Sub Fans: What's Wrong with Your Version?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

My biggest problem with the original version is Adult Gokū's voice. I have other problems with the original version (such as the music), but this is the main one for me. I know I'm going to get flammed for saying this, but I just can't sugar-coat it. It is one of the biggest miscasts in voice acting history, IMO. I'm not a Nozawa-hater. I love her portrayal as Kid Gokū, just not as Adult Gokū.


I know somebody's bound to retort me saying something like: "Gokū's still a naïve child at heart, and his voice reflects that". Personally, I really don't buy that. Why? Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age. I know there are some exceptions, but this the general rule. A fourty year-old, muscular man with a high-pitched voice, doesn't go down well with me. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

[obiwan23s]

To be honest, I don't have much of a bone to pick with the original version of either show (DB or Z). I've yet to watch GT because I don't necessarily care to watch something that's not part of the manga story, but I'll give it a chance after I finish watching Z again thru the Dragon Box release. The filler does get progressively worse as the show goes on. The filler in Dragon Ball really isn't that bad at all, and the early Z stuff like the robot, Snake Princess, Goku falling into Hell, etc. is all pretty good even for filler. The filler I don't like is the staring, stalling with all the powering up, and so forth. Basically the things most people knock on DB for anyway.

Personally one thing I've always disliked about the original version is FUNimation's insistence on wholesale use of honorifics. It doesn't bother me all that much anymore because so many different titles are used in DB that had they tried to translate some of them and then drop the rest that it would have become very inconsistent. But when I was translating anime episodes for fansub groups, I worked around titles relatively easily and didn't get any kind of backlash from the vocal fansub viewing community, so I know firsthand that it can be done with successful results. (I don't claim to be a perfect translator but I have been studying the language for almost ten years and I'd say 90% of the material I worked on had Japanese-language scripts so I wasn't doing it by ear like earlier generations did.) So I could do without all the Gohan-chan's and Freeza-sama's being in my Dragon Box subtitles, but it's not a dealbreaker and doesn't affect my enjoyment of the series at all.

Stemming from the honorifics thing is that FUNimation has always using "Kami-sama" when talking about the good half of Daimao. They chose to take the easy road and ignore the religious aspect of the character. I think it takes a lot away from the story because the whole point of that arc was that Goku was allowed to meet God, was trained by God to defeat the DB story's equivalent of Satan (Daimao), and then was offered the opportunity to become God after defeating Daimao and winning the tournament. Maybe it's ignorance on my part but I doubt many people knew that "Kami-sama" means God in Japanese without prior study of the language or independent research after the fact. When I watched the blue bricks, I knew they wouldn't dare put "God" in their subtitle scripts but it still bothered me nonetheless.

So I guess most of my beefs with the original version are on the way FUNimation handled translating it and not the content, quality or production of the show itself.

[penguintruth]

I know somebody's bound to retort me saying something like: "Gokū's still a naïve child at heart, and his voice reflects that". Personally, I really don't buy that. Why? Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age. I know there are some exceptions, but this the general rule. A fourty year-old, muscular man with a high-pitched voice, doesn't go down well with me. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

But Goku isn't just "a forty year old musclar man". He's Goku. The entire point of Goku is personality trumping physicality.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I know somebody's bound to retort me saying something like: "Gokū's still a naïve child at heart, and his voice reflects that". Personally, I really don't buy that. Why? Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age. I know there are some exceptions, but this the general rule. A fourty year-old, muscular man with a high-pitched voice, doesn't go down well with me. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't.

But Goku isn't just "a forty year old musclar man". He's Goku. The entire point of Goku is personality trumping physicality.

I didn't say make his personality similar to that of a forty year man, just his voice. Just because he acts like a kid, doesn't mean he has to sound like one.

[obiwan23s]

Nozawa handles adult Goku differently enough to where there's a clear distinction between her child and adult Goku voices. It doesn't sound wrong or out of place to me and has never been an obstacle in the way of my enjoyment of the Z series. This may not be the case with every person who takes issue with Goku's Japanese voice for the Z portion of the anime, but I have to wonder how many people hating on his voice have formed that opinion after being introduced to the dub first, because I can see how hearing Schemmel or any of Goku's previous English voices first would form an opinion in one's mind that his Japanese voice should sound similar.

[Adamant]

Stemming from the honorifics thing is that FUNimation has always using "Kami-sama" when talking about the good half of Daimao. They chose to take the easy road and ignore the religious aspect of the character. I think it takes a lot away from the story because the whole point of that arc was that Goku was allowed to meet God, was trained by God to defeat the DB story's equivalent of Satan (Daimao), and then was offered the opportunity to become God after defeating Daimao and winning the tournament. Maybe it's ignorance on my part but I doubt many people knew that "Kami-sama" means God in Japanese without prior study of the language or independent research after the fact. When I watched the blue bricks, I knew they wouldn't dare put "God" in their subtitle scripts but it still bothered me nonetheless.

So I guess most of my beefs with the original version are on the way FUNimation handled translating it and not the content, quality or production of the show itself.

This always bugged me too, but it's not really a "problem with the original version", what the OP asked for, but rather a problem with one company's subtitles for the original version.

Same with the music, for that matter - it's not unique to any specific "versions", it's just part of the show.

[obiwan23s]

This always bugged me too, but it's not really a "problem with the original version", what the OP asked for, but rather a problem with one company's subtitles for the original version.

True, but I bet non-Japanese speakers consider the translation part of the original version too, else they wouldn't be able to understand it. Well, not without having a translated version of the manga in front of them as well. The curse of learning Japanese is that some words are open to interpretation or have multiple situational meanings, and if you get to the point where you're able to make that distinction on the fly, you'll always be judging someone else's translation as you listen and read along. I humored myself with watching Dragon Box 1 with the subtitles off for about 20 episodes and it was a fun little chore, but ultimately I'd still rather read Steve's translations and make my own mental tweaks. But the Kami-sama thing really kills me, especially when great dialog like "So I guess God can tell a lie too?" gets lost by FUNimation trying to be PC.

[TripleRach]

Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age.

And Nozawa's Gokuu voice does get deeper as he ages.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age.

And Nozawa's Gokuu voice does get deeper as he ages.

But not to the extent of a normal person.

[The Time Traveller]

Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age.

And Nozawa's Gokuu voice does get deeper as he ages.

But not to the extent of a normal person.

Goku sounds like a 5 year old when he's 12-15, he sounds slightly older as an adult.

I guess we should learn to take the criticism, when he's serious he sounds like a guy, when he yells he sounds weird and high pitched, and when he's excited he sounds more like a kid. That's just how it is with guys, I know men around age 24 who have higher voices than Goku. Though when he's in pain, it is rather obvious who's playing him...

Don't Nelson, Jimbo and the other bullies in The Simpsons sound like guys despite all of them being played by older women? They sound cartoony but that's because it's a cartoon, same for Dragon Ball.

You can dislike Goku's adult voice but it's just kinda strange to do so, people don't sound what they look like anyway.

Sorry if I'm being defensive, this thread is about our negative opinions and I can't help but fight you...

Ok, one more thing I hate about the show, when characters are in a hurry so they stand around looking serious instead of getting on with it, or when a character does something amazing and everyone within a 1 mile radius has to narrate what just happened. And when characters go from warming up to... getting ready.... then stretching their legs... then finally they toy with each other (I got to this on DBoxZ 3 last night!) then they fight. Dragon Ball has none of this I think, but DBZ is chock a block full of it.

There's things I find corny about the series, but I love corny, like when they speak Engrish.

[penguintruth]

normal person.

This is where your thinking goes wrong.

He's not a normal person. He's Son Goku. And nobody sells that better than Masako Nozawa.

Also, her voice for him progresses over time. His voice in DBZ isn't the same as it was in DB.

[Cipher]

I don't like arguing about Nozawa's Goku, but I'll chime in just once with my own anecdote.

Over the last year, I've introduced several people (friends, family members, girlfriend) to the Japanese version of the series. Every single one of them, upon hearing Goku's adult voice or being told that he kept the same female actor throughout all three series, thought it was a really bizarre choice. Even my girlfriend, who loves his voice in Dragon Ball.

That said, I told them it was a bit of a Japanese trope and they adjusted pretty quickly. So ... I don't really know what the conclusion is. Draw your own.

[penguintruth]

Even I didn't like Nozawa's voice for him as adult Goku at first, myself. But once I adjusted to it, I realized how much more appropriate it was than any of the English voice actors for him. Now I can't imagine Goku without her.

[Gaffer Tape]

Don't worry, Piccolo Daimaoh. I may argue with you from time to time, but I'd never flam you, whatever that means.

And I'm not going to use the same argument. I don't care much about "personality trumping physicality" even though I do agree with it. Hell, I think Nozawa is awesome as teenaged Gohan. But, yeah, Goku's not a "normal person." He's a cartoon character played by an actor. It's not real, so it doesn't necessarily have to follow the rules of the real world. I've seen plenty of plays where adults play children, the same actor plays a character in various stages of life, and I've seen movies that do the same thing. You just roll with the consistent performance because any time you change an actor, you're going to have an inconsistent take. So you just accept that it's impressionistic, not necessarily realism. And I happen to love it. As I've said before, it's a trade off. Unless they had gotten an actual little boy to play Goku and have him age into the adult role (which would have been impossible in this scenario), you're either going to have to disrupt continuity by changing performers or accept the age/gender discrepancy. Personally, I like the consistency of having the same actress lead the cast for the entire series. But I don't think you're wrong for not liking her. There are a few occasions where her performance gets on my nerves too. I just think this line of reasoning is a bit flawed. You're bringing actual human biology a bit too much into a fictional portrayal because I could just as easily bring "realism" into this and state with a fair amount of certainty that vocal cords that sound like Stephanie Nadolny are never going to develop into something sounding like Sean Schemmel.

Now as for something more on-topic to this thread, I have to say what others have said that the sound quality is pretty damned bad. I never have understood why it's so poorly mixed. At a time when American cartoons were increasingly having "In Stereo Where Available" signs pop up in their opening titles, it seems odd. Even if not stereo, monaural doesn't have to sound that bad. This is Japan we're talking about. "All the best stuff is made in Japan!" You'd think they could get a decent mix out of that. But there is a charm to it. I disagree with TonytheTiger that the music itself makes it sound like a kung-fu B-movie. I think Kikuchi's score is downright epic and sounds amazing when properly mixed. It's the poor sound quality that makes it sound like a B-movie. Like I said I don't always mind because you get used to it, and it does lend a certain charm, but for Japan in the '80s, it just comes across as head-scratching. Does anyone know if all Japanese shows from the '80s and '90s sounded like crap? Just animation? Just Toei shows? Or just Dragon Ball?

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

To me, Nozawa is just Gokou, because I got used to it over time with the series. But yeah, it's definitely odd to Americans who are just not used to that sort of practice. It's a bit more believable when it comes to teenage boys (Naruto, Edward Elric in Japanese, etc), but Gokou ages consistently throughout the series until he's pushing 50, with more and more insane muscles as time marches on, and he still has the same voice. It was years after I started watching DBZ in Japanese that I saw the original series in Japanese as well (I had read some of the Manga and seen FUNi's dub, but fansubs of DB weren't exactly in high demand back in the day, and it wasn't until I bought a cheap used Piccolo Daimaoh DVD at Newbury Comics that I was first exposed), so I didn't have a chance to adjust to him growing up from a child with the same voice. With Gohan, it felt more natural in that way. But Gokou? It took me a bit to adjust.

I would personally say that for an American audience and American expectations...the best possible Gokou that ever was and ever shall be...is Ian Corlett. Imagining his portrayal with better direction and a more accurate script, ala FUNi's Kai dub...man. That would be, to me, as perfect as hearing the Freeza recast in action. Some of you may know I'm, uh, noooot exactly a fan of Mr. Schemmel's, and his Gokou is still far too 'Superman' IMO, even with his vast improvements in Kai. It's just not Gokou. Can I understand how many fans prefer his performance, being an actual adult man, to Nozawa's? Certainly. Most of us love Nozawa because we listened to her performance throughout the series and it was satisfying. But to say it's the best casting decision might be stretching it depending who you ask. I can't exactly imagine anyone else portraying Gokou in Japanese, but if I had to pick the universal any-language ideal Gokou, the type of voice I can hear speaking the same language I'd be reading translated Manga in, I'd have to go with Corlett.

...anyways, um, topic...yeah, I agree with what some people have said already. This topic should have a more specific or broad title, because most things in the original version are the same across almost every language dub of the series (the animation, the music, etc). The question should either be 'negative opinions of the Japanese cast', or 'problems with the original series' or some such. So I'm not sure I have any particular response at the moment; I'd have to stop and think a bit on which aspect of the question I want to answer.

[Kendamu]

Because regardless of how mature or immature someone is, their voice gets deeper as they age.

And Nozawa's Gokuu voice does get deeper as he ages.

But not to the extent of a normal person.

Normal people don't have tails, ride clouds, fire ki beams, or use mythological polearms to take down tyrants, armies, monsters, and... fish!

Really, look at Dragonball. Tell me how you can look at that and expect normal things out of it?

You may not buy Goku's voice, but the iconic nature of the voice and the character in Japanese entertainment far outweighs any sort need for realism.

While you're at it, you might wanna compare Kuririn's voice and start complaining about how that's a relatively-unchanged voice done by a woman as well.

[penguintruth]

I thought of something wrong with the Japanese version.

Spoiler titles and spoiler previews. I guess most of the folks watching when it first ran in Japan probably also read the manga, but not everyone.

Oh, character X is going to die in the next episode? THANKS A LOT.

[Gaffer Tape]

Haha, I was just thinking that last night. While there are some that aren't so bad and actually increase one's desire to see the next episode (like catching a glimpse of Goku as a Super Saiya-jin), some just seem like whoever wrote the previews didn't work with whoever wrote the script for the episode. Like in this example I just saw on my new DBox last night (paraphrasing):

Narrator: What is the secret to Number 20? Is there more to him than meets the eye?
NEP Goku literally five second later: Number 20 is Doctor Gero?!

Not that everyone hadn't figured it out by that point, but I still LOL'd. Why build up suspense like that in the closing narration if you're just going to immediately tear it down in the preview?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Listen guys, I really don't want to turn this into a "Masako Nozawa's Adult Gokū" thread. I knew people were going to react the way they did, but this thread was asking what our personal problems with the original version are, and I think I answered that question as truthfully as I could. I know Dragon Ball (no, I'm not going to italicize it) is set in a fantasy world, but that doesn't mean the characters can't sound age appropriate. So many other Anime have more ridiculous plots than Dragon Ball, but the characters there still sound all natural.

Don't worry, Piccolo Daimaoh. I may argue with you from time to time, but I'd never flam you, whatever that means.

That was a typo. See, I meant fan me. As in, cool me down. I'm feeling a bit hot.

While you're at it, you might wanna compare Kuririn's voice and start complaining about how that's a relatively-unchanged voice done by a woman as well.

As I said in my first post, I was only going to focus on Adult Gokū's voice because that was my main problem with the original verision. Adult Krillin's voice is also a problem for me, but it doesn't rank as high.


Plus, Adult Krillin's charging-up scream doesn't make me want to rip out every single vital organ in my body.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

From my understanding Akira had a lot to do with the casting for the series, he practically hand picked all the major characters course I could be wrong. I just know for a fact he picked Masako for Son Goku.

I have no problem with the original other than some of the boring filler, why the heck did we need an entire arc for Garlic Jr.?..

I will say that the Kikuchi score is fantastic but some scenes it does make it quite boring, faulconers score was even worse(why didn't they do a straight out classical upbeat?) I actually prefer allot of the GT score over some of the Kikuchi tracks, I dunno but that's really just my opinion.

The original dub(both ends) were very very bad imo..not even worth mentioning.