Trunks vs Cooler

[Savage68]

I doubt that any Super Saiyan is inferior to Freeza.

[Kaboom]

Future Gohan is weaker than 100% organic Freeza, and that's pretty damn weak.

...Says who?

The only Super Saiyan in the whole series who's even plausibly that weak is young 12-year-old Future Trunks, since we see him sparring as a Super Saiyan against base Gohan.

[Nazi Cola]

Future Gohan is weaker than 100% organic Freeza, and that's pretty damn weak.

...Says who?

The only Super Saiyan in the whole series who's even plausibly that weak is young 12-year-old Future Trunks, since we see him sparring as a Super Saiyan against base Gohan.

I guess it's just my opinion, based on the events of the future and what Gohan says about his dad and stuff.

[Savage68]

Gohan said that he made Gi resembling Goku's because he wanted to be "...strong, like Father was." I don't think it's meant to be taken very literally, like, "I want to be as strong as Father was."

[Nazi Cola]

Gohan said that he made Gi resembling Goku's because he wanted to be "...strong, like Father was." I don't think it's meant to be taken very literally, like, "I want to be as strong as Father was."

Is that the original? Viz makes it seem very literal, at least to me.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gohan said that he made Gi resembling Goku's because he wanted to be "...strong, like Father was." I don't think it's meant to be taken very literally, like, "I want to be as strong as Father was."

Yeah. Even if it was "I want to be strong as Father was", he probably holds so much respect for Goku that he still thinks he's not as strong as him. For all we know, he could be stronger than 100% Freeza, and maybe even SSj Goku. I think all the Super Saiyans are in a league of their own, anyway.

@Kaboom: And as for young SSj Trunks, we didn't see the whole battle between him and Gohan. Gohan could've severely exhausted him (since we see him panting during and after the battle), and Gohan claims that Trunks may even surpass him in a few months. Whether or not he was just giving him confidence, for Gohan to then say that he was the only one who would be able to defeat the Artificial Humans after he was gone (and after Gohan would die, he'd be training without a sparring partner), he can't have been that weak.

Not ruling the possibility out, though. He could be 100,000,000 and still be weaker than 100% Freeza, though. And I know you were only saying "The only Super Saiyan in the whole series who's even plausibly that weak is young 12-year-old Future Trunks".

[jackjack]

I'd rank them as:
Yardrat Goku (220) > Trunks (200) > Gohan (180) > Mecha Freeza (160) > Namek Goku (150) > Freeza (130-140)

[Senzu_Bean]

According to Daizenshuu 2 Trunks is far stronger than Freeza and Goku were on Namek:

"He possesses tremendous battle power, cutting Freeza in half with a single slice, who had given Goku a difficult fight.";
"Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks."

Since Trunks and Gohan are pretty much the same the latter is too stronger than Freeza. Thus Goku grow enormously in that one year period, since he too could dispose of Freeza and Cold that easily. Seeing how Trunks believes Goku is even more amazing that what he was told about Goku is probably a little stronger than Trunks.

Does this make sense?

[Piccolo Daimao]

According to Daizenshuu 2 Trunks is far stronger than Freeza and Goku were on Namek:

"He possesses tremendous battle power, cutting Freeza in half with a single slice, who had given Goku a difficult fight.";
"Freeza had tenaciously been revived and became a demon of vengeance. Through mechanization, he had obtained even more gigantic power, but he is completely powerless before Super Saiyan Trunks."

Since Trunks and Gohan are pretty much the same the latter is too stronger than Freeza. Thus Goku grow enormously in that one year period, since he too could dispose of Freeza and Cold that easily. Seeing how Trunks believes Goku is even more amazing that what he was told about Goku is probably a little stronger than Trunks.

Does this make sense?

Yeah. I don't know about Trunks being far stronger than Freeza and Goku were on Namek, though...it just sounds like too much of a leap. If SSj Goku at 150 mil and Freeza at 120 mil were even (a difference of 1.25x), then Trunks must be more than 187.5 mil, and Goku even stronger than that. I dunno, it just sounds iffy to me.

[Senzu_Bean]

I too don't like Goku growing that much in one year. But maybe the task of going at will/mastering Super Saiyan really make one big hell of training. One thing is certain in this logic - #19 and #20 are miles ahead of Freeza since in those 3 years Goku should be in a completely different level than he was before.

I'm personally inclined to believe the Future #17 and #18 are equal to #19 and #20. Mainly because Trunks said if his primary plan didn't succeed he would then return to his future with Goku. And there is Piccolo's line which he wonder if the Cyborgs are weaker or instead they are much, much stronger.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I too don't like Goku growing that much in one year. But maybe the task of going at will/mastering Super Saiyan really make one big hell of training. One thing is certain in this logic - #19 and #20 are miles ahead of Freeza since in those 3 years Goku should be in a completely different level than he was before.

That's a little hard for me to wrap my head around...#19 & 20 stronger than Freeza? I don't know, it didn't seem like they were all that strong; their "strength" really only came in the energy-absorbing. #19's greatest feat alone was beating a crippled SSj Goku suffering from heart disease. And then there's Piccolo, and #17's "half-power" statement, and this, and that...*brain explodes*

[Senzu_Bean]

*brain explodes*

Indeed. This part of the story is the hardest to relate battle powers with the previous arc.

[Piccolo Daimao]

*brain explodes*

Indeed. This part of the story is the hardest to relate battle powers with the previous arc.

Yeah. I'm just going to pull out and say it doesn't make sense.

[jackjack]

I'm personally inclined to believe the Future #17 and #18 are equal to #19 and #20.

The Trunks that grew even stronger when he came back 3 years later admitted that he was still no match for those future cyborgs and was assured that Vegeta (who's stronger than himself) couldn't defeat them without the help of a healthy Goku, but even this Vegeta, was able to murder 19 with ease.

[Senzu_Bean]

The Trunks that grew even stronger when he came back 3 years later...

Is there anything that suggest Trunks got stronger in those 3 years, which is a lot less time for him? I'm talking about statements on the story, not logical deductions. And I don't recall Trunks thinking in bring Vegeta and Goku to defeat the Cyborgs. Trunks acted as if Goku was the strongest of them, when Vegeta was already stronger than Goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Trunks that grew even stronger when he came back 3 years later...

Is there anything that suggest Trunks got stronger in those 3 years, which is a lot less time for him? I'm talking about statements on the story, not logical deductions. And I don't recall Trunks thinking in bring Vegeta and Goku to defeat the Cyborgs. Trunks acted as if Goku was the strongest of them, when Vegeta was already stronger than Goku.

Because Trunks wouldn't be fucking around for 3 years (or, what, 8 months, is that how much time the time machine needs to recharge?) not training while the Artificial Humans were destroying Earth. It's logical to assume that Trunks was training. I know you were talking about "statements on the story", but they wouldn't need to mention it since it was pretty much overshadowed by #19 and #20 being "the wrong androids" and then the danger of #17 & #18 being released. I don't think anyone would've bothered to mention, "Hey, kid, you've gotten stronger!" when there were much more important things going on.

[dbgtFO]

I'd rank them as:
Yardrat Goku (220) > Trunks (200) > Gohan (180) > Mecha Freeza (160) > Namek Goku (150) > Freeza (130-140)

I would rank them as Mecha supp. Freeza (4) Namek Freeza (<<(decreasing)80) < Namek Goku (80) < Trunks (84) < Freeza (120) < Mecha Freeza (130) < Fresh Namek Goku (140) < Yardrat Goku (145).
As Goku was severely weakened after KK*20 and Trunks wasn't directly stated to be stronger, than 100% Freeza.
So yeah Cooler would own Trunks in my view.

[Kaboom]

"Miles ahead of Freeza?" I don't think so. #19 and #20 were weak as piss.

At the start of their fight, Goku's sickness was already affecting his power and cutting it down to a severe degree. But even a weakened Goku was still more than strong enough, surprisingly so, to beat #19's pudgy ass all across the landscape. Only after absorbing an entire Kamehameha did 19 even match Goku, who was by then even sicker and weaker. After absorbing even more Ki from Goku directly, having now "multiplied" his original power from all he'd thus absorbed, #19 was still easily beaten by Vegeta, and Piccolo still had no fears or qualms about fighting him either. But even after absorbing a ton of Vegeta's Ki as well, #19 was still easily maimed and blown up by the aforementioned newest Super Saiyan, who at best was maybe stronger than Goku would have been if not sick.

So unless you think Goku started out already 5x stronger than his Namek self (which is a big stretch, to describe it as nicely as possible), then no way in all 4 layers of Hell was #19 stronger than Freeza. MAYBE he ended up maxing out as such after absorbing all that Ki, but was he that strong in the beginning? Hellz to the no.

#20, however, was a bit better off. He was apparently capable of beating the drained and weakened Vegeta after #19's utter destruction. But later on, after absorbing Ki from both Vegeta and Piccolo, was still too weak to fight either of them, getting pwned by Piccolo alone. So if either of these Androids has a chance against Freeza, it'd be #20. But I'm not convinced he could do it without absorbing a substantial amount of Ki first.


As for Trunks, he only spent a few months in the future before coming back again. He was 17 when he first visited, and he was still 17 when he returned again. And since in the future he has nobody to train with and no particularly beneficial place or means of training alone, he wouldn't have gotten much stronger, if at all. Any tiny advancements he made in that time would utterly pale in comparison to all the heroes in the past.

[Piccolo Daimao]

As for Trunks, he only spent a few months in the future before coming back again. He was 17 when he first visited, and he was still 17 when he returned again. And since in the future he has nobody to train with and no particularly beneficial place or means of training alone, he wouldn't have gotten much stronger, if at all. Any tiny advancements he made in that time would utterly pale in comparison to all the heroes in the past.

Did he spend 8 months in the future, because that's how the time machine is said to recharge? If so, I doubt he only made "tiny advancements". Goku and Kuririn trained for 8 months under Kame-sennin, and they were clearly much stronger.

[Senzu_Bean]

That would work, Kaboom but only if you consider Goku and the rest to not have powered-up that much in those three years since Goku was already a good amount better than Freeza prior to the training.

I seriously don't know how big of increase Goku and Vegeta got from those 3 years of training.