End of Planet Vegeta....

[MyVisionity]

That particular style, taking the characters and creating a story with them that's not part of the story flow, is called Alternate Universe. By defination it's taking place in a universe similar to, but not identicle to, the one we are familiar with. So, yes, it is a different universe.

This isn't fanfiction we're talking about, these are anime features. The movies are set in the same universe as the tv series, but some elements in the plots may not match up with the show's storyline at the time. But it doesn't really matter if things don't fit or some elements of the show are ignored, because the movies are built for entertainment and to see familiar characters in new and original stories.

Where do you think Fanfics got the idea of AUs from? It doesn't matter that it's not a fanfic. Any story that does not fit into the primary story-line, and there for not into the story's universe, is an AU story.

Just because it doesn't fit into the show's storyline doesn't mean it takes place in another universe. I think the movies naturally expected the viewers to assume the plots were set in the same familiar world of the tv show.

[Rocketman]

Just because it doesn't fit into the show's storyline doesn't mean it takes place in another universe. I think the movies naturally expected the viewers to assume the plots were set in the same familiar world of the tv show.

Maybe when they were made, but they don't fit now.

Take, for example, the book 1984, written in 1948. When it was written, it was entirely possible that it could be the future, and it was meant for the reader to assume it was.

However, as time passed, certain events didn't happen or were contrary to the book, so now we look back and call 1984 an alternate history book.


Bringing this to DBZ:

Take Movie 4, the one with Lord Slug. It was made before Goku became a Super Saiyan, but in the movie, Goku undergoes a completely different transformation that is called "Super Saiyan". Also, Piccolo and Krillin are alive and on Earth with Goku, which only happened before Raditz and after Freeza, but Goku uses the Kaioken and isn't a golden-haired SSJ.

Therefore, although it may have been intended to fit when created, the movie now contradicts the events in the DBZ universe, making it an alternate universe movie.

[MyVisionity]

Just because it doesn't fit into the show's storyline doesn't mean it takes place in another universe. I think the movies naturally expected the viewers to assume the plots were set in the same familiar world of the tv show.

Maybe when they were made, but they don't fit now.

Take, for example, the book 1984, written in 1948. When it was written, it was entirely possible that it could be the future, and it was meant for the reader to assume it was.

However, as time passed, certain events didn't happen or were contrary to the book, so now we look back and call 1984 an alternate history book.


Bringing this to DBZ:

Take Movie 4, the one with Lord Slug. It was made before Goku became a Super Saiyan, but in the movie, Goku undergoes a completely different transformation that is called "Super Saiyan". Also, Piccolo and Krillin are alive and on Earth with Goku, which only happened before Raditz and after Freeza, but Goku uses the Kaioken and isn't a golden-haired SSJ.

Therefore, although it may have been intended to fit when created, the movie now contradicts the events in the DBZ universe, making it an alternate universe movie.

I didn't say they fit with the show's storyline, I said they were set in the same universe.

So what if the movie contradicts events in the show's storyline? That doesn't mean it takes place in a different universe. The tv show has its own storyline and path to follow, but the movies are made for the purpose of stepping out of the show's story and making original stories for people to enjoy.

[Rocketman]

I didn't say they fit with the show's storyline, I said they were set in the same universe.

So what if the movie contradicts events in the show's storyline? That doesn't mean it takes place in a different universe. The tv show has its own storyline and path to follow, but the movies are made for the purpose of stepping out of the show's story and making original stories for people to enjoy.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of "alternate universe" yet as it relates to DBZ.

DBZ's storyline is its universe. Anything that contradicts the storyline cannot exist along with it.

Perhaps it would make it clearer to use the word 'timeline' instead of universe.

To use DBZ itself, there are several timelines, the two major ones being the main story and Future Trunks' world. Because Goku died in one world, but didn't in the other (from the virus, at least), the two timelines cannot exist in the same universe.

So, the movies exist in timelines where something happened differently. In Movie 6, Dende became Earth's Kami, but the Saiyans did not enter the Time Chamber. In Movie 8, Cell never showed up/was killed before the Cell Games were announced. And so on.

[Xyex]

Just because it doesn't fit into the show's storyline doesn't mean it takes place in another universe. I think the movies naturally expected the viewers to assume the plots were set in the same familiar world of the tv show.

Maybe when they were made, but they don't fit now.

Take, for example, the book 1984, written in 1948. When it was written, it was entirely possible that it could be the future, and it was meant for the reader to assume it was.

However, as time passed, certain events didn't happen or were contrary to the book, so now we look back and call 1984 an alternate history book.


Bringing this to DBZ:

Take Movie 4, the one with Lord Slug. It was made before Goku became a Super Saiyan, but in the movie, Goku undergoes a completely different transformation that is called "Super Saiyan". Also, Piccolo and Krillin are alive and on Earth with Goku, which only happened before Raditz and after Freeza, but Goku uses the Kaioken and isn't a golden-haired SSJ.

Therefore, although it may have been intended to fit when created, the movie now contradicts the events in the DBZ universe, making it an alternate universe movie.

I didn't say they fit with the show's storyline, I said they were set in the same universe.

So what if the movie contradicts events in the show's storyline? That doesn't mean it takes place in a different universe. The tv show has its own storyline and path to follow, but the movies are made for the purpose of stepping out of the show's story and making original stories for people to enjoy.

You fail to understand the defination of AU as pertaining to all stories, be they novels, movie's, shows, or random fanfics, the definition is still constant. Any story that does not fit into the flow of primary cannon and therefore can't occur in the same universe as the offical cannon is an AU. ANY story that does not fit within the primary story is an AU. That's all there is to it.

[*PINHEAD*]

The term alternate universe is somewhat strange to grasp. This is how I take it. Look at the movies Spider-Man or the new Batman (mmm...). They're set in the same setting and follow a similar story to the original comic books, but since the details differ so much, it's obvious they don't go together. Despite their similarities, they are different storylines. That's pretty much the same case with Dragon Ball and its movies, which is why some say the movies take place in a different universe.

[MyVisionity]

I didn't say they fit with the show's storyline, I said they were set in the same universe.

So what if the movie contradicts events in the show's storyline? That doesn't mean it takes place in a different universe. The tv show has its own storyline and path to follow, but the movies are made for the purpose of stepping out of the show's story and making original stories for people to enjoy.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of "alternate universe" yet as it relates to DBZ.

DBZ's storyline is its universe. Anything that contradicts the storyline cannot exist along with it.

Perhaps it would make it clearer to use the word 'timeline' instead of universe.

To use DBZ itself, there are several timelines, the two major ones being the main story and Future Trunks' world. Because Goku died in one world, but didn't in the other (from the virus, at least), the two timelines cannot exist in the same universe.

So, the movies exist in timelines where something happened differently. In Movie 6, Dende became Earth's Kami, but the Saiyans did not enter the Time Chamber. In Movie 8, Cell never showed up/was killed before the Cell Games were announced. And so on.

How is DBZ's storyline its universe? I think it's a little too critical to confine a television cartoon's universe to one main storyline. Is there even an "official storyline" to begin with? It's still a fun kid's show.

And timelines are a whole other issue. I don't think it's necessary to splice the series into separate timelines, when they were both shown within the show, and therefore both happened within Dragonball's history. Those little differences in the movies you mentioned are not really big enough to merit "alternate universes".

You fail to understand the defination of AU as pertaining to all stories, be they novels, movie's, shows, or random fanfics, the definition is still constant. Any story that does not fit into the flow of primary cannon and therefore can't occur in the same universe as the offical cannon is an AU. ANY story that does not fit within the primary story is an AU. That's all there is to it.

Again, is there really a "primary canon", and does it deserve that much integrity? I suppose by saying the movies are side stories, you could give it the title of "AU", but I can't see how someone could literally perceive them as taking place in an alternate universe.

[Xyex]

I didn't say they fit with the show's storyline, I said they were set in the same universe.

So what if the movie contradicts events in the show's storyline? That doesn't mean it takes place in a different universe. The tv show has its own storyline and path to follow, but the movies are made for the purpose of stepping out of the show's story and making original stories for people to enjoy.

You don't seem to grasp the concept of "alternate universe" yet as it relates to DBZ.

DBZ's storyline is its universe. Anything that contradicts the storyline cannot exist along with it.

Perhaps it would make it clearer to use the word 'timeline' instead of universe.

To use DBZ itself, there are several timelines, the two major ones being the main story and Future Trunks' world. Because Goku died in one world, but didn't in the other (from the virus, at least), the two timelines cannot exist in the same universe.

So, the movies exist in timelines where something happened differently. In Movie 6, Dende became Earth's Kami, but the Saiyans did not enter the Time Chamber. In Movie 8, Cell never showed up/was killed before the Cell Games were announced. And so on.

How is DBZ's storyline its universe? I think it's a little too critical to confine a television cartoon's universe to one main storyline. Is there even an "official storyline" to begin with? It's still a fun kid's show.

And timelines are a whole other issue. I don't think it's necessary to splice the series into separate timelines, when they were both shown within the show, and therefore both happened within Dragonball's history. Those little differences in the movies you mentioned are not really big enough to merit "alternate universes".

You fail to understand the defination of AU as pertaining to all stories, be they novels, movie's, shows, or random fanfics, the definition is still constant. Any story that does not fit into the flow of primary cannon and therefore can't occur in the same universe as the offical cannon is an AU. ANY story that does not fit within the primary story is an AU. That's all there is to it.

Again, is there really a "primary canon", and does it deserve that much integrity? I suppose by saying the movies are side stories, you could give it the title of "AU", but I can't see how someone could literally perceive them as taking place in an alternate universe.

Explain to me how it's possible for the movies (aside from 9 and 13) to occur within the same universe as the series (the manga is primary canon). It's not possible. Since they CAN'T fit in the story, and as far as I know there's only 1 Earth and 1 Goku and 1 everyone else, they can't be happening in the same universe as the series. It's just not possible.

Movies 9 and 13 do not contradict anything from the canon, there's no one alive when they should be dead, no one with more or less power than they should have (well, that's debatable in 13), etc. and therefor could occur within the same universe as the series.

[MyVisionity]

Explain to me how it's possible for the movies (aside from 9 and 13) to occur within the same universe as the series (the manga is primary canon). It's not possible. Since they CAN'T fit in the story, and as far as I know there's only 1 Earth and 1 Goku and 1 everyone else, they can't be happening in the same universe as the series. It's just not possible.

Movies 9 and 13 do not contradict anything from the canon, there's no one alive when they should be dead, no one with more or less power than they should have (well, that's debatable in 13), etc. and therefor could occur within the same universe as the series.

They occur within the same universe because they involve the same characters, settings, and history as the tv series. The primary storyline is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the plots of the movies. You can call them side stories, but it is still the same Goku and same Earth as written in the tv show. It doesn't matter if the movie events cannot fit chronologically with the series, because they are original stories. Sure it might not be possible in the real world, but this is a fictional cartoon show, and it doesn't have to worry about having a perfectly linear timeline. You should be able to assume the characters and world of the movies are the same as from the tv series, without having to worry about whether or not they contradict the primary storyline.

[Xyex]

Explain to me how it's possible for the movies (aside from 9 and 13) to occur within the same universe as the series (the manga is primary canon). It's not possible. Since they CAN'T fit in the story, and as far as I know there's only 1 Earth and 1 Goku and 1 everyone else, they can't be happening in the same universe as the series. It's just not possible.

Movies 9 and 13 do not contradict anything from the canon, there's no one alive when they should be dead, no one with more or less power than they should have (well, that's debatable in 13), etc. and therefor could occur within the same universe as the series.

They occur within the same universe because they involve the same characters, settings, and history as the tv series. The primary storyline is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the plots of the movies. You can call them side stories, but it is still the same Goku and same Earth as written in the tv show. It doesn't matter if the movie events cannot fit chronologically with the series, because they are original stories. Sure it might not be possible in the real world, but this is a fictional cartoon show, and it doesn't have to worry about having a perfectly linear timeline. You should be able to assume the characters and world of the movies are the same as from the tv series, without having to worry about whether or not they contradict the primary storyline.

Just because it involves the same characters does not mean it is the same universe. The fact that they defy continuity of the established events means they cannot occur in the same universe, the fact it's a fictional anime doesn't matter. Tenchi Muyo is a prime example, you can't claim each of those stories occur in the same universe. The same applies to the series and movies in DBZ.

Also, no, they don't invlove the same history. The fact all the Z fighters are alive and on Earth while Goku knows the Kaio Ken but can't go SSJ defies established history. By definition (and common sense) the movie's are Alternate Universe stories as they tell stories that cannot fit with in the same universe as the cannon.

[*PINHEAD*]

It's not that their literally in an alternate universe...the movies just could be seen in that light. It's up to the viewer to determine. Some say it's an alternate universe. To me, it's just a different take on the storyline. Again, I bring up my my Batman/Spider-Man movie example.

Of course they're the same characters, settings, basic storyline, etc. But because they contradict, it's obvious they depict different storylines.

It's not like an alternate universe like Bizarro in Superman. By alternate universe they mean a different storyline which follows the main one but branches out differently, thus, could take place in an alternate universe.



I was gonna use the Tenchi Muyo example, but I wasn't sure if I should because it's been a while since I last saw the show, and I didn't really follow it that much.

[MyVisionity]

Explain to me how it's possible for the movies (aside from 9 and 13) to occur within the same universe as the series (the manga is primary canon). It's not possible. Since they CAN'T fit in the story, and as far as I know there's only 1 Earth and 1 Goku and 1 everyone else, they can't be happening in the same universe as the series. It's just not possible.

Movies 9 and 13 do not contradict anything from the canon, there's no one alive when they should be dead, no one with more or less power than they should have (well, that's debatable in 13), etc. and therefor could occur within the same universe as the series.

They occur within the same universe because they involve the same characters, settings, and history as the tv series. The primary storyline is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with the plots of the movies. You can call them side stories, but it is still the same Goku and same Earth as written in the tv show. It doesn't matter if the movie events cannot fit chronologically with the series, because they are original stories. Sure it might not be possible in the real world, but this is a fictional cartoon show, and it doesn't have to worry about having a perfectly linear timeline. You should be able to assume the characters and world of the movies are the same as from the tv series, without having to worry about whether or not they contradict the primary storyline.

Just because it involves the same characters does not mean it is the same universe. The fact that they defy continuity of the established events means they cannot occur in the same universe, the fact it's a fictional anime doesn't matter. Tenchi Muyo is a prime example, you can't claim each of those stories occur in the same universe. The same applies to the series and movies in DBZ.

Also, no, they don't invlove the same history. The fact all the Z fighters are alive and on Earth while Goku knows the Kaio Ken but can't go SSJ defies established history. By definition (and common sense) the movie's are Alternate Universe stories as they tell stories that cannot fit with in the same universe as the cannon.

The Tenchi situation is different, because they make a point of keeping each series separate, with different titles and so forth. Plus the changes in Tenchi history from series to series are big enough to designate them as alternate universes.

Yes, the DBZ movies involve the same history as the tv series. I'm referring to long term history here. Something as recent as the Z fighters dying and Goku learning Kaio-Ken is not important enough to claim alternate universe. At the time of Movie 3's release, Goku had not gone SSJ yet in the series, so that wasn't an issue. And do you expect the Z-fighters to be dead and Goku and the others to be on Namek? Earth is their home, and it's the show's main setting, so why would an original story take place off on some planet where the main storyline's action is occuring?

[Jerseymilk]

And do you expect the Z-fighters to be dead and Goku and the others to be on Namek? Earth is their home, and it's the show's main setting, so why would an original story take place off on some planet where the main storyline's action is occuring?

Movie 8 took place on another planet and that was during a time in the series when everyone, including Goku was back on Earth.

[MyVisionity]

And do you expect the Z-fighters to be dead and Goku and the others to be on Namek? Earth is their home, and it's the show's main setting, so why would an original story take place off on some planet where the main storyline's action is occuring?

Movie 8 took place on another planet and that was during a time in the series when everyone, including Goku was back on Earth.

Yeah, that's ok, because the action in the main storyline wasn't taking place on New Vegeta. I was saying that you shouldn't expect Movie 3 to take place on Namek just because the tv series was there, and that Earth is the show's main setting. Plus they started out on Earth in movie 8, and then returned.

[Jerseymilk]

That doesn't matter. What were they doing on Earth before they left? Enjoying a Cherry Blossom festival while Goku and Chi-Chi were being interviewed trying to get Gohan into a good school. They weren't trying to track down #16, #17, and #18. Nor were they trying to track down or fight Cell. You said before that the movies' differences with the TV series are too minor to count. Well I call leaving out all the business with the Androids and a major villain, a pretty major detail.

[*PINHEAD*]

Just because it fit at one point during the series doesn't mean it occurs within the main storyline. I'll go out on a limb and use the dub as an example. Vegeta claimed that Bardock was a brilliant scientist who invented the artificial moon thing. At that point in the series, no one knew who Bardock was and that he was nothing more than some low-class Saiyan. It fit in the main storyline (at least, in the dub). But fast forward to the Freeza story arc. We learn who Bardock really was, so there's conflict. It's safe to dismiss the whole "brilliant scientist" comment as irrelevant.

How this fits into this discussion? I don't really know, but it's sort of like how one thing may have been intended to fit in the main storyline, but further continuity contradicts this.

I'll use Movie #3 as an example. It seemed logical, "Oh, okay. This must happen after they defeat the Saiyans." But then the whole Freeza saga happens. How else could have Son Goku used the Kaiou Ken and been around with Yamcha and the rest of the gang? That would mean the movie would have had to take place some time after the ordeal with Freeza, meaning Goku would've used his Super Saiyan ability in favor of the Kaiou Ken. The only way the movie would fit is in an alternate universe, one which follows the same basic story but differs on some level, or in a seperate take on the story.

The movies are just as you put them..."original stories." Original in that they don't fit in the continuity of the main storyline.

[Conan the SSJ]

Just because it fit at one point during the series doesn't mean it occurs within the main storyline. I'll go out on a limb and use the dub as an example. Vegeta claimed that Bardock was a brilliant scientist who invented the artificial moon thing. At that point in the series, no one knew who Bardock was and that he was nothing more than some low-class Saiyan. It fit in the main storyline (at least, in the dub). But fast forward to the Freeza story arc. We learn who Bardock really was, so there's conflict. It's safe to dismiss the whole "brilliant scientist" comment as irrelevant.

How this fits into this discussion? I don't really know, but it's sort of like how one thing may have been intended to fit in the main storyline, but further continuity contradicts this.

I'll use Movie #3 as an example. It seemed logical, "Oh, okay. This must happen after they defeat the Saiyans." But then the whole Freeza saga happens. How else could have Son Goku used the Kaiou Ken and been around with Yamcha and the rest of the gang? That would mean the movie would have had to take place some time after the ordeal with Freeza, meaning Goku would've used his Super Saiyan ability in favor of the Kaiou Ken. The only way the movie would fit is in an alternate universe, one which follows the same basic story but differs on some level, or in a seperate take on the story.

The movies are just as you put them..."original stories." Original in that they don't fit in the continuity of the main storyline.

Exactly.

However for people that (like myself) prefer the anime canon over the manga, I'd also have to include at the least: Movies 1 and 5 along with 9 and 13. 1 because of the obvious Garlic Jr. saga and it could easily take place over a year befoire Raditz comes to Earth. Minus Krillin's encounter with Gohan and then exagerated surprise when Goku brings Gohan to Kame House, I think it could easily take place seeing as Krillin hadn't seen the boy for a year and when he did see him, it was for a mere 15 - 20 minutes.
The first Cooler movie would have to be included, simply because it seems to tie into the Bardock special (it's major flashback scene) and the "3 years Android training" time period. If someone wants to bring up Gohan's tail, well he could of always grown it back after Goku (finally) got his drivers license, however got it removed after the movie because of the weakness it posed to Gohan (proof is when Doore first attacked Gohan). The issue with Goku holding out the SSJ transformation against Cooler, well my guess is he hadn't trained enough (as the movie likkly takes place a short time before the Androids' arrival) in the SSJ form, as seen in the brief training scenes with Piccolo and Gohan. But above all, Movie 5 MUST fit because Cooler had appeared in GT, which of course mkust be counted as anime canon.

Regaurding Movie 13's power level issue, everyone keeps forgetting that SSJ3 Goku possibly was at his 100% that he spoke of, but never used in the Kid Buu fight.

But back to the topic, 9 out of the 13 DBZ movies are obviously AU, and it's more obvious when watching the original DB movies as those were recreations with the same plot. So yeah, except for Movies 1, 5, 9, 13, and the 3 specials; EVERY DB and DBZ movie, as well as the "OVA", must be counted as non-canon and thus AU. There's no possible way Willow, Turles, Slug, the movie Androids, ect. can be counted, however the "Buu's Fury" and "Budokai 3" games cleverly found ways to fit Metal Cooler, Broly, and Janemba into the story, however those were just games.

[MyVisionity]

That doesn't matter. What were they doing on Earth before they left? Enjoying a Cherry Blossom festival while Goku and Chi-Chi were being interviewed trying to get Gohan into a good school. They weren't trying to track down #16, #17, and #18. Nor were they trying to track down or fight Cell. You said before that the movies' differences with the TV series are too minor to count. Well I call leaving out all the business with the Androids and a major villain, a pretty major detail.

Yes it would be a major detail, if the movies were following the main storyline so closely. I'm saying that when it comes to the movies, the main storyline is irrelevant. It's not important that they weren't dealing with Cell and the androids in that movie, because it has nothing to do with the plot.

And you're right it doesn't matter what was happening on Earth in that movie because of the main action taking place on the other planet, but I just wanted to point out that their natural setting is on Earth.

[Xyex]

Exactly.

However for people that (like myself) prefer the anime canon over the manga, I'd also have to include at the least: Movies 1 and 5 along with 9 and 13. 1 because of the obvious Garlic Jr. saga and it could easily take place over a year befoire Raditz comes to Earth. Minus Krillin's encounter with Gohan and then exagerated surprise when Goku brings Gohan to Kame House, I think it could easily take place seeing as Krillin hadn't seen the boy for a year and when he did see him, it was for a mere 15 - 20 minutes.

The first Cooler movie would have to be included, simply because it seems to tie into the Bardock special (it's major flashback scene) and the "3 years Android training" time period. If someone wants to bring up Gohan's tail, well he could of always grown it back after Goku (finally) got his drivers license, however got it removed after the movie because of the weakness it posed to Gohan (proof is when Doore first attacked Gohan). The issue with Goku holding out the SSJ transformation against Cooler, well my guess is he hadn't trained enough (as the movie likkly takes place a short time before the Androids' arrival) in the SSJ form, as seen in the brief training scenes with Piccolo and Gohan. But above all, Movie 5 MUST fit because Cooler had appeared in GT, which of course mkust be counted as anime canon.

Regaurding Movie 13's power level issue, everyone keeps forgetting that SSJ3 Goku possibly was at his 100% that he spoke of, but never used in the Kid Buu fight.

But back to the topic, 9 out of the 13 DBZ movies are obviously AU, and it's more obvious when watching the original DB movies as those were recreations with the same plot. So yeah, except for Movies 1, 5, 9, 13, and the 3 specials; EVERY DB and DBZ movie, as well as the "OVA", must be counted as non-canon and thus AU. There's no possible way Willow, Turles, Slug, the movie Androids, ect. can be counted, however the "Buu's Fury" and "Budokai 3" games cleverly found ways to fit Metal Cooler, Broly, and Janemba into the story, however those were just games.

................................

Movie 1 can't happen because of Gohan. It's that simple. Besides, the events Garlic Jr. refer too are NOT the events of movie one, there are time-line inconsistancies. Gohan was 4 in movie one, 7 during the saga, and 10 years had passed since Garlic Jr. was locked in the Dead Zone. The events refered to in the saga are similar too but not the events of Movie 1.

As for Cooler, er, wha? There's no cannon flashbacks (anime or otherwise) that depict ANY signs of Cooler. Zip. Beyond that, Goku had already mastered transformting into SSJ as seen during the Trunks Saga so that blows that thought right out of the water. As for Cooler in GT.... well, GT doesn't even fit the Anime cannon (Cooler is a prime example). GT is simply a long movie. It's an AU series based off the original, not a true continuation.

As for the power imbalance in movie 13. 100% power SSJ3 Goku is not, cannot, and never will be as strong as Mystic Gohan. Toei did what the fans wanted, made Goku the hero. It's a simple as that.

So ya, the only things that fit cannon are the 2 specials (meant to fit, even though the Trunks one is off from the Manga) and movies 9 and 13.

Yes it would be a major detail, if the movies were following the main storyline so closely. I'm saying that when it comes to the movies, the main storyline is irrelevant. It's not important that they weren't dealing with Cell and the androids in that movie, because it has nothing to do with the plot.

And you're right it doesn't matter what was happening on Earth in that movie because of the main action taking place on the other planet, but I just wanted to point out that their natural setting is on Earth.

You just don't get it, do you? *ehem* The fact that they CANNOT occur within the cannon storyline is the DEFINITION of AU. It doesn't matter WHAT you think. The fact stands they ARE AU. There's no way around it.

[Conan the SSJ]

Exactly.

However for people that (like myself) prefer the anime canon over the manga, I'd also have to include at the least: Movies 1 and 5 along with 9 and 13. 1 because of the obvious Garlic Jr. saga and it could easily take place over a year befoire Raditz comes to Earth. Minus Krillin's encounter with Gohan and then exagerated surprise when Goku brings Gohan to Kame House, I think it could easily take place seeing as Krillin hadn't seen the boy for a year and when he did see him, it was for a mere 15 - 20 minutes.

The first Cooler movie would have to be included, simply because it seems to tie into the Bardock special (it's major flashback scene) and the "3 years Android training" time period. If someone wants to bring up Gohan's tail, well he could of always grown it back after Goku (finally) got his drivers license, however got it removed after the movie because of the weakness it posed to Gohan (proof is when Doore first attacked Gohan). The issue with Goku holding out the SSJ transformation against Cooler, well my guess is he hadn't trained enough (as the movie likkly takes place a short time before the Androids' arrival) in the SSJ form, as seen in the brief training scenes with Piccolo and Gohan. But above all, Movie 5 MUST fit because Cooler had appeared in GT, which of course mkust be counted as anime canon.

Regaurding Movie 13's power level issue, everyone keeps forgetting that SSJ3 Goku possibly was at his 100% that he spoke of, but never used in the Kid Buu fight.

But back to the topic, 9 out of the 13 DBZ movies are obviously AU, and it's more obvious when watching the original DB movies as those were recreations with the same plot. So yeah, except for Movies 1, 5, 9, 13, and the 3 specials; EVERY DB and DBZ movie, as well as the "OVA", must be counted as non-canon and thus AU. There's no possible way Willow, Turles, Slug, the movie Androids, ect. can be counted, however the "Buu's Fury" and "Budokai 3" games cleverly found ways to fit Metal Cooler, Broly, and Janemba into the story, however those were just games.

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Movie 1 can't happen because of Gohan. It's that simple. Besides, the events Garlic Jr. refer too are NOT the events of movie one, there are time-line inconsistancies. Gohan was 4 in movie one, 7 during the saga, and 10 years had passed since Garlic Jr. was locked in the Dead Zone. The events refered to in the saga are similar too but not the events of Movie 1.

As for Cooler, er, wha? There's no cannon flashbacks (anime or otherwise) that depict ANY signs of Cooler. Zip. Beyond that, Goku had already mastered transformting into SSJ as seen during the Trunks Saga so that blows that thought right out of the water. As for Cooler in GT.... well, GT doesn't even fit the Anime cannon (Cooler is a prime example). GT is simply a long movie. It's an AU series based off the original, not a true continuation.

As for the power imbalance in movie 13. 100% power SSJ3 Goku is not, cannot, and never will be as strong as Mystic Gohan. Toei did what the fans wanted, made Goku the hero. It's a simple as that.

So ya, the only things that fit cannon are the 2 specials (meant to fit, even though the Trunks one is off from the Manga) and movies 9 and 13.

Yes it would be a major detail, if the movies were following the main storyline so closely. I'm saying that when it comes to the movies, the main storyline is irrelevant. It's not important that they weren't dealing with Cell and the androids in that movie, because it has nothing to do with the plot.

And you're right it doesn't matter what was happening on Earth in that movie because of the main action taking place on the other planet, but I just wanted to point out that their natural setting is on Earth.

You just don't get it, do you? *ehem* The fact that they CANNOT occur within the cannon storyline is the DEFINITION of AU. It doesn't matter WHAT you think. The fact stands they ARE AU. There's no way around it.

Okay, I see a few things wrong with your opinon. The Garlic Jr. saga didn't happen 10 years after Movie 1, that was a dub change in it's first episode, it in FACT happened 10 months after the defeat of Freeza;

From the Japanese version: {Narrator:} It's only been ten months since the vigorous battle with Freeza.
Another crisis comes.

So there ya go, the Garlic Jr. saga can happen, but your only going by the dub, also the Dead Zone is probably like the Room of Spirit and Time, it probably has a longer time span in it due to it being a different realm. Also, is it ever stated that Mystic Gohan would still be stronger than 100% SSJ3 Goku? I don't think it was, please show me if it was stated in any Daizenshuu, Goku proved in movie 13 that the 100% is stronger than Mystic Gohan. Concerning GT, why couldn't it be considered anime canon? Toriyama did character designs for the first half of the series, and the ending to the series was much better than Z's in which Toriyama left it at a tad of a cliffhanger, whilst GT left it at the viewers' own interprutation; did Goku live through the ordeal with Shenron, was that truly him, a ghost maybe? Some people didn't like the idea of Toei leaving the viewers to interprut, I personaly loved the aspect. The last GT episode was truly IMO, the BEST episode ever of the trilogy and I dare anyone of you to watch the Japanese version of it and try to tell me any different.