Your inside "fanon" things

[Piccolo Daimao]

I disagree with this for a number of reasons:

1) Just because Tenshinhan says he'll never see them again doesn't mean he didn't train. Most of the time, no-one ever saw Tenshinhan and Chaozu, because they were out in the mountains, except when they were fighting against a threat like the Saiyans or the Artificial Humans. Same with Piccolo before he began living at God's Lookout. And after the three years training, it seemed like no-one had seen anyone for 3 years, other than the ones that were training together. Bulma and Kuririn are surprised at how big Gohan's gotten, and Goku says, "What's with the long face, Kuririn? Not happy to see us after all this time?"

The statement, a first even for someone used to leave to great lengths of time for training, implies that he doesn`t believe he will be needed again for anything. That right there is the main motivator for crazy ass training. Even in the run of the Android arc, Kuririn, Yamcha and Ten, feel that they can still fight the enemy.

It also suggests that he believes peace will endure this time.

I just took it as there was no threat that they knew of was going to come, so there was no need for them to meet again to fight the enemy. After the 23rd Tenka'ichi Budôkai, he knew Piccolo was still alive and that they'd have to fight him with Goku again. After he got resurrected, who's to say he didn't say the same thing to the Z-Warriors again? I mean, he wouldn't see them again if he was in the mountains with only Chaozu. They only saw each other again when Freeza came to Earth. He knew they would meet up to fight the Artificial Humans. So after Cell was defeated, no-one knew that there were going to be a villain coming back to destroy them all. That's the same with after Freeza was defeated by Goku. I'm willing to guess that he may've said that to them again; we just didn't see it because it cut straight to when everyone sensed Freeza and King Cold's chi.

2) I believe the Z-Warriors just didn't focus as hard to find them. Tenshinhan and Chaozu can't have been constantly training non-stop. At the beginning of the Saiyan arc, when Bulma reads everyone's battle powers, I think they were all suppressed, since Kuririn and Rôshi had just woken up and weren't fighting. What makes us so sure Tenshinhan and Yamcha weren't suppressed either?

She had a scouter.

But even Goku had hard time finding Bulma's chi at first, when he knew he absolutely had to. It's not as if anyone was going to die if they didn't find Tenshinhan, so they just scanned for Tenshinhan and probably didn't concentrate as hard as they could. OK, example time. Say, you turn on the radio and you're trying to find a channel like Xtra amidst over 200 other channels. You browse casually through most of them, but then you can't be arsed and turn it off. But if you fully went through all the channels, trying to find, I dunno, an interview you yourself did with Elton John, you'd eventually find it. That's what Goku did to find Bulma's tiny "around 5" chi. What the Z-Warriors did was scroll through the first 30 channels and then turn off the radio because they weren't going to waste their time rooting through the radio for one channel. Tenshinhan and Chaozu would been suppressed a lot of the time if they were travelling, and the Z-Warriors aren't going to be trying to track them 24/7.

4) Aren't they wearing a similar kind of garb in the Trunks arc? Or were those training clothes? Anyway, the first time I read it, I never took it as travelling gear. And besides, if they were travelling, why would they wear training gear? Like I said, they're not going to be training non-stop. They likely travelled from place to place, stopping at spots to train.

I did mentioned that it`s not like i am saying they never trained. Only that nothing much suggests that any of them did any kind of focused training in those gap years. Kuririn at least had days where he sparred with 18, with her focus being to have him earn a good spot for money, while she cleaned house for the championship.

Kuririn simply seemed to have a better motivation (although a forced one), and a better sparring partner at the time of the Budokai. And this is probably the most important aspect when we compare the humans in the beginning of this arc - at the time that statement of Yamcha was made - who was truly active?

5) And yeah, they are in training gear afterwards, which confirms that they were training. In the story, everything indicates that Kuririn had stopped training. He'd stopped shaving his head after the fighting had stopped, which was a martial arts discipline he'd upheld from his Shaolin monk training since his first appearance. This indicates that he'd stopped training in martial arts together. At the very least, he'd perhaps kept himself in shape and maintained the level of power he had at the Cell Games, but not training fiercely like Tenshinhan.

I agree that Kuririn for those seven years, or most of them, went inactive as well. The thing is, we know that before the Tournament, a week or so, he got to spar with 18 and got a motivation to train harder. Meanwhile we can`t tell whether Ten was actively training at the time, much less fiercely or not.

They wear the training garbs under the travelling ones, like they showed when Mecha Freeza showed up. But it`s what they were doing at the time that is the important aspect. And remember i am not saying none of them did any kind of training whatsoever, that is not my point.

OK, I understand that you're not saying Tenshinhan didn't train for certain. I understand, from what we see in the story, Kuririn probably did have a better motivation, since #18 forced him to train for the 25th Tenka'ichi Budôkai. I just can't see Tenshinhan stopping training, that's all, when he doesn't lead as relaxed a more-or-less Earthling life as Kuririn and Yamcha. I don't see any reason for Tenshinhan to stop training. I see reason for Kuririn to, however, because he got married, had a kid and hasn't been travelling from place to place for 7 years.

Anyway, I think we should stop right about here. I just wanted to answer your questions before I stepped out of this discussion, since the Kuririn-Tenshinhan topic is not anything that's new, and I'm sure you're aware of that. As I said, I don't even care whether or not Tenshinhan's stronger than Kuririn or not in the Boo arc, since, post-Freeza arc, they don't do anything of note, nor do they fight (the Cell Juniors don't count, they got their ass beat into the ground before they could do shit). I know you're not arguing against me. But I'd prefer if we just moved on to something that won't go round in circles.

[Senzu_Bean]

I disagree. Why would someone's "at rest" battle power be as high as their maximum? I don't understand what you mean by "It cannot be sensed that great". That sounds like you're explaining suppression, which is a different thing to "at rest".

Cause they cannot manipulate their battle power. If those people who cannot manipulate their battle power can decrease their battle power by being at rest the whole logic of manipulating battle power goes through the window. And by "It cannot be sensed that great" I was referring, for example, to Gohan not being able to sense Videl before she started to fight.

People need to remember that the human characters are only that: human.

Are you people still using the logic "they are only humans" to put the Earthlings at ridiculous battle powers of 30,000 or less?

No matter what training the Earthlings did, they always improved much more than Goku did. And in less time. That logic is fucked up.

That's after he and the other humans were BARELY in the 1000-2000 range during the Saiyan battle, after doing the absolute best training their planet had to offer.

Goku was barely at 400 with that same training. You're supporting my view then.

And Krillin didn't train with #18. Nothing implies such thing.

Meh, every one of the main four are warriors by definition. What is the Daizenshuu supposed to be trying to prove here, the obvious?

They are no longer labeled as "traveling warriors" by the time of 25th Budokai. Only Chaotzu and Tenshinhan are.

I think I will stick to my fan assumption. But then again, isn't that the point of the thread anyway?

Yes, I guess so.

[dbgtFO]

I disagree. Why would someone's "at rest" battle power be as high as their maximum? I don't understand what you mean by "It cannot be sensed that great". That sounds like you're explaining suppression, which is a different thing to "at rest".

Cause they cannot manipulate their battle power. If those people who cannot manipulate their battle power can decrease their battle power by being at rest the whole logic of manipulating battle power goes through the window. And by "It cannot be sensed that great" I was referring, for example, to Gohan not being able to sense Videl before she started to fight.

People need to remember that the human characters are only that: human.

Fuck that logic. Are you people still using the logic "they are only humans" to put the Earthlings at ridiculous battle powers of 30,000 or less?

No matter what training the Earthlings did, they always improved much more than Goku did. And in less time. That logic is fucked up.

That's after he and the other humans were BARELY in the 1000-2000 range during the Saiyan battle, after doing the absolute best training their planet had to offer.

Goku was barely at 400 with that same training. You're supporting my view then.

And Krillin didn't train with #18. Nothing implies such thing.

I'll agreenot with the language though The Earthlings by some magical way increased their powers to a level, that would destroy Goku even though they received the same training! And even more impressing, Goku had 3 years to get to + 924, while Tenshinhan and the others only had less than a year! And Krillin is at least above that even in his suppressed state(shown when Nappa scouts Krillin, Piccolo and Gohan, the lowest BP was 981).
And then of course we have Piccolo who apparently got stronger than Nail's 42.000 or stronger than the other warrior Namekians in less than 6 days, wihle Goku used 6 months to increase his Maximum power by less than 10 times.
So why can't Tenshinhan and maybe Yamcha have such a giant increase, when they stayed with King Kai longer than Goku did?

[Godo]

No matter what training the Earthlings did, they always improved much more than Goku did. And in less time. That logic is fucked up.

Eh, yeah. To support the story and eventual cliffhangers. How else would they get enough cannon-fodder to entertain the villains until Goku showed up?

Vegeta and Nappa fight: Yamcha dies, slowing things a bit. Chao-zu dies, slowing things further. Tenshinhan dies, also slowing things further.
The main point here is: "They are stronger than Radditz! Look at how easy they are trashed by Vegeta and Nappa! Goku is doomed! There is no way he had become strong enough!" and BAM! we are astonished, Goku owned Nappa.

Ginyu-Tokusentai fight: Kuririn and Gohan keep them busy, as Goku arrives to save the day. Kuririn who had become much stronger wasn't enough to defeat them! And even Vegeta who now is in the upper leauge! Goku can't certainly defe-BAM! Goku owns the Ginyu Tokusentai.

Freeza: Kuririn and Gohan and Piccolo with their strengths are helpless...and Freeza has become even stronger! But wait! Vegeta is a Super Saiya-ji-oh wait. He got pwned. Guess not. Oh, no! They are going to die! But wait! Goku comes to save the day once again!

Do you get my point now? The only reason any character except for Goku advancing is to show how terrifying an enemy is, so that Goku can look formidable defeating them.

[Senzu_Bean]

And even more impressing, Goku had 3 years to get to + 924, while Tenshinhan and the others only had less than a year!

Better yet is if you're going by their absolutely maximum then Tenshinhan is over than 3,000 or if you believe Nappa is 8,000 then close to 6,000 or so.

Yep, they surely progress much slower than Goku...

The only reason any character except for Goku advancing is to show how terrifying an enemy is, so that Goku can look formidable defeating them.

And?! They still progress much faster than Goku do with the same training and in less time. That is by no means a reason to put the Earthlings at 10,000 by the time Majin Buu shows up. At least not when the story implies they are actually much stronger than that.

Incorrect. There was one big difference between the training the humans did and when Goku did the "same" thing. I specifically mentioned it in my post and accounted for it in my explanation. See if you can find it.

Their training with North Kaio was also very different than Goku's training and much longer (for Tenshinhan that is).

[Kaboom]

No matter what training the Earthlings did, they always improved much more than Goku did. And in less time. That logic is fucked up.
...

Goku was barely at 400 with that same training. You're supporting my view then.

Incorrect.

There was one big difference between the training the humans did and when Goku did the "same" thing. I specifically mentioned it in my post and accounted for it in my explanation. See if you can find it.


EDIT:

Their training with North Kaio was also very different than Goku's training and much longer (for Tenshinhan that is).

Exactly, it wasn't the same training it was different in one big way. That way is "strength in numbers."

Whenever the humans made progress by doing the "same" method of training as Goku, they were always doing it as a group, learning together and especially sparring. Having someone or multiple someones there to test and challenge yourself against encourages faster growth, and we've seen that on several occasions in the series.

The humans (possibly) got more than Goku out of training at Kaio's for 2 reasons: 1) they were there longer, and 2) they had each other to spar and train together with.

[Duo]

I've long believed that Broli was intended to be viewed as mentally handicapped.

I agree with this. Not the "intended to be viewed" bit (I just think Toei wanted him to be viewed as a crazy, abnormally strong guy, which is what most villains are like), just that he's mentally handicapped. I've always thought he's had some kind of mental condition. I think this is fueled by the fact that he was apparently "tormented" by Goku's crying. Even if you were a baby at the time, you wouldn't suddenly turn crazy because a baby cried a lot, much less try to exact brutal revenge upon that grown-up baby and his friends, if you didn't have something wrong in the brain.

That explanation isn't nearly as potent in upsetting Broli fans, despite being much more thought-out and intelligent sounding.

[Godo]

And?! They still progress much faster than Goku do with the same training and in less time. That is by no means a reason to put the Earthlings at 10,000 by the time Majin Buu shows up. At least not when the story implies they are actually much stronger than that.

And the conclusion is that they will stop to grow when they become obsolete. In other words, at the time Vegeta achieved the SSJ transformation and transformed into a human punching-bag, they weren't needed to be strong anymore.

Not so say that they would be totally unnecessary as fusion candidates...I still believe that Saiya-jins were under five millions in their base at the Buu Arc. So if Goku fused with Tenshinhan in the Buu Arc and could still transform into a Super Saiya-jin, he would be able to handle Buu.

I don't believe that they stayed in the 10,000s in the Buu Arc either, to be honest. In fact, I believe that they grew a lot until the Androids Arc. But after that, they had no room to improve more, let alone the motivation and the need.

So, as a summary, the humans probably stopped to grow after the Androids arc. But they were probably stronger than 10,000 (hell, Kuririn is stated to break that power limit even against Freeza!).

[dbgtFO]

Not so say that they would be totally unnecessary as fusion candidates...I still believe that Saiya-jins were under five millions in their base at the Buu Arc. !).

Lolwut, well since this is a fanon thread here is my fanon about their power levels/strenghts:

1. No unfused base Saiya-Jin ever surpassed Freeza's 50% power. So Piccolo would have won the 25th TB, if it hadn't been for the intervention of Kaioshin!!

2. No earthlings ever went beyond 10 million, only Tenshinhan with his KiKoHo is able to surpass that wall.

3. Piccolo(Buu arc) at his max would be a little stronger than a Cell Jr.

4. Dabra at his max would be slightly stronger than Perfect Cell's powered up form against Goku.

5. Both 19 and 20 are weaker than 50% Freeza, until they start absorbing ki.

6. Base Gotenks is not even over 100 million, so Piccolo overestimated him and he overestimated himself. Even after his training in the ROSAT he is still not over 100 million.

7. SSJ Gotenks is weaker than SSJ 2 Goku.

8. Base Vegetto is a little weaker than SSJ Gotenks.

9. Strongest unfused good guys: "Ultimate" Gohan > SSJ 3 Goku(dead) > SSJ 3 Gotenks > SSJ 3 Goku(alive and unable to reach full power).

10. Strongest character ever SSJ Vegetto and is also the only one to go beyond 100 billion!!!

[Savage68]

01. DBO is canon.
02. DBGT is noncanon.
03. DB Multiverse is semi-canon.
08. Piccolo and Tenshinhan are stronger than SSJ Kid Goten and SSJ Present Timeline Kid Trunks.
13. Hatchiyack exists.
14. Hildegarn and Tapion exist.

DIE!!!

[Aeon Amber]

Gohan's sword in the pre-Vegeta/Nappa training arc is the one that he later gave to Trunks.

It was my fanon before I saw Movie 13, at any rate, and I still like it as a pet theory. Even if Gohan's sword was anime filler (can't remember if it was ever around in the manga)...

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

Piccolo gave him the sword in the Manga, too. The problem with that theory is that the two swords look nothing alike, and one was designed with a child in mind (so it's much smaller than Future Trunks' sword even if you ignore the appearance)...though if not for that, I'd gladly embrace this theory, because the end of Movie #13 makes my head hurt with what is this I don't even X_X

[nathantheguitarist]

Neither theory works, because everyone had those swords in the future.

Movie 13, that could some separate destiny type of thing Trunks still gets a sword, but it's in no way the sword Future Trunks has. That'd be a personal fanon, only as long as you don't think Future Trunks got it from Tapion.

[Aeon Amber]

I don't care for Movie 13 either, I admit.

You could handwave "the swords look different" with "Trunks pimped it out big time" I guess.

According to DB Wiki (which I don't like using as a source, generally) "In Dragon Ball: Raging Blast, it is stated that Tapion gave his sword to Future Trunks." I haven't played the game so I wouldn't know, but this doesn't sit well with me anyway for some reason. I mean, considering how strong the enemy was in Movie 13, Trunks would have been wiped out instantly.

I could go for "both Trunks' get a sword, but different ones/in different ways" though.

[nathantheguitarist]

According to DB Wiki ....

No. Everyone in the future had swords. Kinda like everyone in Terminator has guns.

Here.
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... 74#p334074

[Aeon Amber]

As I say, I don't like DB Wiki. (If I see something in there that relates I'll add it to a discussion for the sake of putting it out there, but it's not the greatest source by a long shot).

Sorry, it has been a while since I watched anything so any theories/recollections of mine need some dusting off, so to speak. Thanks for pointing out the swords thing though. I never noticed that.

So much for my fanon. XD

[Rocketman]

You could handwave "the swords look different" with "Trunks pimped it out big time" I guess. :P

That is not how swords work.

[caejones]

You could handwave "the swords look different" with "Trunks pimped it out big time" I guess.

That is not how swords work.

... Unless you can melt steel by yelling at it.

[dbgtFO]

You could handwave "the swords look different" with "Trunks pimped it out big time" I guess.

That is not how swords work.

Well it is Dragonball we are talking about afterall, so making things, which are impossible in the real word, is possible within that universe.

Also if he chooses it to be his fanon, that Trunks' sword used to belong to "whiny little bitch" then I'm okay with that, as it makes sense on some level, that Gohan would pass on his sword to Trunks, even though he never used it in major battles, only when having to make dinner. So maybe it was his way of remembering the long gone Piccolo or something...

[Rocketman]

Also if he chooses it to be his fanon, that Trunks' sword used to belong to "whiny little bitch" :lol: then I'm okay with that, as it makes sense on some level, that Gohan would pass on his sword to Trunks

To convert Gohan's sword into what Trunks uses would require it to be completely melted down and reforged with more metal added. It's not the same sword anymore after that.