deleted

[Fox666]

Because Ki/energy is a combination of mind, spirit and body. If one´s body is (being) injuried, the ki/energy suffers and decreases.

Nail`s regeneration cost him energy just like punching or shooting a ki blast cost energy. The only thing different is the amount of energy. The energy spent might be minimal and not even noticiable (on a scouter or otherwise) or it might be a huge drain of energy and be very noticiable (and everything in between). And to Nail, regenerating an arm, costs a significant amount of energy.

As for someone being all injured and at the end of his ki and still be able to concentrate enough for a punch at full strength, that doesn`t make sense.
Just look at the battle with Vegeta. Why do you think that Gohan was able to fight with him before turning Oozaru? Why do you think Yajirobe survived his multiple punches and attacks? Why do you think that when Vegeta tried to blow them all after being hit with the Genki Dama, he was unable to do so and everyone survived?
Because he was injured, he was tired, he had lost a ton of energy and as a result his battle power decrease dramatically and even Gohan was able to fight him, and Yajirobe was able to survive his punches. If he could attack at his full power (18.000), even for a second, at those moments, he would destroy Gohan (who had a maximum of 2.500 when Piccolo was killed and he used all his rage) and Yajirobe (who was even weaker).

That's alll because Vegeta was exausted. He is unable of fighting at full, like someone would in real life.

But that's something different from saying that he has a lower battle power, even if it has some similar effects.

[Kendamu]

Going further into the ki perspective, most Dragonball characters develop their mind and body to enhance the spirit similar to how full-contact Karate guys do it in real life so they can do things like fight 100 people in a row! If bettering the mind and body brings about stronger ki, then being injured would bring it down as they're so inter-related.

[p123]

So wait, SSJ Vegeta battle worn has the same exact ki as SSJ Vegeta full power? That's a bit ridicolous don't you think? Battle power goes down with injury/exhaustion etc. Could Vegeta perhaps rage out and access his full power again for an instant? Perhaps, but under normal situations SSJ Vegeta at full health with beat a battle worn injured SSJ Vegeta easily.

[astrallite]

The failure of karate in being a useful combat system resulted in Kyokushin and Dutch Kickboxing. Watching that video was pretty painful. Everyone of those matches could have been finished with a left hook.

[p123]

Yea it was pretty embarassing to see that most of those Traditional Martial Arts were garbage in terms of real fighting. Spending all those years , thinking your a kung fu master, and then getting knocked out by nearly anyone with any boxing experience must be painful to one's ego/pride/etc.

[Kendamu]

The failure of karate in being a useful combat system resulted in Kyokushin and Dutch Kickboxing. Watching that video was pretty painful. Everyone of those matches could have been finished with a left hook.

The video I linked to IS Kyokushin. They have rules against punching to the face Just like almost every other full-contact style spasmed from it.

Also, about Vegeta, What I said was just the opposite. His ki would go down from injury the same way it goes up from bettering himself or healing up.

[astrallite]

My mistake. Kyukushin and Dutch Kickboxing were two different evolutions of karate to counter Muay Thai, because the Japanese were getting their rear ends handed to them in sparring tournaments. Although the latter was more of an evolution for the sporting side rather than dojo exhibitions. And by evolution, I mean copying muay thai techniques and calling it karate like it was their idea to start with.

Kind of like Brazilians took judo, called it BJJ, and consider themselves the pioneers of submission grappling.

[p123]

Judo actually started from Jui Jitsu as well. Japanese Jui Jitsu is the first form in that era. Then Judo kind of split from Jui Jitsu, but they were still of the same chain more or less.

[astrallite]

What I am saying is...every submission that the Gracie's claim they invented with BJJ...already existed in judo. The only thing they did was bring submission techniques to the American audience when the submissions already existed in K-1 Heroes and Pride Fighting Championships in the form of Judo in Japan.

[p123]

No they originated from JuiJitsu. The Japanese version. Which were modified. Judo was essentially the same thing. They had minor differences at the time. BJJ is created really from JJJ. Judo was just one of the variations , that got popular. So BJJ is just a modified for the street version of Judo/Juijitsu, which were virtually the same thing during that time. This is around the Teddy Roosevelt era.

[dbgtFO]

Yo guys! How about we get back on topic eh?

That's alll because Vegeta was exausted. He is unable of fighting at full, like someone would in real life.

But that's something different from saying that he has a lower battle power, even if it has some similar effects.

Yeah, like I said in my previos post on page 9, Vegeta was exhausted after reverting back to "human" form.
The power of his human form is the same, as it was before he transformed, though, but he can't use it, due to the energy cost reverting back to human form causes(prior examples being Goku and Gohan falling asleep, as soon, as they revert).
In my mind it's a combination of his mental state and his bodily limits ie. his body has used up so much energy, that it needs to relax, which also deterioates his mental state(since his mind wants him to sleep/relax etc.), making it hard for him to even fight back against Gohan, even though a scouter would measure his power, as 18.000.

He just can't use it, due to the immense strain he puts on his body just to stay awake in the first place.

Compare it to Vegeta's "power nap" on Namek.

Many people are of the opinion, that Vegeta received a "near death power up", but how could he be able to, when he was already fully healed, by the senzu bean?

Rocketman posted on page 4 of this topic, that the nap didn't make him stronger, it simply allowed him to relax his mind, since he had been staying awake 6 days in a row(or something like that), so when he faced Freeza his mind now having had the chance to relax didn't restrict him from using his full power against Freeza(3rd suppression) and he was able to fight at his best. I have to say, that I agree with that POV, since it makes sense to me.

This all goes back to Rereboy's and Bussani's explanations of ki consisting of body and mind, which I believe Toriyama also confirmed in the SEG: Story volume interview about the secrets of winning a battle.

That is personally how I explain the ½ powered Genkidama not killing Vegeta.

[Fox666]

If we go by Vegeta's nap thing, you know what it means?



OMG!

[dbgtFO]

If we go by Vegeta's nap thing, you know what it means? *Snip*
[url=OMG!

And against Freeza it was even higher!!

[Fox666]

But Vegeta can control his Ki... =/

His "base" power level should be much lower than what he used against Freeza

[dbgtFO]

But Vegeta can control his Ki... =/

His "base" power level should be much lower than what he used against Freeza

So you don't agree with Vegeta's physical and mental condition restricting him from using his full power?
And that the nap made him stronger?

[p123]

I've always took it as Vegeta had a continous zenkai. That he like Gohan/Kuririn just kept growing in power from one step to the next. Vegeta does say he keeps growing in power, and he is getting stronger, and will be a SSJ soon. I don't think he calculated extra zenkais in that statement.


But this idea that your saying DBGTFO is very interesting, and plausible. That would certainly explain Gohan's 50% and then full power usage against SPC.

[Fox666]

But Vegeta can control his Ki... =/

His "base" power level should be much lower than what he used against Freeza

So you don't agree with Vegeta's physical and mental condition restricting him from using his full power?
And that the nap made him stronger?

Now I became too confused to continue this discussion. Sorry.

That would certainly explain Gohan's 50% and then full power usage against SPC.

Hmm, I think I don't know which story you are talking about. Can you explain me the "Gohan 50%" thing?

[p123]

Gohan says he lost half his ki from SPC . Then in the Buu Saga, Vegeta implies that the peak of his power was when he finished Cell.

[astrallite]

Maybe he means half his pool of ki, and this he has only half of his stamina? As opposed to literally only being able to fire a 50% kamehameha. Because at half his Ki he wouldn't be any stronger than Goku (or maybe that's why his phantom image appeared...)

[Bussani]

Maybe he means half his pool of ki, and this he has only half of his stamina? As opposed to literally only being able to fire a 50% kamehameha. Because at half his Ki he wouldn't be any stronger than Goku (or maybe that's why his phantom image appeared...)

That's one way of interpreting it. It's either that or what's already been said--that he only thought he'd lost half of his power due to his state of mind, and that he was actually still able to bring out his full power when Goku got him all motivated. Hell, even then he's still holding back until Goku gives him another push. I sometimes think Gohan's his own worst enemy.