When does Brolly appear???

[Xyex]

I watched it pretty recently, actually, and I have the movie's events stuck in my head. I know what happens, but you don't quite seem to be get my point, so let me repeat.

It's drama. It would have been a SHORT movie if Goku did immediately transform into a Super Saiyan.. In terms of events, character placements, transformations, etc., it fits perfectly into the three year gap.

And how would it have been short? What, because SSJ Goku won so easily? You do realize that if he'd gone SSJ sooner they'd have just made Cooler stronger to match him so the movie would have been longer. So that excuse is right out the window.

And again, drama would work for the likes of movies 6 and 7 but not for 4. Goku's not a complete idiot. He wouldn't wait until he was half dead before transforming. Hell, that kick that pushed him into the mountain nearly knocked him out. If it had, bye-bye Earth.

Icarus does at least appear in the Trunks Saga. I don't know how you consider Garlic Jr. to be a long movie broken into episodes. It may be filler, yes, but it exists within the events of the anime story.

Icarus in the Trunks Saga was filler. Normally I'll let filler stuff that simply doesn't fit slide, but only if it's something that can be, in some fashion, worked into the story. Icarus exists OUTSIDE of the series, be it manga or anime. He's a movie only character. Let me repeat. Movie only. It's just that simple. Anywhere that Icarus exists simply can't fit into the time-line.

And that, there, is the biggest plot-hole to Movie 5. You may not take the tail on Gohan or the fact Goku can't transform on his own, but you can't ignore the presence of Icarus. Icarus exists only outside of the series, he's an element of the movies, not the anime. Therefor Movie 5 does not fit into the anime.

[B-kun]

Higher Dragon (never quite understood the name "Icarus") appears in a few non-movie scenes, so he still fits. That's just how things are, Xyex. =/

[MyVisionity]

Icarus does at least appear in the Trunks Saga. I don't know how you consider Garlic Jr. to be a long movie broken into episodes. It may be filler, yes, but it exists within the events of the anime story.

Icarus in the Trunks Saga was filler. Normally I'll let filler stuff that simply doesn't fit slide, but only if it's something that can be, in some fashion, worked into the story. Icarus exists OUTSIDE of the series, be it manga or anime. He's a movie only character. Let me repeat. Movie only. It's just that simple. Anywhere that Icarus exists simply can't fit into the time-line.

Filler with Icarus can easily be worked into the anime, namely, the Garlic Jr. eps. It's not like Icarus' presence contradicted anything, and plus, he's the only element of that "saga" that couldn't necessarily fit into the anime storyline. If the anime wants to adapt a smalltime movie character into its main storyline, they can do so no problem, particularly if the character is only seen in filler and doesn't create any real conflict with the original story.

Higher Dragon (never quite understood the name "Icarus") appears in a few non-movie scenes, so he still fits. That's just how things are, Xyex. =/

I thought it was 'Haiyaa' as in 'Hire', or "Dragon for Hire".

[Xyex]

Higher Dragon (never quite understood the name "Icarus") appears in a few non-movie scenes, so he still fits. That's just how things are, Xyex. =/

Icarus is probably from the myth of the guy with the wax wings.

Anyway, um, yes, he does appear in a few filler scenes in the series, all of which are filler near the end of the Garlic Jr. mini-series. He was never introduced in the anime, his existance in the anime is a non-possibility. That's just how it is. I don't have anything against Garlic Jr., I like the movie and the mini-series, but it just doesn't fit into the series, that's all there is to it.

Filler with Icarus can easily be worked into the anime, namely, the Garlic Jr. eps. It's not like Icarus' presence contradicted anything, and plus, he's the only element of that "saga" that couldn't necessarily fit into the anime storyline. If the anime wants to adapt a smalltime movie character into its main storyline, they can do so no problem, particularly if the character is only seen in filler and doesn't create any real conflict with the original story.

Icarus' presence IS a contradiction. To accept the presence of him at ANY point during the course of the anime means that movies 3, 4, and 5 would have to fit in by default. Why? Well, movie 3 introudced him (obviously the character has to come from somewhere, so that means 3 has to be counted too). 4 and 5 because he's in them. And, as we know, 3 and 4 do not fit the time-line, even the anime one. That then discounts movie 5 and the Garlic Jr. 'Saga' as well.

I thought it was 'Haiyaa' as in 'Hire', or "Dragon for Hire".

It is.

[MyVisionity]

Filler with Icarus can easily be worked into the anime, namely, the Garlic Jr. eps. It's not like Icarus' presence contradicted anything, and plus, he's the only element of that "saga" that couldn't necessarily fit into the anime storyline. If the anime wants to adapt a smalltime movie character into its main storyline, they can do so no problem, particularly if the character is only seen in filler and doesn't create any real conflict with the original story.

Icarus' presence IS a contradiction. To accept the presence of him at ANY point during the course of the anime means that movies 3, 4, and 5 would have to fit in by default. Why? Well, movie 3 introudced him (obviously the character has to come from somewhere, so that means 3 has to be counted too). 4 and 5 because he's in them. And, as we know, 3 and 4 do not fit the time-line, even the anime one. That then discounts movie 5 and the Garlic Jr. 'Saga' as well.

Just because Icarus shows up in those 3 movies doesn't mean those movies have to fit into the anime time-line. He can simply be pulled from movie 3 and put into the anime if they want. If the plots of those movies don't fit into the timeline, it doesn't mean they can't bring a supporting character from the movies into the series. Icarus still existed at one point in time in the Dragon World; that's enough to bring him to the main storyline, especially for filler.

[Jerseymilk]

Well to me the first time I saw Movie 5, I got the distinct impression that Goku could not control his transformation yet. It came across to me like he was pushed over the edge to do so. I agree that that fight got really serious for Goku and he was hovering near death through most of it. Goku may like a challenge and a tough fight, but he also has a will to survive. Count how many times you could see the fear and worry in his eyes when he was being overpowered by an opponent. When Vegeta powered up in the Saiyajin saga for their dual, during certain parts in his fight with Freeza, heck even when he fought Raditz there were moments where he was panicking inside. Goku may seem stupid in other areas, but not combat. He always knows exactly how to gauge his opponents. From what I could see during those scenes, Goku DID NOT transform at will. So Xyex is not the only one here that got that impression when watching the movie folks.

[Xyex]

Just because Icarus shows up in those 3 movies doesn't mean those movies have to fit into the anime time-line. He can simply be pulled from movie 3 and put into the anime if they want. If the plots of those movies don't fit into the timeline, it doesn't mean they can't bring a supporting character from the movies into the series. Icarus still existed at one point in time in the Dragon World; that's enough to bring him to the main storyline, especially for filler.

I'll give that 4 and 5 can be left out, but if you're going to have Icarus in the anime you need to explain where he comes from and that's what movie 3 does. Therfore, to accept the Garlic Jr. Saga or Movie 5 as part of the time-line you MUST accept movie 3 as well, and it's obvious that it doesn't fit. So nothing with Icarus can fit (since he now his origins can't fit he can't fit and by default, what he's in can't fit).

[Conan the SSJ]

Ahem, Icarus also appeared in the first Trunks saga episode and the driving school episode, so Xyex, are you saying Gohan's dream sequence in the first Trunks saga episode and the driving school episode in general can't exist? Icarus wasn't just shown in the Garlic Jr. saga, but yes the Trunks saga as well, so Movie 5 can good and well use him and keep continuity. The aspect of Gohan's tail was just as B-kun said, an incident similar to Goku's case in original Dragonball during his 3 year world traveling, so it's logical to assume Gohan grew his tail back but had it cut off sometime after Cooler's defeat since Doore had revealed Gohan still had a weakness with it. Regaurding Goku, I accept the fact that he was merly waiting out his time to transform at the start of the Cooler battle and when Cooler transformed, Goku may have been more concerned on fighting in normal form to preserve energy until he really needed to go SSJ. Of course Goku was shown in the "Z Warriors Prepare" Trunks saga episodes to be training in his normal form, so he may have been seeing how far he could go with Cooler without going SSJ, until he really needed to like I said.

And like I said at the start, Icarus appeared twice in the Trunks saga as well and was even mentioned by Goten later in a 25th Budokai training episode. Toei can take movie elements from movies that don't fit and insert it into the anime timeline if they want, a variation of the Qausi SSJ in the Pikkon mini-saga for example when Goku was fighting the Ginyu Force in Hell.

[Mirai Trunks´s Nr. 1 fan]

He was entirly filler.

Calling the Broly movies filler makes no sense.

ALL the movies are filler, because Toriyama didn´t do a manga with thier plot so: filler.

[B-kun]

Actually, no, it's not filler. The Garlic Jr. arc is filler. The infamous driving episode is filler. The movies are simply anime stories, some of which happen to fit into the timeline.

[Dayspring]

Anything with Haiyaa Dragon can't take place. PERIOD. Where did such a ludicrous argument come from? We haven't had a disagreement on this topic ever since DBZ hit North America!

Here's why all the scenes, even those that occurred in the anime, can't take place: movie 3 assumes that everybody who was killed by Nappa (and the saibaman) is alive and well. This movie can therefore not take place. To acknowledge that and claim that it's ok for a character who was introduced in that movie to exist makes no sense. It's like saying baby A wasn't born, but he still lives today.

[Mirai Trunks´s Nr. 1 fan]

Actually, no, it's not filler. The Garlic Jr. arc is filler. The infamous driving episode is filler. The movies are simply anime stories, some of which happen to fit into the timeline.

But then again what exactly is Filler? There´s a brief summary of it in the filler guide but it doesn´t quite answer my question, but just say you´re right, for now.

[Conan the SSJ]

Anything with Haiyaa Dragon can't take place. PERIOD. Where did such a ludicrous argument come from? We haven't had a disagreement on this topic ever since DBZ hit North America!

Here's why all the scenes, even those that occurred in the anime, can't take place: movie 3 assumes that everybody who was killed by Nappa (and the saibaman) is alive and well. This movie can therefore not take place. To acknowledge that and claim that it's ok for a character who was introduced in that movie to exist makes no sense. It's like saying baby A wasn't born, but he still lives today.

Sorry, but the Garlic Jr. saga, the first Trunks saga episode, and the Driving school episode are all part of the ANIME storyline, though not the manga, it's still on the anime timeline. What people keep forgetting is that the anime and manga are frankly two different stories, if there's gonna be people whining about why certain movies and scenes can't fit just because it can't in the manga, then just become manga purists and stop watching the damn anime in general. Rather anyone likes it or not: Movies 1, 5, 9, 13, the Garlic Jr. saga, Icarus's scenes in specific DBZ episodes, Fake Namek, Pikkon, and all of GT are part of the ANIME story which is quite different from the manga story on a large number of accounts. Think of the anime as an adaptation of Toriyama's work, kind of like what FUNi originally did with the first two seasons of DBZ. If you guys are gonna complaign that filler can't be in the anime story, then just read the freakin' manga plain and simple and leave the anime alone. I'm so tired of filler whiners that can't enjoy the show, hell I bet the episode where Kargo dies and the Trunks special just can't happen for the extreme anti-filler fans, as well as refering to ALL the movies and GT as mini extensions simply because Toriyama didn't work on them. Toriyama also only worked on the manga, he didn't really have anything to do with the anime other than literally story boarding the series in his manga for Toei to adapt it.

[Rocketman]

Here's why all the scenes, even those that occurred in the anime, can't take place: movie 3 assumes that everybody who was killed by Nappa (and the saibaman) is alive and well. This movie can therefore not take place. To acknowledge that and claim that it's ok for a character who was introduced in that movie to exist makes no sense. It's like saying baby A wasn't born, but he still lives today.

Freeza says he destroyed Planet Vegeta with the Death Wave.

The Bardock Special says he destroyed it with the Death Ball.

Therefore, Bardock does not exist.

[MyVisionity]

Just because Icarus shows up in those 3 movies doesn't mean those movies have to fit into the anime time-line. He can simply be pulled from movie 3 and put into the anime if they want. If the plots of those movies don't fit into the timeline, it doesn't mean they can't bring a supporting character from the movies into the series. Icarus still existed at one point in time in the Dragon World; that's enough to bring him to the main storyline, especially for filler.

I'll give that 4 and 5 can be left out, but if you're going to have Icarus in the anime you need to explain where he comes from and that's what movie 3 does. Therfore, to accept the Garlic Jr. Saga or Movie 5 as part of the time-line you MUST accept movie 3 as well, and it's obvious that it doesn't fit. So nothing with Icarus can fit (since he now his origins can't fit he can't fit and by default, what he's in can't fit).

It doesn't matter if his origins cannot fit into the main timeline. There's no need to explain where he comes from. The character himself existed at one point within the Dragonball universe; that's enough to cross him over to the series, especially for filler. And the Garlic Jr. Saga does not have to depend on movie 3 to fit into the anime storyline, just because of that one small player.

[Xyex]

But then again what exactly is Filler? There´s a brief summary of it in the filler guide but it doesn´t quite answer my question, but just say you´re right, for now.

Filler is Toei created material that didn't exist in the manga and that is inserted into the anime. Movies exist outside the anime and so are not filler.

Anything with Haiyaa Dragon can't take place. PERIOD. Where did such a ludicrous argument come from? We haven't had a disagreement on this topic ever since DBZ hit North America!

Here's why all the scenes, even those that occurred in the anime, can't take place: movie 3 assumes that everybody who was killed by Nappa (and the saibaman) is alive and well. This movie can therefore not take place. To acknowledge that and claim that it's ok for a character who was introduced in that movie to exist makes no sense. It's like saying baby A wasn't born, but he still lives today.

Thank-you! Someone around here still has common sense...

Sorry, but the Garlic Jr. saga, the first Trunks saga episode, and the Driving school episode are all part of the ANIME storyline, though not the manga, it's still on the anime timeline.

Filler. Toei does what it wants during filler. I don't care about the manga at this point. These episodes don't really contradict that manga, and the manga's not the point. The anime is the point. Icarus does not exist in the anime. His lack of presence in the manga is a non-factor, I don't care about that. His lack of presence in the ANIME is the point. HE DOESN'T EXIST outside of movies. His presence in those filler scenes is directly off of the Garlic Jr. Saga.

What people keep forgetting is that the anime and manga are frankly two different stories, if there's gonna be people whining about why certain movies and scenes can't fit just because it can't in the manga, then just become manga purists and stop watching the damn anime in general.

Again, I don't care about the manga. I've never read the damn thing. I watch the anime. And what YOU'RE forgetting is that the movies and the anime are two seperate entities. Completely different and unrelated stories. Yes, movies 9 and 13 CAN exist in the anime. Do they? No. They are movies. They are outside of the anime. (Well, 13 could be GT Ep 1 techincally speaking, but that's another matter.)

Rather anyone likes it or not: Movies 1, 5, 9, 13, the Garlic Jr. saga, Icarus's scenes in specific DBZ episodes, Fake Namek, Paikuhan, and all of GT are part of the ANIME story which is quite different from the manga story on a large number of accounts.

Filler is only problem with me when it contradicts the anime. Since I've never read the manga that's my main problem with it. Movie 1 cannot fit despite Toei's attempts to brainwash people that it does. Movie 5 cannot fit for all the previously mentioned reasons. 9 and 13 can, but still are not part of the anime as they are movies. GT isn't part of the anime because it contradicts with the anime as much, if not more, than Icarus does. Pikkon and Fake Namek ARE part of the anime because they don't contradict the anime.

Think of the anime as an adaptation of Toriyama's work, kind of like what FUNi originally did with the first two seasons of DBZ. If you guys are gonna complaign that filler can't be in the anime story, then just read the freakin' manga plain and simple and leave the anime alone. I'm so tired of filler whiners that can't enjoy the show, hell I bet the episode where Kargo dies and the Trunks special just can't happen for the extreme anti-filler fans, as well as refering to ALL the movies and GT as mini extensions simply because Toriyama didn't work on them. Toriyama also only worked on the manga, he didn't really have anything to do with the anime other than literally story boarding the series in his manga for Toei to adapt it.

I can't figure out where the HELL you got the impression I'm a manga purist or that I don't like / complain about filler. Hell, Pikkon is one of my favorite characters! And yes, I know, the anime is an adaptation of the manga. But what YOU seem to not realize is that the MOVIES are ADAPTATIONS of the anime. THEY ARE NOT PART OF IT. Geez. How hard is this to understand? And no, I do not refer to the Garlic Jr. Saga and GT as a mini-series simply because Toriyama didn't make them. I do that because THEY DON'T FIT into the anime. It's that simple. If they FIT then I wouldn't care. But they don't.

Freeza says he destroyed Planet Vegeta with the Death Wave.

The Bardock Special says he destroyed it with the Death Ball.

Therefore, Bardock does not exist.

Bardock Special = Cannon. Minor discrepancies exist within the canon. This is an attack name discrepancy, not a character appearing out of nowhere who's origins are a movie that can't happen.

It doesn't matter if his origins cannot fit into the main timeline. There's no need to explain where he comes from. The character himself existed at one point within the Dragonball universe; that's enough to cross him over to the series, especially for filler. And the Garlic Jr. Saga does not have to depend on movie 3 to fit into the anime storyline, just because of that one small player.

So then... I guess that means that Turles exists in the anime time line? And Jenemba, and Super 13, and Slug, and everyone else from the movies too? That's basicly just what you said.

[VegettoEX]

I'd like to remind everyone of a few things:

(1) Re-read the forum rules which you agreed to upon sign-up. More specifically, type properly or I'm going to ban you.

(2) If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, don't add to the conversation.

(3) A "cannon" is a large gun; "canon" is something with inarguable existence in a fictional world.

(4) The FUNimation name/spelling of "Icarus" is retardo .

(5) I'm all for argumentation for the furthering of explanations and understanding, but let's try and not over-over-analyze the incorporation of anime movie logic into normal (canon) continuity to the point of... well... retardo.

[MyVisionity]

It doesn't matter if his origins cannot fit into the main timeline. There's no need to explain where he comes from. The character himself existed at one point within the Dragonball universe; that's enough to cross him over to the series, especially for filler. And the Garlic Jr. Saga does not have to depend on movie 3 to fit into the anime storyline, just because of that one small player.

So then... I guess that means that Tullece exists in the anime time line? And Jenemba, and Super 13, and Slug, and everyone else from the movies too? That's basicly just what you said.

No, I'm saying that they exist in the Dragonball universe, and that they could cross over into the anime storyline. However, those characters bring too much of the plots of the movies with them, and it would create too much conflict with the main storyline. But Haiyaa Dragon is ok because he is such a small character that won't create any real conflict.

[Xyex]

It doesn't matter if his origins cannot fit into the main timeline. There's no need to explain where he comes from. The character himself existed at one point within the Dragonball universe; that's enough to cross him over to the series, especially for filler. And the Garlic Jr. Saga does not have to depend on movie 3 to fit into the anime storyline, just because of that one small player.

So then... I guess that means that Tullece exists in the anime time line? And Jenemba, and Super 13, and Slug, and everyone else from the movies too? That's basicly just what you said.

No, I'm saying that they exist in the Dragonball universe, and that they could cross over into the anime storyline. However, those characters bring too much of the plots of the movies with them, and it would create too much conflict with the main storyline. But Haiyaa Dragon is ok because he is such a small character that won't create any real conflict.

Icarus brings just as much of the story with him as any other movie character. Gohan only knows him because of movie three.

[tarsonis]

Xyex, I don't think I agree with referring to GT or Garlic Jr. as not being part of the anime. If they are animated episodes, then they are anime and are part of the dragonball universe. They are just not canonical.

The way I see it:

Canon = Anything in the anime that was also in the manga, but also includes the two TV specials since they were directly based upon events in the manga and anime and do not contradict or exist outside of the series.

Filler = Any episodes or scenes in the anime series that were not in the manga. Might contradict with other events in the series. Does not include the movies, since they are not part of the series, and are instead adaptations as you pointed out.

Feel free to dispute.