Sub Fans: What's Wrong with Your Version?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Schemmel, especially in the old DBZ dub, had very poor acting skills. Nozawa is a veteran. Yeah, Schemmel's Goku is sooo much more believable...

(And what is "age appropriate"? Two people of the same age can sound totally different.)

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Schemmel, especially in the old DBZ dub, had very poor acting skills.

He has improved drastically since then.

Nozawa is a veteran. Yeah, Schemmel's Goku is sooo much more believable.

Just because Nozawa has been voice acting longer, doesn't mean that she's automatically better as Adult Gokū. Furthermore, I have never once said that Nozawa is a bad actor. She's a great actor. I just don't like her as Adult Gokū.

(And what is "age appropriate"? Two people of the same age can sound totally different.)

It's exactly what you think it means; a thing or activity that is appropriate for a certain age group.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

He has improved drastically since then.

Still just sounds like a dude in a booth to me (i.e. I don't buy his delivery), but, to each his own...

I just don't like her as Adult Gokū.

And you're free to not like her, but I don't think everybody quite understands why. Your argument is basically the same as the "FUCK THAT JAP GOKU SOUNDS LIKE A WOMAN HE'S GAY" crap on YouTube.

(And what is "age appropriate"? Two people of the same age can sound totally different.)

It's exactly what you think it means; a thing or activity that is appropriate for a certain age group.

You missed my point. There is no such thing as an "age appropriate voice." Everybody sounds different!

(If you want to do the in-universe thing, there's also the fact that Goku's an alien who retains his youth far longer than an Earthling. He looks 20 when he's 50 years old. I haven't seen you properly counter these points yet.)

2,000th post!

[Rocketman]

And you're free to not like her, but I don't think everybody quite understands why. Your argument is basically the same as the "FUCK THAT JAP GOKU SOUNDS LIKE A WOMAN HE'S GAY" crap on YouTube.

It's not that he sounds like a woman. It's that his voice is horribly grating and irritating and any time he screams I want to rip my ears off, which is why I played all of Attack of the Saiyans with the sound muted.

(If you want to do the in-universe thing, there's also the fact that Goku's an alien who retains his youth far longer than an Earthling. He looks 20 when he's 50 years old. I haven't seen you properly counter these points yet.)

Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Still just sounds like a dude in a booth to me (i.e. I don't buy his delivery), but, to each his own...

You don't like Schemmel, I don't like Nozawa. They're our opinions, and they're not right or wrong.

And you're free to not like her, but I don't think everybody quite understands why.

I think I've made my argument pretty clear on this thread.

Your argument is basically the same as the "FUCK THAT JAP GOKU SOUNDS LIKE A WOMAN HE'S GAY" crap on YouTube.

That's a very dismissive attitude to have. I, unlike some people on YouTube, am putting forth logical and factual arguments to support my opinion, and am not just spouting out closed-minded bullshit. It's really unfair to stick me together with idiots who say stuff like that.

You missed my point. There is no such thing as an "age appropriate voice." Everybody sounds different!

It's a generalization. Nothing applies to every single last person. In this case, there are a few exceptions (like the late Michael Jackson). But these are few and far between.

(If you want to do the in-universe thing, there's also the fact that Goku's an alien who retains his youth far longer than an Earthling. He looks 20 when he's 50 years old. I haven't seen you properly counter these points yet.)

That only applies to Saiyans' youth. There has been no confirmation from Akira Toriyama or the guidebooks, on how his affects their vocal chords. Heck, we don't even know if Saiyans actually go through puberty.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It's not that he sounds like a woman. It's that his voice is horribly grating and irritating and any time he screams I want to rip my ears off, which is why I played all of Attack of the Saiyans with the sound muted.

Sounds like excuses to me. That doesn't really sound like a natural reaction to Masako Nozawa's voice; otherwise, little kids in Japan would hate Goku! It seems like one big, xenophobic, Nozawa-hating bandwagon, to me.

Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta?

Did you ever watch the Japanese version of the Burdock TV special? Vegeta's voice was already deeper than Goku's when he was five.

@Piccolo Daimaoh: I'm going to sleep, I'll give you a reply tomorrow.

[Greenman]

It's not that he sounds like a woman. It's that his voice is horribly grating and irritating and any time he screams I want to rip my ears off, which is why I played all of Attack of the Saiyans with the sound muted.

Sounds like excuses to me. That doesn't really sound like a natural reaction to Masako Nozawa's voice; otherwise, little kids in Japan would hate Goku! It seems like one big, xenophobic, Nozawa-hating bandwagon, to me.

Xenophobic? How do you figure?

[penguintruth]

Batman's different to a lot of people aswell. He's a crime fighting genius who has a giant mansion and frickin' secret lair.

Is missing the point your hobby, or what? Batman isn't a representation of the pure-hearted manchild, now is he?

Also, Schemmel has not improved dramatically. He's gone from intolerable to slightly tolerable. He doesn't capture any of Goku's charm. Nozawa brings the character completely to life. I don't even see how anyone can like the character with Schemmel's voice. He makes the character seem so bland and unlikeable.

[The Time Traveller]

Batman isn't a representation of the pure-hearted manchild, now is he?

David Mazzucchelli, the artist of Batman: Year One says otherwise at the end of the deluxe edition of that certain book.

[penguintruth]

Batman isn't a representation of the pure-hearted manchild, now is he?

David Mazzucchelli, the artist of Batman: Year One says otherwise at the end of the deluxe edition of that certain book.

Oddly enough, I was just reading that. Just a couple of hours ago. Creepy. But he's an artist, not a writer. And I don't see anything implying that he thinks Batman is anything like I would describe Goku.

Frank Miller knows better what Batman is. Or, at least, he used to, before he went crazy.

I'll go with Denny O'Neil, instead.

[Kaboom]

Goku's voice is fitting for his character. Whether you like it or not is up to you, but there is a legitimate reason for it. Now let's try to keep the nastiness suppressed, so I don't have to lock a "sub vs dub" thread for the kajillionth time.

[Thanos]

I dunno, maybe it's just me, but I really see no shortcomings with regard to the Japanese version.

Adult Goku's voice is flawless and fits him perfectly. You should try watching Dragon Ball from beginning to end, and see the slow, gradual growth of Goku. It wouldn't have made sense to one day change his voice actor... he wouldn't be the same character. No one can really duplicate all the nuances in Nozawa's voice and manner of speech.

The animation, while poor at times, was necessary, and did the job. It was done due to the vast number of episodes... throughout the series, several different animation studios were used to animate the episodes... this was done for speed reasons. If they had used one studio, it would've taken much longer to produce each episode.

The filler, while often annoying, was also necessary. Even if you don't think so, nothing is stopping you from skipping the filler episodes, ya know?


The DBKai dub is the first dub of FUNimation's that I respect and take seriously. Their original interpretation (completely overhauled script, Faulconer music, poor translations and voices) was just an absolute joke to me. The leftover aspects used in DBKai from the old dub are the only problems. I would've preferred a new voice for Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, Cell (seriously? I can't believe they're still using altered voices for each form like Freeza, it's unnecessary additions like this that break video games, with the inconsistent voices). They could've at least had Schemmel do a higher voice for Goku (or hired Terry Klassan again), had Sabat stop with that ridiculous hoarse Vegeta voice, and Kuririn is too hoarse as well.

The music... oh, the music. Words cannot describe how much I hate the Faulconer music. Not only does it compromise the legitimacy of the series (it makes it into a pseudo-kiddie show... "YEAH! Electric guitars! So cool and mature!"), but it completely changes the mood. I also hate it because it has brainwashed people into thinking the original is lame, and that's just not right.

Now, about the script. It seems much more cartoony and childish. The original doesn't make any effort to use the most elaborate words and most flawless sentence structure with characters.

"Gohan and I are going to train in the Room of Spirit & Time, and subsequently, Vegeta and Trunks will follow afterward." vs. "Eh, me 'n Gohan are gonna train for a while in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber... Vegeta 'n Trunks, you wanna do it after us?"

The original wasn't afraid to have irreverence in dialogue. The Kai dub has definitely improved in most of these regards, but some of the voices can't help but remind the viewer of the shitty dub many kids grew up watching.

I remember seeing the Japanese version after seeing the old Ocean dub (yes, I saw the dub first), and realized how different it was and maybe I should watch it instead, instead of saying, "OH THIS IS DUMB GOKU SOUNDS LIKE A GIRL LOL!" I decided that with Goku's voice being as different as it is in the Japanese version, I felt as though I was missing something and wasn't fully grasping what was originally intended to be interpreted from this character. That's why I always hate when dubbers make their own decisions about the voices instead of making some kind of effort to duplicate the original actors...it truly takes away from the character makes them artificial. It, to me, is like watching a watered-down shell of the original. Fuck that.

[TonyTheTiger]

Goku's voice is fitting for his character.

But only so much as that's what we were given and therefore have become accustomed to it. It's circular in that we will say "Nozawa is fitting for Goku" and the reason, subconsciously or not, is pretty much because that's the voice we identify him with. So of course it's fitting. How could it not be since that's his voice?

That's the thing about voices and why I think it's pretty arbitrary. We're going to like what we're used to hearing because...well...that's what we identify with. If Goku had been given a different voice way back when we'd be saying that voice is fitting for his character. And so on and so forth. By no means am I saying Nozawa is bad. Quite the opposite, in fact. What I am saying is that let's not pretend we're being objective here. In fact, we're probably being pretty much as biased as we could possibly be. We're pretty much hypnotized by what we've been given. You can't really logic your way to what voice is most fitting 20+ years after the fact.

Imagine a world in which we were seeing a picture of Goku for the very first time, adult or otherwise. And then somebody asked each and every one of us what voice would be the best for this new character and gave us 20 different voice samples, one of which was Nozawa. While the majority of us might gravitate toward Nozawa under our current conditions, under these purely objective conditions the distribution of votes might look very different.

How can we really argue over voices like this when we're carrying so much goddamn baggage?

[Kaboom]

Goku's voice is fitting for his character.

But only so much as that's what we were given and therefore have become accustomed to it.

Agreed. However, I wasn't so much saying, "that's the ONLY way Goku could/should sound," so much as, "there's nothing wrong with him sounding that way."

[TonyTheTiger]

Goku's voice is fitting for his character.

But only so much as that's what we were given and therefore have become accustomed to it.

Agreed. However, I wasn't so much saying, "that's the ONLY way Goku could/should sound," so much as, "there's nothing wrong with him sounding that way."

True. But, again, I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that we were introduced to him as a kid. Picture yourself as a casting director. It's 1989 and your main character has just grown up. You had been using a female voice actress all this time because casting a woman in the role of a young boy is standard practice. But, hey, she's been doing the job for this long so why not see if she can hold her own despite this change? So you stick with her.

Now imagine it's 1989 and there was no Dragon Ball. It started with Goku as an adult. You're the casting director. Do you cast Nozawa?

So even if there's nothing wrong with Nozawa voicing adult Goku, she's probably only doing it because she had already been playing him as a boy for a number of years. That little detail is probably very, very important. You could say the exact same thing about Krillin. Yet why is Yamcha not played by a woman? Probably because when we first met him he was already an adult. Had we been first introduced to him as a kid we'd probably be used to a female actress playing Yamcha all through DBZ and we'd currently be saying that is appropriate. Yet right now, if you took a poll, I'd venture a guess most of us might say that there's no way Yamcha should be voiced by a woman because that wouldn't be appropriate.

I know I'm probably not being completely fair but I guess this hits kind of close to home for me because I've had to get over voice actor changes myself after becoming so accustomed to a character sounding a certain way. I believe that Cam Clarke is the only "real" Leonardo, for instance, even though I know deep down I'm just blinded by what came first. I ask myself why the change bothers me so much even when the new actor is just as good, if not better. The way I've come to handle it is pretty much to just let go and try to accept anything that gets thrown at me without comparing it to anything else.

It's why I don't have any particular hatred for any of the English voice cast and actually like many of them. Because when I'm watching a dub (or anything for that matter) I pretty much put the voice talent from any other version out of mind.

I'm not saying I'm always good at doing it, either. I just try. Do you have any idea how long it took me to get used to George Newbern as Superman when he took over for Tim Daly?

[B]

The animation, while poor at times, was necessary, and did the job. It was done due to the vast number of episodes... throughout the series, several different animation studios were used to animate the episodes... this was done for speed reasons. If they had used one studio, it would've taken much longer to produce each episode.

Well, there's more than one way to adapt something. Doing a weekly show that's running alongside a weekly comic is obviously going to catch up, but they ended up doing it anyway because at the end of the day, they'll make more money from kids tuning in every week and jacking up the ratings, as opposed to something like a movie adaptation or a series of OVAs, which would most likely look a lot better than DB/Z/GT do and tell the story more succintly, but would also rely solely on movie ticket and home release sales.

The filler, while often annoying, was also necessary. Even if you don't think so, nothing is stopping you from skipping the filler episodes, ya know?

Most of the filler in DBZ is not "filler episodes," though. It's padding and fluff tossed into the canon manga material. I wish it was that easy to just skip things; I'd be less critical of the show for it. But as it stands, the filler is interspersed all over the place.

[OutlawTorn]

Well, a guy's voice does usually naturally change as they get older, but Goku is a cartoon character. An alien cartoon character that doesn't look a day over 18 when he's 50.

There's definitely no question that he's a cartoon character, but all of the arguments used to support the preference of Nozawa's voice are real world people, though to be fair Michael Jackson and Mike Tyson are (or were, in Jackson's case) cartoonish to an extent.

I, personally, do not particularly care if the person who voices as male cartoon character happens to be a female as, more often than not, women do voice boys. What I disagree with, however, is that the original version is always the best. I've seen people argue that Toriyama has said Nozawa is the perfect Goku but they have also said they wouldn't care if Toriyama put his stamp of approval on the FUNimation dub as it would not change their own opinions, so why the "Toriyama card" when it supports an opinion? This isn't directed at you, of course, just a general observation.

For a non-Dragon Ball example, when the producers were casting voices for the live action Transformers movie, Hugo Weaving was chosen to voice Megatron over Frank Welker, the original Megatron predating the movie more than twenty years, yet Peter Cullen was chosen to reprise Optimus Prime. Of course, this is because Megatron had a raspy "cartoony" voice (well, he was a cartoon character, after all) which didn't age well over the succeeding two decades since the original cartoon.

No, back to Dragon Ball and a comparable example. The Japanese dub of Dragonball Evolution features Kappei Yamaguchi as the voice of Goku, not Masako Nozawa. Even though the movie is hated (much like the Bayformers franchise), it demonstrates that even in Japan Nozawa isn't the only possible choice for Goku, just like Schemmel isn't the only possible English voice for Goku.

Finally, YouTube comments are the absolute worst examples to pull from as I seriously question the mental faculties of most of the people who use YouTube, especially as their complete butchery of English makes it even more difficult to take their comments seriously.

Sounds like excuses to me. That doesn't really sound like a natural reaction to Masako Nozawa's voice; otherwise, little kids in Japan would hate Goku! It seems like one big, xenophobic, Nozawa-hating bandwagon, to me.

Whether people like or hate Masako Nozawa's voice, I think any of the reactions are perfectly natural. Just because some people find her voice grating doesn't mean Japanese kids will and they could hate something which is popular with native English speakers. It's only a "Nozawa-hating bandwagon" if people decide to hate Nozawa because others happen to. I'm sure people don't actually hate Nozawa herself.

[Perfect]

Schemmel tends to talk like Goku when having a casual conversation, from what I can tell from the anime conventions on Youtube or whatever. He also regarded Goku's voice as being pretty easy to do and not shifting his voice that much.
So I'm not sure what anyone here means by his voice being all that different than a normal person since you know, Schemmel is a normal person.

[Puto]

The Japanese dub of Dragonball Evolution features Kappei Yamaguchi as the voice of Goku

And *that* is why I want to watch it. Kappei Yamaguchi is *awesome*.

[Gaffer Tape]

The animation, while poor at times, was necessary, and did the job. It was done due to the vast number of episodes... throughout the series, several different animation studios were used to animate the episodes... this was done for speed reasons. If they had used one studio, it would've taken much longer to produce each episode.

Well, there's more than one way to adapt something. Doing a weekly show that's running alongside a weekly comic is obviously going to catch up, but they ended up doing it anyway because at the end of the day, they'll make more money from kids tuning in every week and jacking up the ratings, as opposed to something like a movie adaptation or a series of OVAs, which would most likely look a lot better than DB/Z/GT do and tell the story more succintly, but would also rely solely on movie ticket and home release sales.

Possibly, but considering the overall length of the Dragon Ball material, it seems to me it would be prohibitively expensive to do the whole thing as movies or a string of OVAs. Not to mention it's not exactly the type of material you'd want to wait that long in between viewings. Overall, I think a weekly serial television format was the best for it.