Range of the Dragon Radar?

[dbgtFO]

Technically we do. When Piccolo Daimao kills Shenlong, the balls simply fall to the ground, similar to what we later see when Saichorou dies. So I always assumed the Namekian dragonballs disperse. Well, there's an easy way to solve this. When Dende makes the last wish to teleport everyone but Goku and Freeza to earth, what happens to the balls?

Shenlong isn't the creator of the Dragonballs...

[Piccolo Daimao]

Technically we do. When Piccolo Daimao kills Shenlong, the balls simply fall to the ground, similar to what we later see when Saichorou dies. So I always assumed the Namekian dragonballs disperse. Well, there's an easy way to solve this. When Dende makes the last wish to teleport everyone but Goku and Freeza to earth, what happens to the balls?

Shenlong isn't the creator of the Dragonballs...

I think the argument is that when the Great Elder died, so did Porunga. Even though God didn't die, Shenlong did. In both cases, the dragon died, the balls turned to stone and fell to the ground. So it may not be about the creator dying, just what happens when the dragon dies.

[Gaffer Tape]

*snip*

I'm sorry. But nothing that you said is in any way conclusive. If the manga had shown the balls scatter, then that would have been conclusive for my side. But just because we didn't see them scatter in that panel doesn't mean they didn't off-panel. Up until the point it cuts away, they're behaving exactly as the earth balls do--flying up into the air. Does it cut away because Toriyama didn't feel compelled to show us the same action we see every other time we see the balls disperse? Or did it cut away because flying up into the air was the only action they took? WE DON'T KNOW. To say anything one way or the other is an assumption.

And if they didn't scatter at that point (because they were following the Grand Elder to earth) doesn't necessarily mean they don't NORMALLY. Again, everything we see of the Namekian dragonballs is under extraordinary circumstances. You can't base their normal behavior off of an aberration. It'd be like watching the test drive of a car only for the driver to purposely slam it into a wall. Would you then conclude that that car is always going to slam into walls?

Also, Piccolo did not create the dragonballs. His life force is tied to them. Nothing more. And I never said that the earth dragonballs had the power to follow their creator. Again, that's not something we know. Like you, I believe that's a function only the Namekian balls have. But unlike you, I don't believe that it normally happens. And there is honestly no more evidence for your side than my side. There is no definitive answer.

[the_abberration]

I'm sorry. But nothing that you said is in any way conclusive. If the manga had shown the balls scatter, then that would have been conclusive for my side. But just because we didn't see them scatter in that panel doesn't mean they didn't off-panel. Up until the point it cuts away, they're behaving exactly as the earth balls do--flying up into the air. Does it cut away because Toriyama didn't feel compelled to show us the same action we see every other time we see the balls disperse? Or did it cut away because flying up into the air was the only action they took? WE DON'T KNOW. To say anything one way or the other is an assumption.

If they dispersed, then how could they have landed together next to Guru on Earth. It's in the manga. You can see it. They left Namek together. They landed on Earth together. How can you say we don't know when we actually do know?

And if they didn't scatter at that point (because they were following the Grand Elder to earth) doesn't necessarily mean they don't NORMALLY. Again, everything we see of the Namekian dragonballs is under extraordinary circumstances. You can't base their normal behavior off of an aberration. It'd be like watching the test drive of a car only for the driver to purposely slam it into a wall. Would you then conclude that that car is always going to slam into walls?

They would follow Guru normally though, because they are connected to him. That is the reason he passes the Eldership to Miri. Because when Guru left the mortal plane (through his natural death), the dragonballs would naturally follow. He broke that connection so the balls would act differently and not follow him as they normally would, but instead stay behind when he left. Guru even says:

When I die, the dragonballs will "also" disappear. Out of his own mouth he admits the balls will follow suit to his actions because they are connected.

If anything, the extreme circumstances are the reason that Guru or the dragonballs don't disappear together when he dies (the first time on Namek I mean).

Also, Piccolo did not create the dragonballs. His life force is tied to them. Nothing more. And I never said that the earth dragonballs had the power to follow their creator. Again, that's not something we know. Like you, I believe that's a function only the Namekian balls have. But unlike you, I don't believe that it normally happens. And there is honestly no more evidence for your side than my side. There is no definitive answer.

In contrast when Kami and Piccolo disappear, the balls do not disappear. Because they are not connected in the same way they are with Guru. When they leave the mortal plane, the dragonballs turn to stone (instead of disappearing along with them).

Another example, would be GT (if you allow it). When they evacuate Earth to go to planet Tuffle (under an extreme circumstance), the Earth dragonballs don't follow Dende. They remain on Earth when it explodes. They used the Namek balls to wish Earth (and the Earth balls) back.

[Gaffer Tape]

Um... the dragonballs NEVER disappeared when the Grand Elder died. The first time he died, they acted just like the earth dragonballs and simply turned to stone. So I don't know where you're getting that from. I don't even know where you're assuming that from. There's not so much as an implication that the balls would straight up disappear upon their creator's death. In fact, the exact opposite is shown.

[the_abberration]

Um... the dragonballs NEVER disappeared when the Grand Elder died. The first time he died, they acted just like the earth dragonballs and simply turned to stone. So I don't know where you're getting that from. I don't even know where you're assuming that from. There's not so much as an implication that the balls would straight up disappear upon their creator's death. In fact, the exact opposite is shown.

When Guru gives his ball to Krillin, he says "When I die, the dragonballs will "also" disappear" There is no assumption to be made. The character in question outright explains what will happen.

The reason they don't disappear on Earth when Guru dies (and disappears), is because he broke the connection and established it with Miri. Because Miri is the new Elder, the "dragonballs will once again burn bright" as Guru says, instead of doing what they normally would do as earlier stated and disappear with him.

Again, it's not an assumption. The character in question stated what the dragonballs would do under normal circumstances. Then later does something to change those circumstances. It's in the manga.

[Gaffer Tape]

Um... the dragonballs NEVER disappeared when the Grand Elder died. The first time he died, they acted just like the earth dragonballs and simply turned to stone. So I don't know where you're getting that from. I don't even know where you're assuming that from. There's not so much as an implication that the balls would straight up disappear upon their creator's death. In fact, the exact opposite is shown.

When Guru gives his ball to Krillin, he says "When I die, the dragonballs will "also" disappear" There is no assumption to be made. The character in question outright explains what will happen.

Sigh. That's not what happens, though. We see what happens when the Grand Elder dies. The first time he dies, without any kind of successor. The balls turn to stone. Period. That's it. You're right in that there is no assumption to be made because it is explicitly shown that they turn to stone when he dies.

[the_abberration]

Sigh. No. Just no. We see what happens when the Grand Elder dies. The first time he dies, without any kind of successor. The balls turn to stone. Period. That's it. You're right in that there is no assumption to be made because it is explicitly shown that they turn to stone when he dies.

That death was not natural though. That is the reason he was able to be revived by the Earth Dragonballs in the first place. Had it been natural, he would have done what he did on Earth. Pass the Eldership to a successor (so the balls won't disappear when he dies), die, and disappear.

When Guru has his conversation with Krillin, he is speaking of his impeading natural death.

"My life unfortunately will probably only last a few more days. In that time, can you take from our foes the balls they have already gathered? I fear it is impossible. And when I die, the dragonballs will also disappear."

It's in the manga.

No assumption. Straight form the horses mouth.

[Gaffer Tape]

Look, you just said there are two ways in which the Grand Elder can die: after having passed on his title to a successor or after not having done so. And we see both of those ways play out in the story. In the first scenario, the dragonballs DON'T disappear. In the second scenario, the dragonballs ALSO DON'T disappear. I really don't see how much clearer this could possibly be.

[the_abberration]

In the second scenario, the dragonballs ALSO DON'T disappear. I really don't see how much clearer this could possibly be.

In the second scenario Guru changed the normal cicumstances by passing the connection to Miri. If Guru died naturally without changing those circumstances, the balls would disappear when he does. Why? He says so.

"And when I die, the dragonballs will also disappear." True, it doesn't happen that way. Only because Guru made changes so it wouldn't happen normally.

I don't see how much clearer that point can be made.

[Gaffer Tape]

And earlier we DO see him die without passing his powers on. And the dragonballs turn to stone, not disappear. I don't see how you're missing this. It's chapter 294 in the manga, episode 76 in the TV series. The Grand Elder dies. The balls turn to stone. Endgame. There's nothing more to say on the subject. Regardless of what he may or may not have said, that's simply what happens. How can you just ignore it?

I'm going to have to respectfully bow out of this discussion because at this point I'm just talking to a wall.

[the_abberration]

And earlier we DO see him die without passing his powers on. And the dragonballs turn to stone, not disappear. I don't see how you're missing this. It's chapter 294 in the manga, episode 76 in the TV series. The Grand Elder dies. The balls turn to stone. Endgame. There's nothing more to say on the subject. That's simply what happens. How can you just ignore it?

I'm not ignoring it. On Namek. He died under duress, the dragonballs did not complete the final wish, and they did not fullfill the natural end result. Weather that end result would be they disperse or not. When Daimao destroyed Shenron, he did so before Shenron could complete the natural end result, by returning to the balls and dispersing. In both cases, outside circumstances prevented the natural end result.

I can read the manga and know this with making assumptions and drawing conclusions. It's either stated or shown in black and white.


When they use the wish to revive everyone on Namek, the dragon completed the end result. Turning to stone and dispersing.

When they use the final wish on Namek, it too completed the end result. Turning to stone and heading to the Elder. Since he wasn't dead at the time they did not disappear, Since he was on Earth, they followed him to Earth.

When Guru does die, he prevents the dragonballs from following him by breaking the connection and passing it to Miri. Had this not been done, (again outside circumstances prevnting the natural result) as Guru says himself, he would have died (as Elder) and the balls would disappear (following the Elder).

Again, I can read the manga and know this with making assumptions and drawing conclusions. It's either stated or shown in black and white.

Everything I brought up is in the manga too.

DBZ(or DB) Volumes 7 (23), 11(27) & 12(28)

I'm going to have to respectfully bow out of this discussion because at this point I'm just talking to a wall.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I'm satisfied I supported my side sufficiently enough though. I think we are just stuck on opposite sides of the spectrum on the matter however. I never once thought of debating with you as talking to a wall neither. I did take the time to view your points as best as I could in the context as you stated. But I felt I had enough evidence to make me believe otherwise. I assume you did the same.

[Bussani]

This only went in circles because you can't see the difference between conclusive evidence and your own assumptions. Whenever a different possibility is presented, you merely counter it with another assumption ("dragon balls don't just follow their creators to other planets or half of them would have followed Piccolo") and keep insisting that your way is the only way. It's silly. Neither Gaffer Tape nor I were even arguing that your theory was wrong, but honestly, your explanation just gets more and more convoluted the longer this goes on.

[the_abberration]

This only went in circles because you can't see the difference between conclusive evidence and your own assumptions. Whenever a different possibility is presented, you merely counter it with another assumption ("dragon balls don't just follow their creators to other planets or half of them would have followed Piccolo") and keep insisting that your way is the only way. It's silly. Neither Gaffer Tape nor I were even arguing that your theory was wrong, but honestly, your explanation just gets more and more convoluted the longer this goes on.

Again, I'm sorry if you feel that way. But I stand by my viewpoint. And I never said, my way was the only way. Show me where I said that. I simply stated points to support my view. You assumed that. I am actually stating that I'm not.

Also I never said you of Gaffer Tape said my theory was wrong. In fact show me where I did say that. I only tried to provide references to help make my point conclusive. If you think that point wasn't conclusive enough for the both of you, then so be it.

[Bussani]

You can go back yourself and count how many times you argued that your evidence wasn't inconclusive and that you weren't making assumptions, but I'm done.

[Dayspring]

Um, guys? We see more than just flying straight up in the manga. On Earth, we see the inert DBs land nearby, not go to Earth and disperse across the globe.

Also, the DBs do disappear when Guru dies; he means there will no longer be any DBs. Which is true, because inert DBs are not DBs at all; they're ordinary rocks.

[Gaffer Tape]

As for point one, yes, we do see them land on earth, but there's no clear indication given as to whether that's normal or if it's only because the Grand Elder is on earth (that's what this whole debate is about).

As for point two, exactly. That's what I'd been saying. Assuming the word "disappeared" is actually used, I never would have assumed it was meant to be taken literally. When the DBs turn to stone and fall to the ground, Dende knows exactly what it means. There wasn't any, "Huh. I'd always been told they'd literally vanish when the Grand Elder died. What's up with this?"

[dbgtFO]

Technically we do. When Piccolo Daimao kills Shenlong, the balls simply fall to the ground, similar to what we later see when Saichorou dies. So I always assumed the Namekian dragonballs disperse. Well, there's an easy way to solve this. When Dende makes the last wish to teleport everyone but Goku and Freeza to earth, what happens to the balls?

Shenlong isn't the creator of the Dragonballs...

I think the argument is that when the Great Elder died, so did Porunga. Even though God didn't die, Shenlong did. In both cases, the dragon died, the balls turned to stone and fell to the ground. So it may not be about the creator dying, just what happens when the dragon dies.

I can see that, but if that was what Gaffer Tapemeant, then he should have said that, instead of saying "Technically we do" since he was obviously replying(he didn't provide a qoute, but it looks like he replied to me) to my comment about the CREATOR dying during the wish making. And since Shenlong isn't the creator, I was simply correcting him on that.