Do you guys feel that Kai was a quick Cash-In?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

You know...I would have been willing to sacrifice a Pop Idol group doing an inappropriate ending song for the sake of brand new animation <_<.

I think we all can agree on that.

Some people don't like reading subtitles. I don't like fast-forwarding through a show.

That's nice.

[MR.Mark]

I didn't enjoy every cheesy song that the Z adaption produced. Also, am I the only one that can give two shits about going over a nerd-rage over "stunt" casting like Dende in Kai? I mean it's fucking DENDE, besides that I thought Aya Hirano did just fine for what was needed for the character.

The "stock footage" argument also continues to hold no water, because Kai retains the bulk of the manga's plot and even retains filler throughout. Mainly non story contradicting, long panning sots, staring, and general bullshit is cut. For every one nice filler scene you lose in Kai, you also lose 10 shitty ones, the ends justify the means.

[VegettoEX]

I didn't enjoy every cheesy song that the Z adaption produced. Also, am I the only one that can give two shits about going over a nerd-rage over "stunt" casting like Dende in Kai? I mean it's fucking DENDE, besides that I thought Aya Hirano did just fine for what was needed for the character.

It would have been fine if it was a quick appearance to voice the character, but it wasn't limited to just that, and it was just one example of the bigger problem.

Remember that Hirano also recorded a song for the first DragonBall Kai Song Collection ("CURE ~ I'll Be Here ~"). I'll concede that it's certainly not the first time that actors have done in-character image songs -- that's something we've seen plenty of times over the decades -- but it's different when you bring in a notable idol-esque chippie (one who's gone on record as saying she doesn't want to just do this voice acting nonsense) to do a voice and sing a song, which is a clear grab at her extended audience. Of course, bringing in a new audience is cool cool dandy with me, but what does anyone have to gain with a cheap grab at the idol-of-the-day scene...? You're not going to get a sticky audience out of that, which in turn isn't going to bring in a consistent revenue stream.

The closest example I can think of with the original DBZ was Megumi Hayashibara voicing that little blind boy that Majin Buu heals. The big difference there was... ya' know... Hayashibara is a huge name in the voice acting business with tons of notable roles under her belt. DBZ never had to resort to that kind of nonsense a la Hirano and AKB48. It stood on its own. The fact that Kai does so poorly domestically (that being "in Japan") that it has to rely on these tricks for a cheap buck is just painfully sad. Almost makes me wonder if they should have just forgone the 20th anniversary celebration via Kai in favor of something else in a few years. Maybe the 2002 revival was too soon...? I mean, it was only five years after DBGT ended...

[MR.Mark]

Once again...it's fucking DENDE, sorry but what was wrong with Aya Hirano's performance? Yes Dende is around longer for a side character, but depth wise he's no more complex than Nail was. Hirano seemed just as effective as a small kind boy as the last actress was, am I missing something here?

Who cares about marketing politics of kai when it doesn't effect the actual show that your watching? That's fanboy nonsense to me, just desperate reasons to hate Kai because it's not the beloved show you remember.

Maybe if Aya Hirano was voicing Son Goku and toei re-wrote dialogue to help sell her cds, I'd be nerd raging then, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the logic here.

[VegettoEX]

You seem to be a lot more angry and "nerd raging", if you will, than I am. You're also really hung up on "DUDE IT'S DENDE", to the point that I'm not sure you actually read what else I mentioned.

Just happily providing an explanation of what you asked for. If you don't want to converse about it, why are you even asking...?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I agree with MR.Mark here. I don't think there was anything inherently wrong with casting Aya Hirano as Dende. Perhaps Dende would've still had a character song if Dende was played by random actress #354, perhaps not. Does the fact that it was a "stunt casting" affect the actual show? No, not unless you think Hirano's a terrible actress or something. From what I've seen of her (basically just Haruhi Suzumiya and its character CDs), she's actually a reasonably talented actress and singer.

[VegettoEX]

I think you folks are creating a villain to fight against that doesn't exist. I've mentioned it before, but I never actually watched past the Saiyan arc in Kai (other than two Trunks episodes). I can't comment on Hirano's acting ability as Dende (other than the one song on the CD). I have no idea how she did. Maybe she's amazing. Maybe it's the best minor role in the history of ever.

I don't know. I don't really care. I abandoned Kai for a plethora of reasons before it ever got to that point.

The rest of my honest and friendly explanation still stands. I compared the casting and marketing ploys from the two different versions in conjunction with the financial situation of the franchise.

I don't really understand the "CURSE CURSE DENDE CURSE NERD RAGE" response at all. Seems a little silly to me.

[MR.Mark]

I just think it's ridiculous and biased, add to the fact that I asked a few times what was wrong with Hirano's performance. All you could give me were just marketing politics that doesn't really effect anything.

So when I say "dude it's Dende" I'm saying DUDE IT'S DENDE. If it wasn't for informative Dragonball fans sites like yours I would probably NEVER of known this "stunt casting" ever occurred. I'd only notice that Dende was one of the many re-casts in Kai. Maybe if oh, her performance was actually terrible, I'd do research, find out the crime against humanity that was her casting and I'd be with ya. However, she seemed fine to me, in fact I found her voice for Dende more pleasant than the previous actress.

In the end, all I'm able to decipher from your complaint, is that it's fine to have pop singer voice minor expendable characters, BUT, they have to have years of experience under there belt, then it's OK.

AKB48 could fade into obscurity tomorrow for all I care, Aya Hirano did fine as Dende, I could care less about her band.

WHY DOES IT MATTER?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't really understand the "CURSE CURSE DENDE CURSE NERD RAGE" response at all. Seems a little silly to me.

I'm hoping you weren't lumping me in with MR.Mark, here. I tend to keep my responses fairly friendly.

I'm not trying to make a huge deal out of it, I just don't think the "stunt casting" itself was a huge deal. I mean, Dende's seiyuu passed away, correct? So they had to get somebody. Was it wrong to hire somebody popular?

And were they shoving the fact that it was Aya Hirano in everybody's faces? Genuinely curious here, because I honestly don't even follow Japanese DBKai.

[MR.Mark]

And were they shoving the fact that it was Aya Hirano in everybody's faces? Genuinely curious here, because I honestly don't even follow Japanese DBKai.

Like I said, I honestly never would of known if not for fan sites, it was just Dende with a new (and good) voice to me.

Oh, and RAGE CURSE RAGE!

[VegettoEX]

Cursing, saying the phrase "nerd rage" over and over, and complaining about an explanation you've asked for is a little hypocritical, don't ya' think? Unless you're going for a self-parody, or something...

You're absolutely right -- in terms of living in a silo and watching the show, if Hirano did fine as Dende (again, I have no idea as I did not watch it) and you don't mind the new closing theme, you're absolutely fine just going about your day-to-day business.

I talk about the marketing and financial situation for a reason, though. By reaching out to the idol world (both in voice casting and song performances), the production team behind the franchise is doing something they've never done before, and something the series has never had to rely on before. It's neat to do experiments like that, except that in the timespan that they've been doing it, the franchise has been tanking in Japan. That's where it affects you.

If by doing these sort of things the series cannot thrive in its own native land, you won't have anything else to enjoy. We've talked about how they're not even sure the series can make it to the Buu arc. If paying for Hirano and AKB48 (again, just two random examples) is bleeding them dry to the point that the series cannot be self-sustaining, then yes -- your enjoyment is affected.

I'm hoping you weren't lumping me in with MR.Mark, here. I tend to keep my responses fairly friendly.

Nope, you're a pretty cool guy! No worries!

I'm not trying to make a huge deal out of it, I just don't think the "stunt casting" itself was a huge deal. I mean, Dende's seiyuu passed away, correct? So they had to get somebody. Was it wrong to hire somebody popular?

Nah, you're dead on -- they had to get somebody. It's just that the "somebody" they got was a voice-actress-of-the-moment that they knew they could get a song out of. That's... just a little weird. See rest of post.

[penguintruth]

I don't see why Aya Hirano being Dende is even a big deal. It's not like they're expanding the role for her. If they inserted extra Dende scenes, that's a problem. She's just voicing a character already there, and not even a major character. It's just a bonus. If it helps bring in more fans, more power to Toei.

DB Kai has problems, but stunt casting doesn't rank for me.

[MR.Mark]

Nah, you're dead on -- they had to get somebody. It's just that the "somebody" they got was a voice-actress-of-the-moment that they knew they could get a song out of. That's... just a little weird. See rest of post.

It's called marketing, see the rest of the world, maybe you'd have a new take on the whole situation if you heard her actual performance? Are you trying to suggests pop singers are gonna destroy the anime industry as we know it?

Mr Plinket: WHAT DA FUUUUCK?!

Suddenly I'm living in a silo because I don't care that Toei made a random mainstream casting choice for a minor character, I see. For the record, I don't care much for wings of my heart or whatever it's called. But I enjoy Dragonball because of the story and characters, I don't have to enjoy all the songs and music attached to it. I don't enjoy every song from the DB and DBZ adaption either, so what?

I love a lot of movies from the 80's, many have popular songs that either play during the film itself or after the credits. Many of said songs are now considered dated or even laughable, but in the end if you enjoy the film, even with dated popular music, who cares?

If it helps bring in more fans, more power to Toei.

Exactly.

[VegettoEX]

I don't see why Aya Hirano being Dende is even a big deal. It's not like they're expanding the role for her. If they inserted extra Dende scenes, that's a problem. She's just voicing a character already there, and not even a major character. It's just a bonus. If it helps bring in more fans, more power to Toei.

That's the thing, though -- it's not just Aya Hirano. That's the one you all keep getting stuck on, but it's one little aspect of a bigger treatment.

Not having Kenji Utsumi do his other roles (just Shenlong), not bringing back folks who ARE alive like Sho Hayami (Zarbon), having the comedy group come in to do voices, not bringing back Kikuchi to score it but going with Yamamoto (who's almost certainly cheaper), re-tracing random scenes, not bringing back Hironobu Kageyama in any capacity, having Hirano sing a song, having other J-Rock singers come in to sing songs (Freeza metal song on first CD), getting AKB48 out of the blue, poor DVD releases (though the Blu-rays are fine), switching up the timeslot to go alongside One Piece, pumping out the game releases (and even re-branding at least one under "Kai")...

All of these are happening at a time when the franchise is making exponentially less money. Change for the sake of change doesn't inherently mean "success". Sure, there are a variety of other factors to take into consideration (like the economy, and the international market helping make up for the domestic tank)... but it's all fascinating to look at, regardless of what any one individual thinks about the "quality" of any of those decisions. If numbers are what tell the story, it's *NOT* bringing in any new fans... or at least fans that are paying for anything.

I don't know or care if any individual actually likes any of these aspects (I like some, I dislike others; I'm sure most of you fall in the same camp) -- that's not the question put forth in the original post, though. The question was whether or not Kai was a quick cash-in. The answer is "yes". It's clearly not sustaining itself, meaning there probably won't be a long-tail of profit. Whatever money they're grabbing now is almost certainly a one-shot grab, ultimately leaving the franchise to flounder for a while in the near future.

I'm also beginning to suspect that MR.Mark is participating in an entirely different conversation than I am.

[MR.Mark]

I'm also beginning to suspect that MR.Mark is participating in an entirely different conversation than I am.

Nope, I'm afraid that all your complaints translate to one common thing, change, and you don't like it.

But you know what, your entitled to love DBZ!

Just don't try to suggest that Dragon Ball is "tanking" because Hironobu Kageyama isn't singing songs for Kai.

The question was whether or not Kai was a quick cash-in. The answer is "yes". It's clearly not sustaining itself, meaning there probably won't be a long-tail of profit. Whatever money they're grabbing now is almost certainly a one-shot grab, ultimately leaving the franchise to flounder for a while in the near future.

In the end, does it really matter? I mean, unless Kai is in such danger that it might actually end it's run without completing the Buu arc? Toriyama ended the manga years ago, how can Kai honestly be a bad thing to Dragonball? Unless we all want another GT, or more half-assed video games.

[penguintruth]

But VegettoEX, some of those problems you mentioned are a lot more significant than stunt casting. If you dwell on such a minor problem, it makes your points about the bigger issues seem trivial.

That's like criticizing the President for his policies and then adding, "And he wears his tie crooked!"

[VegettoEX]

MR.Mark, you converse very rudely. I will not warn your account since I am the one actively conversing with you, but I would highly recommend you tone down your attitude and try to act like a nice person.

penguintruth, again, I'm not trying to harp on Hirano -- you all keep bringing it up again and again as if it's the only thing going on, which we all know is not true. Even when I moved on in a further explanation, you brought it back up again.

I've said just about everything I can possibly say, but I'll re-iterate again -- this isn't about whether or not you actually "like" any of these aspects (I like some, I dislike some, you like some, you dislike some). It's actually about whether or not Kai was a quick cash-grab. All signs point to yes. The production team has cheaped-out on some areas, and splurged in other "hot-thing-of-the-moment" areas, which by its very definition is a quick cash-grab.

You latched on to just one random thing again (this time Hironobu Kageyama), and confuse correlation with causation. Never in a million years would I suggest that the lack of Hironobu theme songs is a primary reason for Kai doing so poorly domestically. All of those production aspects together, though, are the realistic situation, which happen to be taking place during an unprecedented downturn for the franchise. It's clear that, at this rate, the series will not sustain itself domestically (that is, in Japan -- we've seen this from everything ranging from general franchise finances, down to particular companies like Bandai and their franchise-specific finances going down the tubes). It will have to rely on the international markets for the time being.

All of that does affect everyone, regardless of any one, particular production aspect and if you liked it or not.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Nope, you're a pretty cool guy! No worries!

Cool, thanks!

Not having Kenji Utsumi do his other roles (just Shenlong), not bringing back folks who ARE alive like Sho Hayami (Zarbon), having the comedy group come in to do voices, not bringing back Kikuchi to score it but going with Yamamoto (who's almost certainly cheaper), not bringing back Hironobu Kageyama in any capacity

You know, I've known about all of these issues with DBKai, but I never once considered the fact that maybe they couldn't afford these guys like Kikuchi, Kageyama, and Sho Hayami. Makes perfect sense though, considering what the voice actor for Kaioshin (his name escapes me) told you at his panel.

[penguintruth]

actually about whether or not Kai was a quick cash-grab. All signs point to yes. The production team has cheaped-out on some areas, and splurged in other "hot-thing-of-the-moment" areas, which by its very definition is a quick cash-grab.

Oh, well yeah, it's obviously a cash grab, I didn't think we were still questioning that this late in the thread.

[VegettoEX]

Oh, well yeah, it's obviously a cash grab, I didn't think we were still questioning that this late in the thread.

Well, I jumped in hoping to clarify and put in context the Hirano thing, but the conversation got stuck on that for a few posts, so I did my best to swing it back around to what I assume is the already-arrived-at-general-consensus .