The Jinzoningen Chronology makes no sense.

[dbgtFO]

Yeah, you're right. He probably had a mother too but ate her for breakfast or something.

What if Cold gave birth the way Cell or Piccolo did?

But Cell and Piccolo are genderless, unlike King Cold. I don't think Freeza's race reproduce asexually (since that would contradict Freeza and King Cold clearly being referred to as male), but they obviously don't reproduce the Earthling way (since, as we can see, Freeza has no penis in his true form).

Or maybe it is as p123 says and Freeza basically inherits more of his mother's traits, compared his father's traits.
I mean, what's the point in having underwear, if you don't have a penis in your 3rd 2nd and 1st suppressions?
Or maybe it's just too embarrasing around his colleagues??

[Piccolo Daimao]

But Cell and Piccolo are genderless, unlike King Cold. I don't think Freeza's race reproduce asexually (since that would contradict Freeza and King Cold clearly being referred to as male), but they obviously don't reproduce the Earthling way (since, as we can see, Freeza has no penis in his true form).

Or maybe it is as p123 says and Freeza basically inherits more of his mother's traits, compared his father's traits.
I mean, what's the point in having underwear, if you don't have a penis in your 3rd 2nd and 1st suppressions?
Or maybe it's just too embarrasing around his colleagues??

I figure that he wore underwear because that was part of the uniform that he and all his henchmen wore. But I don't think that, because he inherited his mother's traits, he was born without a penis or something like that. Or did I read that the wrong way?

[dbgtFO]

Or did I read that the wrong way?

Unfortunately.. NO!!

[Piccolo Daimao]

Or did I read that the wrong way?

Unfortunately.. NO!!

Oh...my god.

[Bussani]

I can't tell you how many times I have had to argue , no Cold is in his true form because A/b/C reasons.

But isn't that just your opinion against theirs? It would make more sense to say, "This could be Cold's true form for all we know."

But Freeza calls King Cold his father, and King Cold calls Freeza his son.

And the Nameless Namekian is also known as "The Son of Kattatz".

But Cell and Piccolo are genderless, unlike King Cold. I don't think Freeza's race reproduce asexually (since that would contradict Freeza and King Cold clearly being referred to as male), but they obviously don't reproduce the Earthling way (since, as we can see, Freeza has no penis in his true form).

Isn't Piccolo referred to as male just as much? Well, I doubt either of them really are in Japanese, thanks to all those gender-neutral pronouns.

[p123]

At the end of the day nearly everything is an opinion. There are some things that are more likely with better logic, and others which are unlikely with terrible logic. If you want to be a prick sure you can hang on the unlikely , terrible logic side, but at the end of the day majority of non troll people will agree on one side. Not for every issue, but for a majority of issues. As if to say, if you had to put your life on the line to be right, nearly everyone would be on the same side.


I dunno, I don't see the Changelings (lol) as asexual. It is never suggested to be this way, so I'm not going to make assumptions. With Piccolo we are told that he is asexual. So I'm not going to assume Ginyu/Jeice/Burter/Guldo/Reecome are asexual for no apparent reason either. I don't like making assumptions any more than I have to, I think it's the best way.

[dbgtFO]

With Piccolo we are told that he is asexual.

When?
If you are referring to Dende claiming there aren't any women on Namek it's easily handwaved, as Dende not knowing shit.
There was that storm you know, which killed everyone, but Guru.
So in my personal fanon female Namekians existed, but Guru didn't tell his children about it, because he can't produce female offspring, only male, which would make such information unbearable for the horny Namekians
So by the time they meet Bulma, their sexual desires have been succesfully suppressed so much(mostly because there aren't any women around, so they can't have a special bond with their mothers ie. Oedipus Complex), that they are unable to feel anything, even though Bulma's "desireability level" was... yeah you guessed it

Over 8000!!!!!

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Ever think that Freeza simply takes after his mother? Could be a case without having to make things too deep you know? That's how I think of it.

Freeza only has one form. When we talk about him having forms, technically it's not true, as he only has suppressions. But I get the point obviously.

It's just that it's very confusing to some people, I can't tell you how many times I have had to argue , no Cold is in his true form because A/b/C reasons.

DevilsCorpse, excellent picture. Hell I never even noticed the size difference, Cold is a damn beast! Thanks for posting those and your right, nearly identical.

Well, that depends. We aren't told that Freeza actually has a brother in the manga, but Toriyama did DESIGN Coola after all, even if he isn't canon. Toriyama provided a design for a potential brother of Freeza, and since he has a fairly different design to Freeza, it hints to me that Coola would have taken after the mother if there is one.

BTW, you're being nitpicky over nothing. Freeza's different stages are "forms", he is still transforming regardless of which direction he is going (suppressing or powering up). I for one really wish Toriyama would have given more background information not seen in the series in the Daizenshuu, similar to how Oda, Kubo and Kishimoto do for their guidebooks. It would be nice to know what "form" Cold was in when he appeared, why it looked similar to Freeza's second form, etc. So many questions about Freeza, Buu, and many other controversies could have been answered had the man just given a bit more of a crap about his work. xD

Oh, and here is a link to a size chart I made for Freeza's family: http://the-devils-corpse.deviantart.com ... 2#/d2sk162 It is based on as many official comparisons as I could make between characters, like how tall Piccolo is to Goku and how big Freeza's second form is to Piccolo, etc. I included all forms we see for Freeza, Coola, Cold and Kurieza.

[Nazi Cola]

Holy cow. I would not want to mess with Cold. He's like... 20 feet tall.

[p123]

Cold is in his true form of course. Do you want me to break down the complete reasoning behind that? I thought we were on the same page with that? I don't mind though just let me know. Cold simply cannot be in a suppression. I will go further in detail if needed.


Freeza's forms IMO aren't technically transformations. He has no true transformations. He has suppressions. He has to TRANSFORM to get from one suppression to the next, but that doesn't mean it's a true transformation. Freeza only has one true form, the form he was born with. A transformation IMO is intended to exceed your true form. To go beyond your true form. Freeza does not possess such a form, so alas , he does not have transformations, he has suppressions, in which he has to transform from one to the next to the next and then finally to his true form.

[Kaboom]

So why can't Cold also be in a suppressive form? You neglected to explain that part.

[p123]

Using logic we can find what the likely/unlikely scenario is. We have a couple of statements on Cold's strength.


1) He and Suppressed Mecha Freeza are suggested to be rivals/equals.

2) Stated to be way weaker than 100% Organic Freeza.

3) Stated to be strong enough to help Mecha Freeza 100% against an opponent Mecha Freeza is having trouble dealing with.


So we know Freeza > King Cold


Logically, if King Cold was also in his second suppression

Freeza 2nd Suppression > Cold 2nd Suppression


Seeing as how Piccolo was suggested to be a match for Freeza's 2nd form, and is implied to be even stronger now, as well as Vegeta who is well beyond Freeza's 2nd suppression on Namek, also stated to be stronger now, there is no way for Piccolo/Vegeta to fear a power weaker than Freeza's 2nd suppression.


We never see Cold power up. Logically he must be at full power. Always assume full power unless contradicted.


And alas, Cold is in his true form, way weaker than Organic Freeza, yet still strong enough to help out Mecha Freeza in a fight. Logically he is somewhere around 50-75% of Organic Freeza or so.

[CODii]

I'm confused. Doesn't Freeza mention in passing his father AND mother during the fight on Namek?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Cold is in his true form of course. Do you want me to break down the complete reasoning behind that? I thought we were on the same page with that? I don't mind though just let me know. Cold simply cannot be in a suppression. I will go further in detail if needed.


Freeza's forms IMO aren't technically transformations. He has no true transformations. He has suppressions. He has to TRANSFORM to get from one suppression to the next, but that doesn't mean it's a true transformation. Freeza only has one true form, the form he was born with. A transformation IMO is intended to exceed your true form. To go beyond your true form. Freeza does not possess such a form, so alas , he does not have transformations, he has suppressions, in which he has to transform from one to the next to the next and then finally to his true form.

I need no breaking down of anything. I personally don't believe he is in his true form, but I also have no problem accepting the opposing view if it were to ever be confirmed.

That's your opinion, which you state, though that doesn't necessarily make you right. The whole definition supports my side, but #3 helps the most. Nothing ever says that a transformation has to make you stronger, that is simply a potential side effect.

Transformation–noun
1.the act or process of transforming.
2.the state of being transformed.
3.change in form, appearance, nature, or character.

Using logic we can find what the likely/unlikely scenario is. We have a couple of statements on Cold's strength.

1) He and Suppressed Mecha Freeza are suggested to be rivals/equals.
2) Stated to be way weaker than 100% Organic Freeza.
3) Stated to be strong enough to help Mecha Freeza 100% against an opponent Mecha Freeza is having trouble dealing with.
So we know Freeza > King Cold

Logically, if King Cold was also in his second suppression
Freeza 2nd Suppression > Cold 2nd Suppression

Seeing as how Piccolo was suggested to be a match for Freeza's 2nd form, and is implied to be even stronger now, as well as Vegeta who is well beyond Freeza's 2nd suppression on Namek, also stated to be stronger now, there is no way for Piccolo/Vegeta to fear a power weaker than Freeza's 2nd suppression. We never see Cold power up. Logically he must be at full power. Always assume full power unless contradicted. And alas, Cold is in his true form, way weaker than Organic Freeza, yet still strong enough to help out Mecha Freeza in a fight. Logically he is somewhere around 50-75% of Organic Freeza or so.

First, I just have to sat this...you really need to condense your posts to a better format. It is hell trying to reply to anything you type. Anyway...

I remember no statement about Cold being "way weaker" than Freeza while he was organic. The original version of the manga states that Cold is just another "impossibly large ki", and the Daizenshuu states that he is slightly inferior to Freeza (though makes no mention of which Freeza he is being compared to). Freeza himself is stated to have powered up after having undergone his cybernetic enhancements, and his attitude implies that he thinks he can kill Goku on his own and Cold is only there just in case he needs help.

You assume the suppressions work the same for all characters, when we have next to no information. Maybe Cold only has one suppression and it limits his power similar to 25% Freeza on Namek, while once he transforms to his true form, he has a power close to 75% power Freeza. Both of which would still be leagues above Vegeta and Piccolo by that point.

As you should know, someone much weaker can still help out in a fight with much stronger fighters. Jheese was able to help Captain Ginyu catch Goku, despite the large gap in power. This doesn't even add in the fact that both Cold and Freeza are extremely arrogant, and Freeza had already fought Goku so he thought he knew what to expect. Cold had no idea what he was getting into and both of them could have just assumed that Cold's supressed form would be more than enough to help if Freeza were in trouble. A simple distraction is all it would take to help turn the tide in battle, but too bad for him, he ended up fighting Trunks who was much more cutthroat in his quick execution actions. And after Cold watched Trunks easily cut down his son, who was stronger than him, what is the point in transforming after that?

[p123]

Of course if you start making baseless assumptions that Cold's suppressions work completely different from Freeza's sure. But like I said, it's unlikely that complicated.


Cold ~ Suppressed Mecha Freeza

The statements made about Suppressed Mecha Freeza's power are statements about Cold's power. Cold never is suggested to have anymore power, so he is assumed at full power.

I think you understood my transformation/suppression POV. You get what I mean.

If Cold had anymore power or any transformations he would have used them after Freeza's death.


Freeza never powers up against Trunks.

[CODii]

P123 seems to have stated his case quite well. I think the most important thing is that unless we are told specifically that they are not, we should assume a character is in their pure form. If we go by the logic that something is possible because we are not specifically told it is not possible, I could make the case that #17 for instance works a lot like Optimus Prime and is able to transform into a semi truck. After all the manga never specifically states that #17 cannot transform into a truck.

Relating to my earlier post and the question of Freeza's reproduction I went back and checked. At the beginning of chapter 310 Freeza says he is impressed with Goku because Goku is the first person to actually get a speck of dust on him besides his parents. That's plural, as in more than one. That means asexual reproduction is out of the question.

[p123]

Thank you ... Yes I believe there is a sort of normal logic that should be applied.

We should assume they are in their true form, and they are using full power. If they aren't, we will be notified.

The other guy brought up that the Japanese translations and the Japanese in general don't use plurals? Since I don't know Japanese, I am in no place to counter that.


But in the Viz Manga, Freeza defintley says parents.


But actually, now that I think of it, if Freeza's father was asexual, Freeza would never say parent. He would say father. So seeing how that logic applies to the statement, logically parent is intended as plural, and logically two parents equals a man and woman. It's never suggested otherwise, and that would be the standard POV, so it stands.

[Bussani]

If you want to be a prick sure you can hang on the unlikely , terrible logic side

Why is someone being a prick if their opinion goes against your logic?

[p123]

Because I'm not an idiot. I can see when there are issues that are debatable. And then theres others were the issue isn't debatable when the person is argueing just to argue and doing so just to be a prick. Generally these are POVs that no one would ever bet any monetary value on, and in a do or die situation would never pick that side. So if the stakes were high, this wouldn't even make it on the options list. So it's trolling in a sense. A very strict sense of course.

[Bussani]

Everyone's going to seem like a troll if you measure everything with your own stick, so to speak. You're deciding what's logical; you're deciding what's debatable. You have to understand that not everyone interprets everything the same way, and not everyone places the same level of importance on the same implications. It seems pretty crazy to me to assume that people didn't follow their own logic to come to their own conclusions.

Oh, but I still don't get the whole prick thing. I understand thinking they're illogical, but they're not hurting you, are they?