How Would You Improve GT? 2.0

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Chou Gohan is damn Chou Gohan.

'Chou' Gohan is actually Ultimate Gohan.

And 'Ultimate' Gohan is actually Mightiest Warrior Gohan.

This is one of those things where we will never have a uniform term for the form in the fandom with all the different official and fan terms, though its not at bad as Fat/Innocent/Evil/Pure Evil/Super/Kid/Pure Majin Buu. So what does it really matter as long as we understand what he means?

[p123]

Yes, I generally call him Ultimate Gohan , I actually prefer that name. Hey what's all this correcting about ? We all know who we are talking about, using the exact names are not neccessary IMO. a lot of times I feel Funi > Viz in terms of name, true to manga or not. But that's a moot point, we all know who we are referring to, which is the important thing.

I prefer the Funi, VideoGame names generally. They are just more logical, as funny as it sounds. Perhaps the only thing they did right...

Vegetto > Vegerot

Bardock > Burdock

Krillin > Kuririn

And the list goes on and on...

Also the Buu names are much better

Good Buu/ Fat Buu / Super Buu / Buutenks/ Buuhan/ Buff Buu/ Buucollo / Kid Buu are all far better than their counterparts IMO. Perhaps the only one I dislike is Kid Buu, I would prefer flat out Majin Buu but eh no big deal, he is a friggen twerp ain't he?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

And 'Ultimate' Gohan is actually Mightiest Warrior Gohan.

"Ultimate Gohan" is actually used in the Japanese versions of the video games, so it's also an official name.

[Attitudefan]

Also, Goku shouldn't be that wierd tan colour, he should be "pinkish" like everybody else in the show.

I always thought he got a tan because he trained with Oob in Oob´s home country.

hmm, possibly... more like inside your fanon things

[Ussj Future Trunks]

P123 - Vegeta WAS a cool humbled guy yet still badass. He DID get development. 1. Taking Goku's place as Earth's protector. 2. Achieving SSJ4 and finally catching up to his rival. 3. Relationship with Bra shows how having a family made Vegeta the nicer guy he is now.

Well Uub came out of nowhere, and DBZ just isn't about character development. Uub was just too late in for GT to make me care about that guy. Plus I would be pissed as a fan if this "mere human" came in and made the Saiyans look weak. Thats probably why they made him kinda useless. No one would really like it, me included, if he randomly became the hero instead of Goku and Vegeta and Trunks and Pan. Speaking of Pan, why the hate? She's a kid. Kids are rebellious and whiny and annoying. Doesn't mean they deserve to get murdered by Bojack or something. What great fathers you'll make. OMG a kid being annoying. How dare she? DIE!

And you know how DBZ rolls. If your name doesn't start with Go, you won't kill a main villain. Plus Vegeta got plenty of kill assists. Without him, they would be dead.

[Godo]

Well Uub came out of nowhere, and DBZ just isn't about character development. Uub was just too late in for GT to make me care about that guy. Plus I would be pissed as a fan if this "mere human" came in and made the Saiyans look weak. Thats probably why they made him kinda useless. No one would really like it, me included, if he randomly became the hero instead of Goku and Vegeta and Trunks and Pan.

Oob being strong doesn't mean that he makes the Saiya-jins look weak, just like Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan didn't make SSJ3 Goku to look weak. That's a failing point you've got there.
Vegeta wasn't the main hero nor the main character in the Androids Arc, but he still got the privilege to defeat 19, and he didn't make the others look weak either. In fact, his contribution made the others look very strong, especially with the notion that Piccolo was around the SSJ level, and Goku in Vegeta's leauge.
Gotenks and Gohan also gave Super Buu a run for his money, as did Vegetto. That's how a story should be built. Everyone should get their share of glory. Hell, even Tenshinhan got to Kikoho Cell's ass once.

Speaking of Pan, why the hate? She's a kid. Kids are rebellious and whiny and annoying. Doesn't mean they deserve to get murdered by Bojack or something. What great fathers you'll make. OMG a kid being annoying. How dare she? DIE!

I have spoken with you about this once before (and I got called a kid hater -_-'). Kids don't have to be whiny and annoying. Kids can be well behaved and humble. Gohan was very well behaved as a kid, even though he went through hell.
Goten and Trunks, even though they were unruly kids, had discipline enough to come to respect their superiors and elders (not taking Gotenks into account here). They had rolemodels and looked up to Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan.
Pan, on the other hand, didn't respect neither Goku nor Goten, and she had quite the ADD temper. She didn't listen to anyone, did certainly not mature into a young woman (as some have said) (she was ten).
Only after being whipped and mentally spanked by horrifying battles where she learned that attitude doesn't get you anywhere, she calmed down a bit.
She was a spoiled and annoying brat, and I don't blame fans who wish death upon her. (To add, Pan is after all a fictional character, a couple of lines drawn on a sheet. Hating Pan is kinda like hating Jerry [Tom & Jerry] and hoping that he dies a slow and horrible death).

And you know how DBZ rolls. If your name doesn't start with Go, you won't kill a main villain. Plus Vegeta got plenty of kill assists. Without him, they would be dead.

Except for that DBGT took the Lazy Route and made Goku and Vegeta the only force that could do anything. And oh, also Oob once.
In DBZ, other fighters had their share of fighting against the main villain at least. I mean, fighting and shining for a bit.

[Sun-Wukong]

I would leave it as is, but with one more episode at the very end that shows Goku at Toei headquarters pitching the idea for the entire series to them before being told to leave and never come back.

That would be funny.

"I- I'm sorry. Did a monkey write this?"

"No.

...part of it."

"Get out."

[p123]

Agreed. You guys did a better job of explaining the issue. It's not about the Vegeta beating major villians, it's about the other characters other than Goku being able to at least do something. Goku hogs the show too much.


And the whole Goku I don't care how strong you are I will find a way to win seemed anti Goku DBZ. Goku is very well aware of his inability to fight many characters, and his need to find other people to do so. Goku admits he is completely inferior to Semi Cell/ Perfect Cell/ Super Buu / Buutenks etc.

Goku is not this crazy I will beat you guy you know? If anything I would see Goku being more amazed and more complimentary of a villians ridicolous power than making idle threats.

[Rocketman]

Taking Goku's place as Earth's protector.

When? When base Goten was able to move so fast he couldn't see him? When Super 17 beat him down effortlessly? When Omega Shenron beat him down effortlessly? When the series ended and Toei wouldn't have to draw him actually succeeding at anything and also there is nobody left in the whole universe who could be a threat?

[Zephyr]

I would say keep the Super 17 saga largely as is, though make it be one of Goku's nightmares. It doesn't need to make any sense because its a dream. One problem solved.

[p123]

That would work. Super 17 being anything better than Cell is unrealistic IMO. I feel they got lazy with that.

The mutant machines was an ingenious idea. Dragons another great idea that makes sense. Mutant Machines makes sense too. These are great. I know Super 17 incorporates that idea, but cmon you can do better than this.

Also they had the gates of hell opening, they could have used anything! Some crazy villian from the past who is ridicolous or something. I mean cmon, you can use any villian since hell was created. And you choose Android 17's clone? Meh, Cmon!

[Ussj Future Trunks]

Kids don't have to be whiny and annoying.

No but some are. Pan is just a kid who grew up around guys like Mr Satan and she clearly shows her heroic side once things got serious. And she CLEARLY loved and respected her family Post Black Star Saga. Again its called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. You go on and on about how spoiled and arrogant Pan was. Well what about the Saiyans in general pre-Goku's birth? Didn't respect anything except a higher power level.

Hating Pan is kinda like hating Jerry [Tom & Jerry] and hoping that he dies a slow and horrible death).

It's still sadistic and sad that you'd wish the death of a fictional character merely because she got raised to be spoiled and arrogant. Simba anyone? Simba as a kid is just that very same snobby disrespectfull spoiled little prince, but look at Adult Simba and End of GT Pan. Its growing and changing for the better. Like any great character.

Except for that DBGT took the Lazy Route and made Goku and Vegeta the only force that could do anything

To the main villains. Which is a crucial point because look at this. GT is barely as long as say, King Piccolo/Junior Saga. And who was the only one besides maybe Yajirobe who could even touch Piccolo and his demons? Goku. ONLY Goku. DBZ had the massive advantage of being ultra long. They had the time to give more characters a good fight. GT is centred around Goku but thats because theres no sidestories or unimportant defeats of weak henchmen. 19s defeat is lessened when he was no problem for healthy Goku and Piccolo. It's like hating Superman comics for having Superman beat the bad guy and no one else. Goku's the man. He's the hero, the poster boy, the big cheese, the greatest warrior in the universe. And if you remember the movies, its the same. Toei are big fans of Goku, but at the same time, they gave major time spent with Pan, Trunks, Giru and Vegeta. Even for such a short series.

it's about the other characters other than Goku being able to at least do something

You just ignored my first post in the thread didn't you. Goku is not the only character in GT, even if he does land the final blow to the three main enemies. But he wouldn't have been able to even do anything to Baby without the others helping him.

[Godo]

No but some are. Pan is just a kid who grew up around guys like Mr Satan and she clearly shows her heroic side once things got serious. And she CLEARLY loved and respected her family Post Black Star Saga. Again its called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. You go on and on about how spoiled and arrogant Pan was. Well what about the Saiyans in general pre-Goku's birth? Didn't respect anything except a higher power level.

Which is why people hate her. Because of her really unlikeable personality. And that it the a whole saga for her to even start to respect her family. And that her "CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT" isn't as great as you imagining it to be.
There is no need to make her sound better than she is. She is an awful character, that's it.
And I do dislike pre-Goku Saiya-jins, and almost every villain there was. Pan just happens to be on the good guys' side. That doesn't mean that you'll have to like her.

It's still sadistic and sad that you'd wish the death of a fictional character merely because she got raised to be spoiled and arrogant. Simba anyone? Simba as a kid is just that very same snobby disrespectfull spoiled little prince, but look at Adult Simba and End of GT Pan. Its growing and changing for the better. Like any great character.

You clearly didn't compare end of GT Pan with Adult Simba, now did you? Are you for real?
Adult Simba went to be a king, he realized his place in the circle of life and and almost singlehandedly destroyed the evil that had lurked itself into the Lion Rock during his absence.
Pan didn't do anything major but whining and crying a bit. End of GT Pan could be compared to Timon maybe, but that's still going overboard with praise.
Adult Simba is more like Gohan when he went SSJ2 and left his pacifist lifestyle for a moment.

To the main villains. Which is a crucial point because look at this. GT is barely as long as say, King Piccolo/Junior Saga. And who was the only one besides maybe Yajirobe who could even touch Piccolo and his demons? Goku. ONLY Goku. DBZ had the massive advantage of being ultra long. They had the time to give more characters a good fight. GT is centred around Goku but thats because theres no sidestories or unimportant defeats of weak henchmen. 19s defeat is lessened when he was no problem for healthy Goku and Piccolo. It's like hating Superman comics for having Superman beat the bad guy and no one else. Goku's the man. He's the hero, the poster boy, the big cheese, the greatest warrior in the universe. And if you remember the movies, its the same. Toei are big fans of Goku, but at the same time, they gave major time spent with Pan, Trunks, Giru and Vegeta. Even for such a short series.

Let me make a quick list for you:

DB:
- Beginning: Kuririn defeats a tiger, becomes almost as strong as Goku.
- 21st Tenkaichi Budokai: Yamcha finishes the preliminaries. Kuririn gives Jackie Chun a run for his money. Goku fights Jackie Chun and wins.
- R&R Arc: Kuririn fights the Pirate Robot and manages to do as well as Goku. He then gives Blue some good hits, and is paralyzed. Goku comes in and knows about Blue's tricks and defeats him. Goku defeats the whole army by himself.
- 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai: Kuririn defeats Chao-zu, and finishes the preliminaries. Jackie Chun and Yamcha fight Tenshinhan and give a pretty good fight. Goku fights Tenshinhan and wins.
- Piccolo Daimao Arc: Tenshinhan learns the mafuba and fails, otherwise completely Goku dominated.
- 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai: Kuririn fights Piccolo impressively, although he fails. Tenshinhan has to push Goku into dropping his weights. Goku defeats Piccolo.

Action Summary: Kuririn, Goku, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Chao-zu and Jackie Chun get some action. (6 characters)

DBZ:
- Saiya-jin Arc: Goku and Piccolo defeat Raditz with some help of Gohan.
- Saiya-jin Arc 2: Nappa gets pretty much his ass kicked by everyone until Goku comes and saves the day. Goku also defeats Vegeta with the help of Gohan, Yajirobe and Kuririn.
- Arrival at Namek Arc: Vegeta defeats Dodoria and Zarbon. Goku and Kuririn defeat two of Freeza's henchmen.
- Ginyu Squad Arc: Vegeta defeats Guldo, gives Recoome a run for his money. Goku defeats the rest. Vegeta kills Jeice.
- Freeza Arc: Piccolo owns 2nd form Freeza, Gohan manages to push Freeza to transform into his 4th form, Goku defeats Freeza with the help of Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan.
- Androids Arc: Vegeta defeats 19, gives an impressive fight against 18
- Cell Arc: Gohan defeats the Cell Jrs. and defeats Cell
- Buu Arc: Vegeta defeats Pui Pui, Goku defeats Yakon. Gohan gives Dabra a run for his money. Vegeta almost defeats Fat Buu, Gotenks almost defeats Super Buu, Gohan almost defeats Super Buu.
Goku defeats Kid Buu with the help of Vegeta and everyone else.

Action Summary: Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Yajirobe, Piccolo, Gohan and Gotenks get some action. (7 characters)

DBGT:
- Black star DB Arc: Goku defeats everyone
- Baby Vegeta Arc: Vegeta fights Goten and the others, Goku defeats Baby Vegeta. Oob throws some fists?
- Android 17 Arc: Defeated by Goku and (18)?
- Shenron Arc: Goku defeats Omega Shenron, gets some energy from everyone else.

Action Summary: Goku and Vegeta and maybe also Oob and 18 get some action. (2-4 characters)


That is all.

You just ignored my first post in the thread didn't you. Goku is not the only character in GT, even if he does land the final blow to the three main enemies. But he wouldn't have been able to even do anything to Baby without the others helping him.

See my neat list above. Answers this question too.

[Rocketman]

In DB and Z, the non-Goku characters still got action-packed fights (Vegeta vs 18, Piccolo vs 17, Gotenks vs Buu, etc).

In GT, the non-Goku characters aren't allowed to budge the enemies. I don't think Vegeta even lands one hit on Gohan or base fucking Goten.

[Cipher]

DBGT:
- Black star DB Arc: Goku defeats everyone
- Baby Vegeta Arc: Vegeta fights Goten and the others, Goku defeats Baby Vegeta. Oob throws some fists?
- Android 17 Arc: Defeated by Goku and (18)?
- Shenron Arc: Goku defeats Omega Shenron, gets some energy from everyone else.

Action Summary: Goku and Vegeta and maybe also Oob and 18 get some action. (2-4 characters)


That is all.

See, I'm with you on some things, but it kind of kills your argument when you completely fucking ignore Zuunama, Luud, Mutchi-Mutchi, Nutt, Trunks and Giru planning Baby's deactivation, and countless other things during the first arc alone. Pan and Trunks play huge roles in the first arc; you can't just write that off because they don't ever deliver the final blow to a main villain, or by that logic, neither Bulma nor Yamcha are important characters in Dragon Ball. GT has a bit too much Goku love, no argument there. But it follows essentially the same formula as the series always has: side characters help out with minor enemies and put up a valiant struggle against the main villain before being cast aside. If it seems more egregious in GT, it's mostly (though I'll grant you not entirely) because it's so much more compact.

In GT, the non-Goku characters aren't allowed to budge the enemies. I don't think Vegeta even lands one hit on Gohan or base fucking Goten.

I'll agree that this is part of the problem. But you're still exaggerating. Sure, Vegeta gets wailed on by Gohan and Goten, and everyone is dropped against Super 17, but it's not nearly as consistent as you've made it sound. Goku, Trunks and Pan all get their share of solid hits in the Ultimate Dragon Balls arc, Uub has his fight against Baby, Pan plays important roles in defeating some of the Evil Dragons, Vegeta performs as well (or not well) as Goku in the final fight, etc. A problem, but not a show-breaking problem.

[p123]

Uub, the reincarnation of Majin Buu, gets a crappy fight with Baby in which the best thing he did was getting eaten is good enough for you? This is a guy Goku had been waiting for , for 10 years. I mean cmon you can't be serious. Uub get's no freaking love. It's Goku Goku Goku all day all night. It's too much.


Goku got more facetime in the small amount of episodes in GT than he did in all of DBZ. In DBZ Goku is the finisher, he's not the fulltime guy. Others are battling, and Goku comes and saves the day. In GT it's all Goku all the time.

[NeoKING]

Agreed. You guys did a better job of explaining the issue. It's not about the Vegeta beating major villians, it's about the other characters other than Goku being able to at least do something. Goku hogs the show too much.


And the whole Goku I don't care how strong you are I will find a way to win seemed anti Goku DBZ. Goku is very well aware of his inability to fight many characters, and his need to find other people to do so. Goku admits he is completely inferior to Semi Cell/ Perfect Cell/ Super Buu / Buutenks etc.

Goku is not this crazy I will beat you guy you know? If anything I would see Goku being more amazed and more complimentary of a villians ridicolous power than making idle threats.

Disagreed. Goku was that way in GT as well.

- In his first two fights with Baby Vegeta he conceded defeat when he knew he couldn't win no matter what.
- After Super 17 survived Goku's Kamikaze-waza, Goku gave up and was ready for S17 to send him to Hell(again).
- Not sure if this counts, but when being charged up by his family and friends to fight Yi Xing Long again(after being KO'd with Yi's 10-fold Kamehameha), although they're confident Goku can win no matter what, Goku himself says he's not sure he can and assures them that he'll try his best.

[p123]

Goku is ridicolously confident in GT. In DBZ he never acts like that at all. Goku in DBZ admits when he is inferior. Not this champion of justice overkill GT Goku.

[NeoKING]

Goku is ridicolously confident in GT. In DBZ he never acts like that at all. Goku in DBZ admits when he is inferior. Not this champion of justice overkill GT Goku.

So basically you didn't read anything I read? GT Goku was cocky with opponents he knew he could beat(M-Mutchy, Ledgic, Super Sigma Cannon, etc.) for obvious reasons. Would you get pumped up to bully someone weaker than you? But when he fought enemies he knew he had no chance against, did he continue to fight for justice? No. He gave up when he knew he was outmatched. Go watch GT and see for yourself.

[p123]

No I'm talking about the Baby Vegeta/Super 17/ Omega Shenron stuff.



Your so strong. But I don't care. I will beat you I will find a way. I am pure good. You are evil. Good always trumps evil. Even though I'm weak as shit. But I will win. You are no match for me Mr Evil Super Powerful Guy.


The fights in which he is clearly inferior, he has that kind of mentality. I didn't find it realisitc. Goku doesn't act that way in DB IMO.