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[Fox666]

Do you mean durability? Endurance is usually linked to cardio.

My English no good.

Keep in mind that Goku said that his Genki-Dama had already lost half of its power, because Vegeta blasted him. But yeah, Vegeta wasn't half as strong in his normal form, he was ten times weaker! Obviously, there wasn't a great amount of thought put into thia stuff.

Yes, I know that. That would makes the Genki Dama over five times the power of Vegeta?

[dbgtFO]

Keep in mind that Goku said that his Genki-Dama had already lost half of its power, because Vegeta blasted him. But yeah, Vegeta wasn't half as strong in his normal form, he was ten times weaker! Obviously, there wasn't a great amount of thought put into thia stuff.

Yes, I know that. That would makes the Genki Dama over five times the power of Vegeta?

Or maybe Vegeta wasn't even at 180.000 to begin with
Let the flaming begin

[Senzu_Bean]

I mean, you've got characters in the early arcs, like Piccolo Daimao, getting "several times stronger," which kinda makes any pre-Raditz power level list almost impossibe to make, when you consider that Goku and Piccolo only had battle power ratings barely over 400, when they fought Raditz.

Battle powers aren't something to be created. You have those stated and that is it. Period!

This is really beginning to degenerate into a more traditional "pointless power levels" thread. And it makes me a sad panda.

What do you expected?

[Fox666]

Keep in mind that Goku said that his Genki-Dama had already lost half of its power, because Vegeta blasted him. But yeah, Vegeta wasn't half as strong in his normal form, he was ten times weaker! Obviously, there wasn't a great amount of thought put into thia stuff.

Yes, I know that. That would makes the Genki Dama over five times the power of Vegeta?

Or maybe Vegeta wasn't even at 180.000 to begin with
Let the flaming begin

I did not get the joke. =/


Vegeta clearly stated his power would be screwed because of the moon he created. Is this what you are refering to?

Vegeta was hit by the Genki Dama after the Oozaru transformation, so it makes no difference.

[dbgtFO]

Or maybe Vegeta wasn't even at 180.000 to begin with
Let the flaming begin

I did not get the joke. =/


Vegeta clearly stated his power would be screwed because of the moon he created. Is this what you are refering to?

Vegeta was hit by the Genki Dama after the Oozaru transformation, so it makes no difference.

It isn't a joke, it's a shout out to the people, who say, that transformations are based on the users Full Power no matter what, meaning, that even though Vegeta was severely weakened after creating the moon, his BP shot up to 180.000 anyways, which I personally don't believe in.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Or maybe Vegeta wasn't even at 180.000 to begin with
Let the flaming begin

I did not get the joke. =/


Vegeta clearly stated his power would be screwed because of the moon he created. Is this what you are refering to?

Vegeta was hit by the Genki Dama after the Oozaru transformation, so it makes no difference.

It isn't a joke, it's a shout out to the people, who say, that transformations are based on the users Full Power no matter what, meaning, that even though Vegeta was severely weakened after creating the moon, his BP shot up to 180.000 anyways, which I personally don't believe in.

Either way, if the full power Genki-Dama could supposedly beat Oozaru Vegeta, but a half-power Genki-Dama couldn't beat regular Vegeta, who was ten times weaker than he was as an Oozaru...

[dbgtFO]

It isn't a joke, it's a shout out to the people, who say, that transformations are based on the users Full Power no matter what, meaning, that even though Vegeta was severely weakened after creating the moon, his BP shot up to 180.000 anyways, which I personally don't believe in.

Either way, if the full power Genki-Dama could supposedly beat Oozaru Vegeta, but a half-power Genki-Dama couldn't beat regular Vegeta, who was ten times weaker than he was as an Oozaru...

When he transformed into an Oozasru his power went beyond his base limits and replenished its energy, meaning his base now has a Fight Power of 18.000, while his Oozaru form has a Fight Power of over 40.000 at least. But in my fanon it's under 50.000(46.660).

Goku creates his Genkidama to combat Oozaru Vegeta and thinks it's enough(My fanon 40.000)

When he turns back into base form his Fight Power, if a scouter picked it up would be measured at 18.000 as normally, but since reverting to base form drains your power significantly(making Goku and Gohan fall into sleep at different points in time) Vegeta's efficient Fight Power is below 18.000, meaning he has a Fight Power of 18.000, but he is only able to use a portion of it(My fanon 4666).

The Genkidama Goku gives to Krillin only contains about half of its original power(My fanon 20.000), but it should be enough to kill Vegeta(MF: who is only giving off a Fight Power of 4666 to the untrained senses, but 18.000 to the scouter).

The Genkidama hits Vegeta, but since the difference isn't that big(20.000 vs. 18.000) he is able to survive it, but is now completely weakened and not to mention humiliated.
That's how I see it anyways.
EDIT: And I agree with Duo, I don't want to see this thread locked or anything, I would actually like to have a proper discussion and see, where Fox666 is taking this, if there are anything more he/she would like to say about Fight Powers.
So for now I'll just stop arguing back and forth about small issues like Zarbon and Dodoria.
Besides this is Fox666's first thread, so I would be displeased, if I or anyone else wind up getting it locked prematurely, because that wouldn't be the best welcome to one of our newest members.

[Fox666]

I completely agree.


There is a myth in the fanbase which consists of weakened characters having a lower battle power.

I believe the origin of this myth is the battle beetween Freeza and Nail in the anime, which after Nail regenerate his arm, Freeza look at the scouter and says his battle power decreased.

But there is no such a thing in the manga.


If anyone checked a scouter during the battle against Oozaru Vegeta, it would say 180,000. Despite that Captain Ginyu would easily defeat him, because Vegeta wasted a lot of energy.

Based on that, I agree with you. Vegeta had 18,000. Even if he used a lot of energy to create the moon, his durability would that of a 18,000 being.


That said, I just can't imagine how strong was the Genki Dama that Goku created, if he believed that thing would defeat Oozaru Vegeta...


===//===//===


There was some stuff I still wanted to comment, but the discussion just got another route... I will post it later.

[rereboy]

I completely agree.


There is a myth in the fanbase which consists of weakened characters having a lower battle power.

I believe the origin of this myth is the battle beetween Freeza and Nail in the anime, which after Nail regenerate his arm, Freeza look at the scouter and says his battle power decreased.

But there is no such a thing in the manga.


If anyone checked a scouter during the battle against Oozaru Vegeta, it would say 180,000. Despite that Captain Ginyu would easily defeat him, because Vegeta wasted a lot of energy.

Based on that, I agree with you. Vegeta had 18,000. Even if he used a lot of energy to create the moon, his durability would that of a 18,000 being.


That said, I just can't imagine how strong was the Genki Dama that Goku created, if he believed that thing would defeat Oozaru Vegeta...


===//===//===


There was some stuff I still wanted to comment, but the discussion just got another route... I will post it later.

Gohan`s power, when Reacom broke his neck, went down to zero, even though he was still alive, as stated in the manga.

For me, this is enough evidence to believe that injuries and also energy loss (the case of Nail that you mentioned) decreases the character`s power level.

In the case of Gohan, the injury was so severe that he didn`t even register any value at the scouter (zero). According to what you are saying, Gohan should register his "normal" power level since he was still alive and only severely injured. Does that make sense? I don`t think so... And if severe injuries decrease the power level, then it only makes sense for normal injuries to also decrease the power level, just not by the same amount. Energy loss works pretty much the same way.

[Fox666]

Of course the scouter will register a different value if someone is unconscious, with the neck broken, paraplegic, or dead

[rereboy]

Of course the scouter will register a different value if someone is unconscious, with the neck broken, paraplegic, or dead

Then why not when he/she has for example a broken arm, or broken ribs, or hurtful bruises all over the body?

The only diference is the degree of the wound. If a severe wound affects the power level severely (as proven by Gohan on Namek), then a minor wound should have minor effects in the power level, but it would still have some effects in the power level.

Energy loss is similar. The more energy a fighter spents, the more his power level should decrease (as proven by Nail).

The idea that the power level remains contanstly at the same level despite of injuries and energy loss (no matter the degree of them) doesn`t make sense and there are at least two explicit cases in the manga that show us otherwise.

[Fox666]

So a man without an arm has a lower battle power? I guess no

Breaking your neck is something completely different

And energy is different from battle power...

[rereboy]

So a man without an arm has a lower battle power? I guess no

Breaking your neck is something completely different

If a man has just lost his arm, yes.

If he has lost it a decade ago (for example) and there is no open wound, then it shouldn`t be any different.

These are two drastically diferent situations.

And energy is different from battle power...

By all indications of the manga, battle power is simply a numerical way to represent just how much energy/ki an opponent has. The scouter detects it and gives a numerical reading of its greatness to the user.

[Fox666]

Nail energy decreased because the nameks regeneration costs energy, I don't really think that a wond decrease someone power. He will be in pain, but why would a punch of him be weaker?

By all indications of the manga, battle power is simply a numerical way to represent just how much energy/ki an opponent has. The scouter detects it and gives a numerical reading of its greatness to the user.

How can I say? Battle Power is the intensity of the energy, not the amount of energy.

I mean, even if someone is all injured and at the end of his Ki, that one still can concentrates enough for a punch at full strength.

[rereboy]

Because Ki/energy is a combination of mind, spirit and body. If one´s body is (being) injuried, the ki/energy suffers and decreases.

Nail`s regeneration cost him energy just like punching or shooting a ki blast cost energy. The only thing different is the amount of energy. The energy spent might be minimal and not even noticiable (on a scouter or otherwise) or it might be a huge drain of energy and be very noticiable (and everything in between). And to Nail, regenerating an arm, costs a significant amount of energy.

As for someone being all injured and at the end of his ki and still be able to concentrate enough for a punch at full strength, that doesn`t make sense.
Just look at the battle with Vegeta. Why do you think that Gohan was able to fight with him before turning Oozaru? Why do you think Yajirobe survived his multiple punches and attacks? Why do you think that when Vegeta tried to blow them all after being hit with the Genki Dama, he was unable to do so and everyone survived?
Because he was injured, he was tired, he had lost a ton of energy and as a result his battle power decrease dramatically and even Gohan was able to fight him, and Yajirobe was able to survive his punches. If he could attack at his full power (18.000), even for a second, at those moments, he would destroy Gohan (who had a maximum of 2.500 when Piccolo was killed and he used all his rage) and Yajirobe (who was even weaker).

[Senzu_Bean]

It is ridiculous to assume someone battle power doesn't decrease cause of injuries, fatigue, etc. After all battle power is only a way to numerical reproduce someone ki and if those numbers don't change due body's damage then we would be talking about infinite energy, something that only Artificial Humans possesses.

[p123]

Ah, this is a very interesting topic. One which I never really delved too deep into. Trying to dictate battle worn powers is the most complicated thing I have ever heard of.

I want to bring up a couple of things...


1) Freeza heavily damaged in his true form (50%) is still able to reach 100%. His damage seems to effect the ability to maintain his full power .

2) SSJ Goku. In base he couldn't even stand. Then in base later, he is flying no problem. Ki restoration? The transformation replenishing base with health? I think this might be a one time thing , as in your first transformation warrants the ki revivial. But that's debatable.

3) Gohan is implied to have used full power to kill Cell. Vegeta states he had a lot more on him , when he finished off Cell ( in comparison to Teen Gohan ). Prior he was stated to be at 50% of his power as well.




So what's the consensus around here? Transforming automatically replenishes your base everytime? You can reach full power for a brief period of time even if heavily injured?

[Senzu_Bean]

His damage seems to effect the ability to maintain his full power.

Freeza couldn't maintain his full power cause he wasn't used to his true self. Goku stated it himself.

And about Gohan being only at half power after Cell injured his arm we know ki isn't only a physical condition but a mental one too. Seeing how Gohan was acting all pussy in that scene he probably was physical a lot more than 50% and his mental state was actually what decreased his power so much.

[p123]

Good logic on Gohan. The Freeza bit I have to look over. I rememeber specifically Goku saying something like that.

It's at the part where Goku tells him, that's why you waited until now to transform, because there's only a couple minutes left.


You could be right, I can't rememeber exactly what made me feel that way.

[Bussani]

And about Gohan being only at half power after Cell injured his arm we know ki isn't only a physical condition but a mental one too. Seeing how Gohan was acting all pussy in that scene he probably was physical a lot more than 50% and his mental state was actually what decreased his power so much.

This is how I feel about it, too. Ki is "fighting spirit"--you can actually hinder your own ki by being depressed or pessimistic. Of course, pain and injuries are also going to have an affect on your focus and will to fight, so it makes sense for servere enough injuries to reduce your current battle power. That said, it isn't impossible for it to go back up if you can muster up some mental focus despite the pain. Sometimes, even when you're at the end of your rope and think you've used up all your ki, the right motivation might just be enough to stir up some more.