Why all the hate for Cell and Buu Sagas?

[AgitoZ]

Every single thing after Freeza is based on the good guys suddenly turning retarded, so the story goes to shit.

I've got to agree there.
I mean, at the Freeza Arc, Vegeta knew about him being inferior to Freeza, so he stole the Dragonballs to gain immortality to be able to defeat him. It was a sly tactic.
In the Cell Arc, he lets Cell become perfect without much thought and gets his ass kicked.
So...yeah.

Or how about when Goku let Vegeta live.

What about when Gohan went blind and didn't catch the potara in the Boo arc?

I still like this arc though.

[LeprikanGT]

Every single thing after Freeza is based on the good guys suddenly turning retarded, so the story goes to shit.

I've got to agree there.
I mean, at the Freeza Arc, Vegeta knew about him being inferior to Freeza, so he stole the Dragonballs to gain immortality to be able to defeat him. It was a sly tactic.
In the Cell Arc, he lets Cell become perfect without much thought and gets his ass kicked.
So...yeah.

If Vegeta didn't let Cell get stronger, there would have been no need for the other Z warriors to get stronger and they would have all died when Babidi and Dabura showed up. THAT is plot.

[Cipher]

If vegeta didn't let Cell get stronger, there would have been no need for the other Z warriors to get stronger and they would have all died when babidi and Dabura showed up. THAT is plot.

That's a pretty fucking terrible plot.

I will say this, as much as I enjoy the Buu arc. Looking at the way the series plays out after Freeza under any level of scrutiny, it immediately falls apart.

Prior to the defeat of Freeza, you never felt the series was relying on haphazard coincidences. I mean, there were plot contrivances, sure. But most of the conflicts were things the heroes threw themselves into, and there was that general sense of escalation. The characters get stronger for the Tenkaichi Budokais. Piccolo is freed because of a former villain's incompetence, and when villains like Piccolo and the Saiyans do show up, the heroes still are nowhere near the level required to beat them until they figure out a way around it. Finally, you have the the heroes unwittingly throwing themselves into the conflict on Namek, where they're still entirely outmatched until they find some ways to cleverly bullshit around it.

But after that? Whoo, boy.

If we assume that Gero had been working on these all-powerful Androids since the end of the Red Ribbon arc, here are the exact things needed to happen in order for the heroes to have had a chance of surviving, with or without Trunks' warning:

1) The characters decide to go into fucking space for some reason, where they encountered a whole new level of powerful beings.
2) Goku has to become the strongest warrior in the universe due to a series of ridiculous power-ups and last minute saves.

And then you get to the Buu arc. Here are the things that needed to happen in order for the characters to have stood any chance in the Buu arc:

1) All of the nonsense pre-Cell arc had to have occurred. All of them.
2) The characters needed to have decided to fight against a series of ridiculously powerful androids.
3) The characters needed to have their asses kicked.
4) A bio-engineered insect man from the future had to have returned to the pass to confront them.
5) Vegeta had do every stupid thing he did.
6) Goku had to have died while fighting said insect man, and continued training in the afterlife.

What the hell?

Again, pre-Freeza arcs avoided this by
1) Increasing the threat level by much smaller increments
2) Having the characters reach new powers wholly within the arc itself
3) Being brought upon by the characters' own actions (i.e., they wouldn't have happened anyway)

But when you think about the fact that either Cell or Buu would have killed everyone if every single random event in series before then didn't play out the way it did, it makes your brain hurt.

[Rocketman]

If Vegeta didn't let Cell get stronger, there would have been no need for the other Z warriors to get stronger and they would have all died when Babidi and Dabura showed up. THAT is plot.

Would they? Goku and Gohan were already training for Mastered SS and would've finished that training regardless. Then Vegeta would've seen that training and resolved to amp up his own training. Since Dabura was roughly equal to Cell, the Cell Games-era guys would've been able to fight him. Add on seven years of training, remove Vegeta's reasons for demanding a fight right then and there, and remove SS2 Gohan giving half power to Buu - if Vegeta killed Cell, Buu would not have been released.

[LeprikanGT]

If Vegeta didn't let Cell get stronger, there would have been no need for the other Z warriors to get stronger and they would have all died when Babidi and Dabura showed up. THAT is plot.

Would they? Goku and Gohan were already training for Mastered SS and would've finished that training regardless. Then Vegeta would've seen that training and resolved to amp up his own training. Since Dabura was roughly equal to Cell, the Cell Games-era guys would've been able to fight him. Add on seven years of training, remove Vegeta's reasons for demanding a fight right then and there, and remove SS2 Gohan giving half power to Buu - if Vegeta killed Cell, Buu would not have been released.

There would have been no SS2 and there wwould a been the same period of peace and they would have been weakened still. How did you come to such a Bold conclusion of "if Vegeta killed Cell, Buu would not have been released."?

And of course the laster arcs WOULD have happened, just no one would be strong enough to figh back. The good guys NEED stronger bad guys to GIVE them a reason to get stronger to beat them because you KNOW the next villian will be even stronger. So you HAVE to have reasons for villians to get stronger.

[Rocketman]

There would have been no SS2 and there wwould a been the same period of peace and they would have been weakened still. How did you come to such a Bold conclusion of "if Vegeta killed Cell, Buu would not have been released."?

I just told you how. Goku and Vegeta wouldn't stop training, and without the timelimit for Goku, Vegeta wouldn't go Majin because he wouldn't need to fight Goku right then and there. Dabura was about Cell's strength, and the Cell Games guys were nearing that already.

[Perfect]

There would have been no SS2 and there wwould a been the same period of peace and they would have been weakened still. How did you come to such a Bold conclusion of "if Vegeta killed Cell, Buu would not have been released."?

I just told you how. Goku and Vegeta wouldn't stop training, and without the timelimit for Goku, Vegeta wouldn't go Majin because he wouldn't need to fight Goku right then and there. Dabura was about Cell's strength, and the Cell Games guys were nearing that already.

There's a few factors that you're leaving out. If you take in all the coincidental things that happened during the Cell Games and Cell died at the hands of Vegeta, we can explore a few more aspects.
Dabura is compared to be around Cell's level by Goku, which Cell? It's anyone's guess, Super Perfect, Perfect, etc.
The perspective in which he's pertaining to could also be in terms of how dangerous he is. It's anyone's guess.
For all we know, Dabura could get his spit on Goku and Vegeta, leaving it to Gohan.
My point here is, you could be right, you could be wrong. There's too many possible events that could take place to really know.

[Castor Troy]

People hate the Cell and Buu sagas?

[Rocketman]

People hate the Cell and Buu sagas? :shock:

Yes, because they're mostly crap.

[penguintruth]

The Androids/Cell arc has probably the most complex and interesting storytelling in Dragon Ball, aside from a few bumps, and the climax is very satisfying, especially in the animated version.

I can see disliking the Buu arc. It just feels so unnecessary through most of it, but the Cell arc is pretty brilliant, for Dragon Ball.

[ShadowDude112]

I think they're quite good. Especially the Buu saga since it's so silly.

[Cipher]

The Androids/Cell arc has probably the most complex and interesting storytelling in Dragon Ball, aside from a few bumps, and the climax is very satisfying, especially in the animated version.

"Androids are coming. You must fight them!"
"ARGH, we trained but we're not strong enough!"
"Cell is here now, and we learned his backstory pretty much immediately! We must fight him too!"
"ARGH, we're still not strong enough!"

There's a brief, brief period in there when Cell is running around and the Androids are still after Goku that's vaguely complex and interesting. But if you think by any stretch of the imagination that it's a more intricate or dire set-up than all the cat-and-mouse games on Namek, I have a sophisticated drama called WWF for you.

I can see disliking the Buu arc. It just feels so unnecessary through most of it, but the Cell arc is pretty brilliant, for Dragon Ball.

Oh, I think it feels very necessary, tonally, at least after the Cell arc. It's like a required chaser.

[penguintruth]

"Androids are coming. You must fight them!"
"ARGH, we trained but we're not strong enough!"
"Cell is here now, and we learned his backstory pretty much immediately! We must fight him too!"
"ARGH, we're still not strong enough!"

There's a brief, brief period in there when Cell is running around and the Androids are still after Goku that's vaguely complex and interesting. But if you think by any stretch of the imagination that it's a more intricate or dire set-up than all the cat-and-mouse games on Namek, I have a sophisticated drama called WWF for you.

The use of "alternate timeline" time travel rather than nonesensical and insulting traditional time travel tropes, Vegeta's struggle to recover from discovering that even as a Super Saiyan there are more powerful beings, Trunks' reactions to his father, Piccolo becoming one with Kami after so long, Gohan coming into his own finally. This is all much more complex than playing "hide the Dragon Ball" on Namek, and more interesting, too, because it doesn't get stretched to oblivion.

Hell, I'm not saying any part of Dragon Ball has real sophistication, but if I were to pick which part had shades of it, it would be the Androids and Cell. It kept me hooked the whole time without my attention waning.

[Bura]

I dislike the Cell arc because Cell is the most unlikeable villain for me, I liked him at his first stage when he was all mysterious and killing people, but when he got perfect he also got boring and lacked actual purpose (I know, Buu also doesn't really have a purpose but he just does what he's told). I also disliked the dumb moves of the heroes, Vegeta being waaay too overconfident, Goku sending Gohan into the field even though he doesn't really want to, etc. Oh, and Cell got rid of #17! And I liked him.
I liked #17 and #18 more as villains, they were unique and they never encountered something like them before while Cell is just your plain old super-strong villain.
And I agree, humor was also strongly lacking this season.

Anyway, it's also mostly about personal feelings. I really liked the Buu arc. Because of the humor perhaps... And Vegeta was way more likeable then too. I just enjoyed myself way more than I did during the Cell Games. Ugh, the Cell Games -_-
Another reason could be that I don't really like Gohan, and he got most of the spotlights.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Like someone else said, probably the biggest part of the hate for Cell and Boo Arc is because they are, for the most part, opposite extremes of each other. The Cell Arc undergoes a more serious, sci-fi tone, while the Boo Arc is more loose, comedic and magical. The other reasons for why they get so much hate are endless. You've got one side of people claiming that the Cell Arc is apparently too serious (as if the Saiyan and Freeza arcs were all flying pixies and candyfloss) and stuff like that's the point where the Super Saiyan legend was diminished because of more people being able to do it and SSJ2 and whatnto, and then there's the other side who claim that the Boo Arc has more obvious plotholes and retarded plot twists than the former (see: Vegetto splitting in two because of Boo's body, Gohan's mystic power-up, Boo's fucked-up transformations), and that it didn't seem like Toriyama was taking it as seriously as the others.

Personally, I prefer the Cell Arc to the Boo Arc, because I just feel it stands up as a more polished, less retarded arc. The Boo Arc, to me, didn't feel as connected to the series as the other arcs, like a tack-on almost, since Toriyama basically crapped on the whole "Gohan being the hero and taking over Goku's role" by having Gohan slacking off and Goku coming back to life. Plus, things just felt more repetitive, since Boo regenerating from every damn little blast just got boring. I just think it was unnecessary. That being said, it had its good points. Vegeta's character development being finished, Mr. Satan not being as much of a tit, etc. I can still enjoy the Boo Arc for what it is, but I just think the characters got too strong, things got too silly and just too repetitive (though that's probably partly because it was the last arc in the series and Dragon Ball's always been repetitive anyway).

But whatever. Cell Arc's got some bad bits too. The characters did get retarded. They had a chance to stop Gero from building the Androids with the Androids, but all the Z-Warriors cared about was having a good ol' brawl and didn't give a shit about innocent people getting killed. And you can't forget Kuririn's hard-on for #18 stopping him from shutting down the Androids and saving the planet from Cell. And the fact that Vegeta turned from being a sly, almost honourable warrior to a whiny, insufferable jerk who didn't stop going on about wanting to beat Goku.

[penguintruth]

The characters did get retarded. They had a chance to stop Gero from building the Androids with the Androids, but all the Z-Warriors cared about was having a good ol' brawl and didn't give a shit about innocent people getting killed.

It's adorable that you think these characters are of sound mind or moral fiber. Goku spared Vegeta, the guy who vowed to return and kill everyone, simply because he wanted to fight him later.

They're a bunch of fighting maniacs. As long as the Dragon Balls are around, they figure they can wish back innocent victims.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The characters did get retarded. They had a chance to stop Gero from building the Androids with the Androids, but all the Z-Warriors cared about was having a good ol' brawl and didn't give a shit about innocent people getting killed.

It's adorable that you think these characters are of sound mind or moral fiber. Goku spared Vegeta, the guy who vowed to return and kill everyone, simply because he wanted to fight him later.

They're a bunch of fighting maniacs. As long as the Dragon Balls are around, they figure they can wish back innocent victims.

Yeah, I agree, forget what I said.

[Senzu_Bean]

People hate the Cell and Buu sagas?

Yes, because they're mostly crap.

I can't understand how people hate the Artificial Humans and Majin Buu arcs yet rub all against the Freeza arc, which is arguably the most fucked-up arc of the entire story.

[Ahiru77]

I think everything was great untill PC announced the "Cell games". With that the overall story took a huge punch in the stomage and never really recovered.

They're not the best, but I still don't hate those sagas. They had their moments and 1 episode.

[AnimeMaakuo]

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