Toriyama's Intended Ending(s): A Guided Tour

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, the way I see it is that the storyline changes came up in the design stage, not after the chapters themselves were released. Like, Toriyama showed his editor his finished sketch for Cell, he didn't like it but allowed him to use it as long as Toriyama came up with a way to transform it into something he preferred.

[Juan Fra]

Great read!

Mad props to the OP (Herms).

[GS7X7]

What were Toriyama's stated reasons for ending DBZ anyway?


Between making what was probably a huge-assload of money, 10 years of non-stop work, having his editor be a dick during the Cell saga, the rumor of fans getting ultra-pissed at him when he tried to make Gohan the hero (note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan), and then having not only the ultra-invincible fusion possibilities but the "resurrect/fix anything/anyone" Dragon Balls as well, maybe he started to run out of ideas on how to keep things interesting, especially since Toei was willing to slug on without him.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

the rumor of fans getting ultra-pissed at him when he tried to make Gohan the hero (note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan)

That's kind of the hard part. The Internet obviously wasn't huge back in the early '90s like it is today, so how can you know what fans were talking about, back then?

[GS7X7]

Talk to Japanese fans online.

Obviously only a handful of us can do that.

(but not me )

[CODii]

(note Herms- that might be another interesting rumor to explore, how fans reacted at the time in Japan when Goku died and Toriyama tried to prop up Gohan),

He did cover that. It's in the second post under "Toriyama intended Gohan to be the hero of the Boo arc"

[GS7X7]

I guess I meant go more in depth specifically in that one area, should have rephrased it better.

[CODii]

In that case I guess I have to agree with Chibi Mystic Gohan on this one. It would be almost impossible to tell what fans were thinking that long ago.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Especially because a part of the rumor claims that fans were sending in angry letters to Shueisha/Toriyama. Even if we were to discover that some fans sent in a letter, it'd be impossible to find out just how many did.

[KillerCory]

Another amazing post by Herms.

[Rocketman]

a) Goku just "happened" to find one of Ginyu's space pods lying around.

b) Goku was shown screaming right as Namek exploded, and being engulfed in the explosion, so how did he have time to grab a space pod?

Also,

c) A cut-in-half Freeza who was so drained he couldn't even fly until Goku lent him some power get blasted by a Super Saiyan into an erupting lava pit and then the whole goddamn planet explodes but HE'S ALIIIVE~

d) Piccolo living, which I think is also influenced by all the times in the US version where a character would take an obviously fatal blow but get a "It's just a flesh wound!" dubbed in.

and the big one

e) Fatty McFat getting to be revived because he was sad and the chain of fix-everything wishes that had never been used before and that completely neuters the entire mood of the series since Raditz landed.

There's nothing really 'wrong' with any single one of these twists. It's that they all happen so close together that gives the impression that Freeza was the end and then it wasn't so he had to quickly slap some shit together to let the story continue.

None of the other arc endings have anywhere near the bullshit the ending of the Freeza arc pulls.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

c) A cut-in-half Freeza who was so drained he couldn't even fly until Goku lent him some power get blasted by a Super Saiyan into an erupting lava pit and then the whole goddamn planet explodes but HE'S ALIIIVE~

He didn't get thrown into any volcano, in the manga (just a nitpick). In any case, we're already talking about a guy that was implied to be able to survive the explosion of a planet in the first place. Freeza's just the guy that won't die! And we find out that Freeza's alive in, what, two chapters? Toriyama would have to be like "I'm ending the series!" one week, then saying "I'm not ending the series! Guess I'll write fifteen more volumes!!" the next week. Not likely.

d) Piccolo living, which I think is also influenced by all the times in the US version where a character would take an obviously fatal blow but get a "It's just a flesh wound!" dubbed in.

When was it implied that Piccolo was going to die? Goku even told Gohan that Piccolo was still alive, and that he should hurry up and take him home, because he was connected to the Dragon Balls! We're you expecting Piccolo to just die in Gohan's arms while he was carrying him to the ship?

e) Fatty McFat getting to be revived because he was sad and the chain of fix-everything wishes that had never been used before and that completely neuters the entire mood of the series since Raditz landed.

Yeah, Herms already thoroughly debunked that point in the opening post. Did you not read it all? Toriyama introduced the "natural causes" rule for the Grand Elder! It's not like he was writing himself out of a corner or anything, because he wrote himself into that corner in the same chapter! The "natural causes" rule was never mentioned before or after that point!

Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?

[Rocketman]

Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?

That's not what I was saying. My first post in this thread was about why it's so easy for people to believe that Freeza was the end when there's no proof - because the ending of the Namek arc is so sloppy even compared to the rest of Dragonball's slapdashery that it feels like it was the end, then hastily retconned.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Frankly, you've got nothin'. Come on, you seriously believe that Toriyama was planning on ending it here? Just because a couple of plot points were "bullshit"?

That's not what I was saying. My first post in this thread was about why it's so easy for people to believe that Freeza was the end when there's no proof - because the ending of the Namek arc is so sloppy even compared to the rest of Dragonball's slapdashery that it feels like it was the end, then hastily retconned.

Guess you're right. It took so long for you to reply to me, that I forgot what you had said originally!

So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)

[Rocketman]

So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)

Freeza should have been the end.
Freeza would have been the best ending.
The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

But no, there is no proof that it was supposed to be the end.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

Right, even though Herms and I have already debunked all of your complaints, Toriyama was still somehow jumping through hoops to continue the series...

[Fox666]

So, you no longer believe that Freeza was supposed to be the end? Because I've seen you make many of these points yourself, in the past. (And they don't make sense!)

Freeza should have been the end.
Freeza would have been the best ending.
The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

But no, there is no proof that it was supposed to be the end.

The series is called "Dragon Ball"... one of the best things about the "Freeza ending" is that the end would be after they end in the planet that originated the dragon balls, with much more powerfull ones.

Both Saiyan and Freeza arc were about villains looking for the dragon balls, isn't it strange that the dragon balls are not a important factor in the Cell and Buu sagas?

But yeah, you can't have Dr. Gero and Babidi after the Dragon Balls, that would have been too repetitive.

[Dayspring]

This panel, #10, features a sketch of Goku as an old man (featured in Dayspring’s avatar). This “geezer Goku” is sometimes cited as one of Toriyama’s planned endings for the series that was discarded, but as you can see it was less a solid plan and more like a “heh, maybe I could do this”. I think the French translation of Daizenshuu 7 (in which the comic is reprinted) may have contributed to this idea, since from what I remember it seemed as if the French translators didn’t take into account the fact that the comic was made years before DB ended, and translated Toriyama’s statements as if they were being made in retrospective after the series ended, thus transforming “hey, maybe I’ll do this” into “at one point, I planned on doing this”. But I can’t find a scan or translation of the French daizenshuu right now and this is all from memory, so for all I know I could be ragging on them for no reason at all. Wouldn’t be the first time.

The French version pretty much stated the exact same thing as your translation.

[Fin]

The amount of shitty twists required for it to not be the end is unequaled before or since.

Right, even though Herms and I have already debunked all of your complaints, Toriyama was still somehow jumping through hoops to continue the series...

Oh come on... just because he probably wasn't planning to end it there doesn't make him immune from shitty writing. I think that's Rocketman's point.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

That's clearly not the point he's trying to make, because he's still saying that it has something to do with the series ending. If the twists are shitty, just call them shitty! (Don't see why he gives the Freeza arc so much crap... the entire series is filled with absurd twists.)