted.

Gotenks: I'm gonna assuredly kill Buu! He killed everyone I know, an I'm gonna make him pay! Oh wait, I'm retarded. *defuses* OH GOD SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP US!

Piccolo:

Gohan: I'm here! I can beat Buu easily right now!

Now, the next plot twist is actually understandable, but what with us having 2 occasions already of someone being built up as the definitive answer to Buu, it was starting to get redundant.

Now, Goku saves the day!

Goku: hey Gohan, catch the earring so we can fuse and finally kill Buu!
Gohan: Unfortunately, I don't know how to catch stuff anymore!
Piccolo (inside Buu):

And not only that, but everybody's plans failing against previous villains was a testament to how strong said villains were. In the Buu saga, all of their plans would've worked if one of the important aspects of the plan didn't suffer the stupidity virus.

[Godo]

Text

Sure, they were a failure, but you can't say that the Genki Dama plan against Buu was fool proof either.
Against Freeza and Vegeta the Genki Dama wasn't strong enough.
Going by your definition, Kid Buu was defeated, not by tactics, but by sheer power.

[Savage68]

That's how every villain is killed.

[Majin Buu]

JJGP: I'm just going to quote myself here:

People go after the Buu arc more because it's not as popular as those two, therefore it's easier to single it out for its flaws while giving the more popular arcs a free pass despite having some of the same flaws.

You'll make excuses for it in the Cell arc because you like the Cell arc, but you'll criticize the Buu arc for doing the same thing because you don't like it.

Godo: I never said it was foolproof, what's your point?

It was tactics that lead to that Genki Dama being powerful enough. Without the plan that went into it, would the Genki Dama have worked? (or for that matter, even have been used?) No. That's why I consider the victory against Buu more of a tactical victory.

[Godo]

It was tactics that lead to that Genki Dama being powerful enough. Without the plan that went into it, would the Genki Dama have worked? No. That's why I consider the victory against Buu more of a tactical victory.

No it was pure luck. Goku never anticipated that the heavenly realm, the Nameks, and principally many other strong forces helping out.
Judging by the size of the Genki Dama prior to Earth contributing, I say that it was a success because of that more organisms than people of Earth helped out.

Myself, I think that the Buu Arc is one of my favorites, with most of the Cell Arc lying at the bottom.
But I still think that it's unfair to try to rise the Buu Arc to the skies using the Genki Dama as an example.

Instead, we can take up it's pros:

1) Vegetto
2) The concept of fusion overall
3) A little more time with Goten and Trunks
4) The different personalities of Buu and his rubbery abilities
5) Just being stronger than Buu doesn't make one a victor in a battle
6) Some time with Mr. Satan who painfully realizes his mistakes to become the hero for real
7) Teen Gohan becoming a real man and his potential release, and finally wearing his father's gi
8) Although outmatched, Piccolo becomes a mentor
9) Filler scenes with Yamcha owning Olibu and fighting Kuririn, and Mr. Satan looking for beer
10) A villain finally becomes good without much use of a force (Fat Buu), and is turned over with the help of a mere human.

And so on, and so on.

[Majin Buu]

No it was pure luck. Goku never anticipated that the heavenly realm, the Nameks, and principally many other strong forces helping out.
Judging by the size of the Genki Dama prior to Earth contributing, I say that it was a success because of that more organisms than people of Earth helped out

There was some luck involved (the presence of Mr.Satan for instance), I never said there wasn't. But to say that it was all luck a gross oversimplification. Without the plan, there would have been no victory period.

And my argument isn't really about the use of the Genki Dama itself (though it was nice to see it canonically succeed for once), it was mainly about the plan, the tactics that went into it as opposed to the brute force we've seen in the past couple arcs.

[Rocketman]

Simply overpowering the enemy through brute force like they've done pretty much every time before didn't work this time.

Iuno, Vegetto was working well until the Author intervened with some bullshit.


Also, the Spirit Bomb was a stupid plan. You know what would've worked better? Gogeta.

[jjgp1112]

Simply overpowering the enemy through brute force like they've done pretty much every time before didn't work this time.

Iuno, Vegetto was working well until the Author intervened with some bullshit.

Yeah, I was about to say that. Vegetto would've pounded Buu to a pulp if it weren't for the "magical defusing content" within Buu's stomach.

[B]

Also, the Spirit Bomb was a stupid plan. You know what would've worked better? Gogeta.

Normal fusion doing better than Potara fusion? Put down the Kool-Aid, son.

[jjgp1112]

Also, the Spirit Bomb was a stupid plan. You know what would've worked better? Gogeta.

Normal fusion doing better than Potara fusion? Put down the Kool-Aid, son.

But if he did a Normal Fusion, he would've still squashed Kid Buu easily.

Funnily enough, when I first saw those episodes, it was in Japanese without subtitles, and the whole time I was thinking they were talking about fusing into Gogeta. So when they didn't, I was like "WFT?!"

[Ahiru77]

But with Vegeta and Krillin, the whole purpose behind those plot twists happening was because of the two of them making blatantly stupid decisions, what with Trunks doing his bests to stop Vegeta from being an idiot, and then Piccolo saying that Vegeta screwed them all. And even Cell saying, "I'd like to thank you, because it was your stupidity that helped me become Perfect." The whole point of that was that Vegeta is an idiot. And not only that, but we knew that Cell had one last form, and it was Cell himself that exploited Vegeta's stupidity in the first place. Vegeta was about to kill Cell, until he brought that out of the left field. He outsmarted everyone. But with the Buu saga, they seemingly came up with a new brain injury for our heroes so that their latest attempt to beat Buu would be thwarted.

Gotenks: I'm gonna assuredly kill Buu! He killed everyone I know, an I'm gonna make him pay! Oh wait, I'm retarded. *defuses* OH GOD SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP US!

Piccolo:

Gohan: I'm here! I can beat Buu easily right now!

Now, the next plot twist is actually understandable, but what with us having 2 occasions already of someone being built up as the definitive answer to Buu, it was starting to get redundant.

Now, Goku saves the day!

Goku: hey Gohan, catch the earring so we can fuse and finally kill Buu!
Gohan: Unfortunately, I don't know how to catch stuff anymore!
Piccolo (inside Buu):

And not only that, but everybody's plans failing against previous villains was a testament to how strong said villains were. In the Buu saga, all of their plans would've worked if one of the important aspects of the plan didn't suffer the stupidity virus.

*After I pull myself together* I do try to avoid the "Gotenks" at all costs.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, because Vegeta letting Cell become perfect, Kuririn smashing 18's power controller instead of turning her off, and Gohan refusing to kill Cell when he had the chance were much smarter decisions .

Vegeta being a cocky bastard is a character flaw. Krillin liking the ladies is a character flaw. Really powerful fighters wanting their enemies to suffer (ie SSJ Goku on Namek, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegetto, SSJ4 Gogeta) could also be considered a character flaw, which more often than not results in a backfiring plan. Those all make some degree of sense, as the stupidity results from flaws withing the characters.

Gohan not being able to catch can even be excused given the beat down he had just received.

However, Vegetto letting himself get absorbed so he can prevent the death of everyone inside of Buu when he kills him, even though they can just be revived with Namek's Dragonballs, and then defuses simply because he's inside of Buu, is not character a flaw, it is just there for plot convenience.

Oh, and the lack of Gogeta vs. Kid Buu was utter bullshit.

[jjgp1112]

Gohan not being able to catch can even be excused given the beat down he had just received.

Actually, at that point, Gohan had been fully healed by Dende

But I agree with you on all counts. Vegeta letting #18 get absorbed was a character flaw that was specifically pointed out and exploited by Cell and was a cause of concern for everyone around him at the time.

[Zephyr]

Gohan not being able to catch can even be excused given the beat down he had just received.

Actually, at that point, Gohan had been fully healed by Dende

Really? I haven't watched that part for a while now. In that case Gohan not being able to catch is just plot convenience.

[B]

Everyone is stupid, Piccolo hates it.

The thing about this, the Buu arc is literally a huge parody of how ridiculously overblown the series had become. Gotenks' Power DWI is a gag; he's also not Goten or Trunks, but his own person. Super Saiyan 3 is like, a canon version of non-fans criticisms of the transformation; outlandish and near-pointless. Buu constantly coming back for more is a clear mocking of what Cell and Freeza did. The redundancy, as you put it, is intended. It's fine to not like the saga, but going into it(or most of DB) with a straight-serious outlook won't bode well. It's DB, it aint gotta explain shit

And about the Gogeta thing, I guess that's a whole 'nother discussion. He's not canon; he can do whatever the hell wants power-wise, such as one-shot Janemba, so gauging where he'd be at within the series is difficult. Janemba himself is a bit of a hassle; is he that powerful, or does he just have insane abilities? SS3 Gotenks was damn near close to Evil Buu in terms of raw strength, so then you take Evil Buu and give him SS3 Gotenks, Piccolo, and Mystically Fellated Gohan. Vegetto deals with that no problem, but Gogeta? And then you get into the insane amount of speculation on whether or not Genuine Buu is weaker than the previous one... Can Vegetto deal with him? Way too many crazy factors to just out and say "Gogeta wins it."

[Majin Buu]

Vegeta being a cocky bastard is a character flaw. Krillin liking the ladies is a character flaw.

Then Gotenks being a cocky bastard is character flaw as well. And going by that logic, JJGP should excuse Gotenks failing against Buu because it happened due to Gotenks' character flaw of being a cocky bastard, just like he excuses Vegeta letting Cell absorb 18 because it happened due to Vegeta's character flaw of being a cocky bastard.

However, Vegetto letting himself get absorbed so he can prevent the death of everyone inside of Buu when he kills him, even though they can just be revived with Namek's Dragonballs, and then defuses simply because he's inside of Buu, is not character a flaw, it is just there for plot convenience.

Yes, that was a plot convenience, who said it wasn't?