Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

p123, judging from the general attitude inherent in your post, I'm not going to bother replying further or continue trying to "justify" my levels to you. Rather, I think I need to remind you that I am under no such obligation to bend my methods or opinions to fit with yours.

Yeah, I'll take friendly suggestions and feedback. So would anyone who posts in here (if they haven't all been scared off at this point). But you're the only one here in this thread, or on the entire forum, who's taking these Power Levels so damn seriously. So when you start labeling my ideas "silly" and "ridiculous" or "redonko" and actually try to give me minimum percentages as if you're the big Power Levels boss and you determine what is or isn't acceptable... that isn't cool.

This type of "debate" about Power Levels is not how this thread works, and I've tried to get that point across to you several times now. This thread isn't about "right or wrong," it's about creativity and fun, which is why it's in this FanWorks department. Shoot, I was thinking of revising and re-posting my old "Raditzes" list sometime in the near future.

But the way you're posting here... nobody's having fun. Except you, maybe, I dunno.

Harsh criticism and nitpicking, followed by dismissal if not met with conformation, is not welcome. You haven't gotten THAT bad yet in your posting, but I'm just warning you ahead of time. That type of shit ended with the death of MFG and I won't allow it to spread to this forum. If it's going to escalate to the point where you're judging a poster by his Power Level ratios, then keep it on GameFAQs.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

But isn't this translation wrong then?
Vegeta: "Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!!" as found on Kanzentai...

Heh, you're right. I got confused because of that V-Jump thing that describes Gohan as "over 2,800".

Either way, surely Gohan's rating wasn't exactly 2800. It was probably 2822 or something. Even the characters round the numbers, when it's anything more than 1500!

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think I'm ready to put up my battle power list now. I've finally got round to doing it. I haven't listed numbers for the minor characters and mainly the ones that actually fight. I've also contributed explanations for the ones that I thought needed more detail on why I chose them, apart from the BPs that were stated in the manga. I only did them for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs because I don't believe that was the only time they were important to the story and besides, it's far too hard to calculate a list post-Freeza arc that sits well with me. So, without further ado!


SAIYAN ARC

The Mysterious Alien Warrior

Raditz – 1,250

Nappa's line on the Saibaimen's strength is often translated as saying that they are "equal" to Raditz. While the verb hitteki suru can be translated as "equal", it doesn't mean equal in any sort of mathematical sense, but just that something is roughly on par with something else. In his memo to the anime staff published in the DragonBall Z Anime Special, Toriyama confirmed that the Saibaimen's battle power is inferior to Radtiz's, saying "But their battle power is considerably high, at a level slightly inferior to Raditz" (しかし戦闘力はかなり高くラディッツより少し劣る程度). Also, Nappa mentions that the Saibaimen rival Raditz "going just by power", so it seems that Raditz's greater intelligence gives him something of an edge over the Saibaimen, who are barely smart enough to follow simple orders.

(Also, Raditz’s power is still low enough that he’s able to be gravely injured by Gohan’s 1,307 headbutt, enough for broken-ribs Goku to hold him in a full-nelson.)

Farmer (suppressed) – 5
(full power)- 10,000

(He was suppressed at the time, and too shocked by the appearance of Raditz to raise his power.)

Piccolo – 322
(without weights)- 408
(Makankosappo)- 1,330
(2nd Makankosappo)- 1,007
(that shine)- 2,000

(Vegeta scolded Raditz for being killed by guys with battle powers slightly over 1,000 at the most. Since the only stated battle powers over 1,000 were Piccolo’s 1st Makankosappo and Gohan’s headbutt, the only BP that could’ve been slightly over 1,000 would’ve been Piccolo’s 2nd Makankosappo, the one that directly killed Raditz. Piccolo stated that he was only able to perform the attack one more time, implying that he had lost energy firing the first attack.)

Son Goku – 334
(without weights)- 416
(Kamehameha)- 924

Son Gohan – 1
(upset)- 710
(enraged)- 1,307

The Saiyans Arrive!!

Piccolo (suppressed)- 1,220
(full power)- 2,400

Doppleganger Piccolo - ain't got that shine

(Piccolo tells Gohan that if he puts his mind to it, his power surpasses his own. I doubt Piccolo was only saying that to encourage Gohan, since he had knowledge of Gohan’s hidden power and put the fate of his planet in his hands rather than himself. Gohan seemed to display this hidden power when he got angry and fired the Masenko, so an amount below 2,800 seems about right.)

Kuririn (suppressed)- 1,083
(full power)- 1,700

Son Gohan (suppressed)- 981
(full power)- 1,480
(Masenko)- 2,800

(Kuririn and Gohan were both “about 1,500” when they defeated Freeza’s goons. Since I don’t believe that image training increases your strength [it was mental training, like meditation, and wasn’t physical], their Namek BP would be the same as their Saiyan arc BPs. Kuririn was wearing weights at the time, so without them he’d be even stronger.)

Yamcha – 1,350
(dead)- 0

Tenshinhan – 1,850
(crying for Chaozu)- 50

(All of the Z-Warriors at this point [except Chaozu] are able to defeat the Saibaimen, who rivaled Raditz, without much trouble.]

Chaozu – 950

Saibaimen – 1,200

Nappa – 3,500

(Although the Saiyans apparently aren’t able to control their battle power [an ability the Saiyans were surprised at and Vegeta only said to be able to do once on Namek], Nappa “powers up” and surprises everyone, who didn’t expect his power to be this much. So I guess Nappa only brought his power to the surface…or something like that. This aspect of ki doesn’t seem to be explained very well in Dragon Ball. Anyway, he beats the crap out of everyone, but his power can’t be that far away from Gohan’s Masenko, which hurt his arm a little.)

A Fateful Super Decisive Battle!!

Son Goku (suppressed)- 5,000
(full power)- 8,012
(Kaiô-ken)- 16,024
(Kaiô-ken x3)- 24,036

(Vegeta read Goku’s power, as “over 8,000”, but it can’t be “over 8,000” to any significant amount, otherwise Vegeta would’ve said so. The Kaio-Ken multiplies the user’s battle power, meaning that Goku’s KKx3 would be over 24,000—enough to overwhelm Vegeta.)

Nappa (full power)- 7,500
Ghost Nappa - 150,000

(Once Nappa calmed down and began fighting at his full power, he was enough to give Goku trouble. He exchanged blows with Goku, with neither being able to hit one another. But Goku only barely deflected Nappa’s mouth blast and surprised that he took it head-on, thinking that the battle would take forever.)

Vegeta – 18,000
(Ôzaru)- 120,000

(Dodoria claims that before, Vegeta was barely 18,000. There’s nothing to suggest that Vegeta got any stronger than this. Vegeta says that transforming into an Ôzaru makes a Saiyan ten times stronger, but Goku’s KKx3 Kamehameha and his own artificial full moon weakened him, so it wouldn’t be the full 180,000. However, Goku claims that even a Kaio-Ken x5 wouldn’t work on Vegeta, so his power should be at least greater than 40,000.)



FREEZA ARC

Go For It! The Planet Namek

Vegeta – 24,000
(Zenkai)- 30,000

(Vegeta’s Zenkai makes him able to destroy Kiwi, Dodoria and Zarbon’s initial form, but he’s made short work of by Zarbon’s transformed state. After his second Zenkai, Vegeta counts on Zarbon coming at him off-guard and has to distract him by throwing dirt in his eyes before he can kill him, implying that he’s around Zarbon’s level of strength, but still not strong enough to kill him outright.)

Kiwi – 18,000
Orange - 15,000
Banana - 12,000
Pear - 9,000

(Vegeta’s rival Kiwi was equal to Vegeta, until he powered up and destroyed him.)

Son Gohan – 1,480

Kuririn – 1,510
(without weights)- 1,700

Namekians (suppressed)- 1,000
(full power)- 3,000

Dodoria – 20,500

Zarbon – 21,000
(transformed)- 28,500

The Terrible Ginyu Force

Gurd – 2,500

Kuririn – 11,000
(drawn-out power)- 25,000

Son Gohan – 13,000
(Zenkai + drawn-out power)- 27,000

(Both were stated to be over 10,000 in their fight with Gurd, and able to knock around Ginyu in Goku’s body, who’s only 23,000.)

Vegeta – 30,000

(Jheese said that Vegeta’s power had risen up close to 30,000, so I rounded up. He lands a few good blows on Reacoom, but it’s ultimately not enough to kill the durable monster.)

Reacoom – 45,000
(FUNi Retard)- 35,000
Butta – 44,000
Butta's butt - 55,000
Jheese – 44,500

(Kuririn said that Jheese and Butta had about the same amount of ki as Reacoom. I arranged them so Reacoom would be the strongest but the slowest, and Butta the weakest but the fastest, with Jheese in the middle. Knowing that Goku creamed all his troops, Ginyu pegs him at 60,000, which means that the Ginyu Force are below that.)

Son Goku (suppressed)- 5,000
(full power)- 90,000
(Kaiô-ken)- 180,000

(Goku’s regular Kaio-Ken took him up to 180,000, and since the Kaio-Ken multiplies battle power, 180,000 ÷ 2 = 90,000.)

Captain Ginyu – 90,000
(full power)- 120,000
(in Goku’s body)- 23,000

Frog Ginyu - 90,000,000

Nail – 42,000

Freeza’s Super Transformation!!

Freeza – 530,000
(2nd form)- 1,060,000
(powered up)- 1,200,000
(full power)- 1,500,000
(3rd form)- 2,120,000
(true form)- 3,180,000
(50%)- 60,000,000
(100%)- 120,000,000

(2nd-form Freeza said that if his strength were to be put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,0000. Once he transforms two more times, he’s able to beat the newly-fused Piccolo and Vegeta after his fourth Zenkai, but fights evenly with Goku. However, when he uses half of his full power, he can block Goku’s KKx20 Kamehameha with one hand and, at his full power, fight on even ground with Super Saiyan Goku.)

Vegeta – 500,000
(Zenkai)- 2,500,000
(crying)- lol

(After sleeping and regaining full control of his ki, Vegeta unlocked more of his power and is implied to rival Freeza, but still weaker since he was winded after their tussle. After receiving another Zenkai, Vegeta’s powered up enough that he’s confident he can beat Freeza. He could see Freeza’s blast coming towards Gohan, which not even Piccolo could see, proving that he’s stronger than Piccolo. He still gets pulverised by Freeza though.)

Son Gohan (enraged)- 1,000,000
(Zenkai)- 400,000
(Bakurikimaha)- 2,000,000

(An enraged Gohan’s attack was powerful enough to make Freeza hurt a little, and after his Zenkai, Vegeta said that things were looking better. And then third-form Freeza struggles with Gohan’s full-power Bakurikimaha, just managing to deflect it.)

Piccolo (merged with Nail)- 1,300,000
(full power)- 1,625,000

(Piccolo fights an even match with 2nd-form Freeza, and Vegeta says he’s even better.)

Son Goku – 3,000,000
(Kaiô-ken x10)- 30,000,000
(weakened, Kaiô-ken x20)- 48,000,000
(Kaiô-ken x20 + Kamehameha)- 58,000,000
(Super Saiyan)- 126,000,000

(Goku can fight evenly with Freeza in his true form. Once the galactic tyrant ups his game to 50% and smacks around Goku even with the Kaio-ken x20, a weakened Goku is forced to pull out his last resort—the Kaio-ken x20. But his Kamehameha doesn’t even shake Freeza, who blocked it with his hand, doing only light damage. Once he transforms into a Super Saiyan, he humiliates 50% Freeza and can even fight hand-to-hand with 100% Freeza, whose power drops as the battle goes on.)

NOTE: Although Goku’s Super Saiyan in this list appears to be a x42 multiplier, it’s not and simply happens to land there because it’s a good, even distance away from Freeza’s full power. I don’t believe that Super Saiyan is a constant, controlled multiplier, because it doesn’t go by the same rules as the Kaio-ken and multipliers go out of use past the Freeza arc.

[p123]

Will try to tone it down a bit. I spent countless hours on figuring out a common sense approach to this stuff. It just baffles me when people can't accept the most logical of opinions IMO of course, very frustrating. But I guess your right, I should just voice my opinion without the rudeness. I don't know why so rude lately? I think perhaps I sense an attitude from you as well, as if you are the Power Level Boss because of your experiences from MFG and how whatever logic I come up with, you will not even give the time of day because you have been there done that and can't be wrong. The kind of attitude that just won't ever change their POV because they think there better than everyone, because of their veteran status. I could be wrong, but I get those vibes from you. And I guess you get similar vibes from me. Hopefully airing these out we can come to a better consensus on how to debate things. But it appears we both look at each other as snobbish know it alls, which is going to effect the way we debate. But I shouldn't be rude, no need to throw fuel on the fire, and I doubt you intentionally are being that way anyhow, it may just be my perception being off, or something you do not notice your doing. Either way, let's call a truce, will keep the rudeness in check .


[quote="Piccolo Daimao"]I think I'm ready to put up my battle power list now. Finally got round to doing it. I haven't listed numbers for the minor characters and mainly the ones that actually fight. I've also contributed explanations for the ones that I thought needed more detail on why I chose them, apart from the BPs that were stated in the manga. I only did them for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs because I don't believe that was the only time they were important to the story and besides, it's far too hard to calculate a list post-Freeza arc that sits well with me. So, without further ado!


Very good work here man. I like this. Everything that I didn't comment on either I agree on, or agree that it is plausible.



SAIYAN ARC

[Kuririn (suppressed)- 1,083
(full power)- 1,700

Son Gohan (suppressed)- 981
(full power)- 1,480
(Masenko)- 2,800

Son Gohan – 1,480

Kuririn – 1,510
(without weights)- 1,700

I believe that Gohan/Kuririn initially on Namek are both said to be over 1,500. So you would have to up Gohan a bit. Also, Kuririn isn't suggested to be wearing weights, nor do I feel he is suggested to be not using his full power. IMO 1,500 is the tops Kuririn could possibly be against Nappa. You are so close to it, I question the need, to go extra lengths to explain yourself ( without weights ) instead of just adjusting both Gohan/Kuririn to 1500 against Nappa and initially on Namek. IMO that's the better way to do it.


(drawn-out power)- 25,000

I don't know. Kuririn is fighting directly evenly with Goku/Ginyu who is 23k. I would think 23k would be the best place for Kuririn here.

Son Gohan – 10,060

Gohan immediately after the power up is showered with praise from both Kuririn and Vegeta which implies clearly Gohan > Kuririn. Now since they are both still coupled together by the Ginyu Force we know the spacing isn't terribly far but I would suggest a bigger boost here. Perhaps Gohan at 11k - 12k range , just so you can take both statements into account evenly.

Freeza – 530,000
(2nd form)- 1,060,000
(powered up)- 1,200,000
(full power)- 1,500,000

Interesting note about 2nd form Freeza. He actually only powers up one time oddly enough. He is like hiding his ki instead of truly powering up , as in his first power up was at full power, yet he didn't let anyone in on that. Or something, hard to explain. Read between Power Up1 and Full Power 2nd Suppression, such an odd thing I have never really seen before. I think this may be similar to Initial Perfect Cell - Perfect Cell Suppressed issue. Although just not as dramatic of an increase as Cell. Found it interesting though, check it out if your not familiar with it, cool trivia kind of thing.
(3rd form)- 2,120,000
(true form)- 3,180,000
(50%)- 60,000,000
(100%)- 120,000,000

Son Goku – 3,000,000
(Kaiô-ken x10)- 30,000,000
(weakened, Kaiô-ken x20)- 48,000,000
(Kaiô-ken x20 + Kamehameha)- 58,000,000
(Super Saiyan)- 126,000,000


I like this. Keeping Goku/Freeza close is a must for me. Generally I keep the 150 number and adjust Freeza up, but I have been thinking about adjusting Goku down to the 120 number. I disagree with varying boosts, but it's nice to see this. I think I will post my Freeza Saga numbers as well.

[p123]

Here are my reworked numbers. Saiyan to Freeza Numbers.


Saiyan Saga Part 1


Roshi 139
Yamcha 177
Kuririn 206
Tien 250


( For the humans, for convenience, I decided to keep the same percentage gaps throughout the entire series for the most part. So anytime Kuririn is one power Yamcha should be a bit lower , and Tien a bit higher. Also included Piccolo's 329 into this as well. Piccolo remains at 329 to Tien's 250 until he fuses with Nail, in which Gohan takes Piccolo's place as the 329 guy, until of course he enters the Rosat. I thought this was really a cool interesting theory. )

Piccolo
~ Weights 322
~ Full Power 408

Goku
~Weights 334
~Full Power 416


Raditz 1,220


Gohan
~Rage1 710
~Rage2 1,307





Saiyan Saga Part 2


Saibamen 1,200

Yamcha 1,243
Kuririn 1,440
Tien 1,748
Piccolo 2,300

Nappa 8,000

Goku
~Initial 5,000
~FullPower 8,060
~Kaioken 16,120
~KKx3 24,180
~KKx4 32,240

Vegeta 18,000
~Oozaru 180,000



Freeza's Henchmen


Kuririn 1,500
~Potential 10,500

Gohan 1,500
~ Potential 12,500



Kiwi 18,000
Dodoria 20,000
Zarbon 22,000
~Transformed 28,000

Vegeta 24,000
~Zenkai 30,000




Ginyu Force


Ginyu(Goku'sBody) 23,000

Kuririn 23,000

Gohan 27,000



Nail 42,000

Reecome 45,000
Burter 45,000
Jeice 45,000

Vegeta 30,000
~Zenkai 60,000

( This is Vegeta's initial zenkai. I believe in the continous zenkai theory. Vegeta initially after the zenkai still is amazed by Goku and wants nothing to do with Goku or Ginyu. Yet Goku and Vegeta both seem to agree Vegeta's new power can take on Jeice with no problem )

Ginyu 120,000

Goku 90,000
~Kaioken 180,000



Freeza Saga

(Yamcha 148,000)

( If Yamcha where to have come to Namek he would be this strong. Like I said before, the percentage gaps always stay the same throughout the entire series )

Kuririn 172,000

( Kuririn is tied to Piccolo's power. Gohan actually takes Piccolo place at this moment as Piccolo is about to fuse with Nail, so I based everyone off of Gohan's power now. Kuririn stated to have grown in power tremendously and Vegeta thinks with his help as well as Gohan's they can beat Freeza. I give the humans the benefit of the doubt and based on Tien's Shin Kikoho, I believe they end up all in the low millions. So I have to start showing the growth as soon as possible as I don't want them having to get 10x/20x stronger in the 3 yr training period for the androids. Either way I feel this power is plausible as well. I don't hate on the humans, they deserve some respect, and should be included in the heavily plot induced power ups everyone is getting at this point. )

(Tien 209,000 )

( If Tien got wished to Namek )
Piccolo
~ Initial W/Weights 275,000

( This is the power that Nail bases Kamiccolo on. Nail says that if Piccolo fused with Kami , he might be stronger than Freeza's 530k. I believe Kami doubles Piccolo's power. So Kamiccolo at this point would be 550,000. At least his with weights power would be, Nail does not know that Piccolo has some extra power to spare on top of this. )
~ Initial W/o Weights 300,000

( This is Piccolo true power. He says he gained enormous power in OtherWorld, it was 6 days, but power increases because of the plot, not logic. Piccolo thinks he can defeat Freeza initially but realizes he is no match later. Many people think Piccolo shouldn't be so strong but who's to say he's not? I got by the Kami doubles Piccolo rule as well. )
~ Nail Fusion W/w 1,250,000
~ Nail Fusion 1,500,000

Gohan 275,000
~Rage 1,100,000

( Gohan uses a 4x rage boost against Freeza both times )
~Zenkai 450,000
~Rage 1,800,000

( Gohan's first significant zenkai of the series. 4x rage boost on top as well. )

Vegeta 475,000
~Zenkai 2,400,000


Freeza
~ 3rd Suppression 530,000
~Initial 2nd 1,060,000
~Power Up 2nd 1,200,000
~ 2nd Suppression 1,400,000
~ 1st Suppression 2,250,000
~ Initial True Form 3,300,000
~ 50% 70,000,000
~ 70% 98,000,000
~ 100% 140,000,000


Goku 3,000,000
~KKx10 30,000,000
~KKx20 60,000,000
~SSJ 150,000,000






Mecha Freeza Saga

Yamcha 242,000

Kuririn 282,000

Tien 342,000

Gohan 450,000

Vegeta 2,750,000

Piccolo 4,000,000

( Piccolo sees enormous growth in the Androids Arc. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Piccolo's potential increased dramatically once he fused with Nail. Piccolo training for one full year here at that dramatic increased rate of improvement should logically appear in the Trunks Saga as well. It's not stated as much, but there are hints. Piccolo challenges Vegeta , an act that generally won't happen unless Piccolo feels he is superior. Also Piccolo gets some good quotes about him, and takes a somewhat leadership role towards the end of the saga. Piccolo surely surpassed the base saiyans by a huge amount by the androids saga. Hell I think Piccolo surpassed the Initial SSjs by the Androids Arc, so Piccolo surpassing the base saiyans here in the Trunks Saga is not that big of a deal to me at least. )

King Cold
~ Full Power 100,000,000

( Cold ~ Suppressed Mecha Freeza. I assume Cold is at full power when he arrives. That level of power is suggested to be way weaker than 100% Freeza by Gohan, but also suggested to be pretty damn strong by Mecha Freeza who implies that if he is having trouble with an opponent even with his new power, with Cold's help it will be no problem. I make Cold 70% of Organic Freeza and call it a day. )


Trunks 3,000,000
~SSJ 150,000,000

( Trunks seems confident going against 100% mecha, but that's because he underestimated him. If Mecha went 100% Trunks would be having the fight of his life. Trunks say that Goku was better than he thought, so logically Trunks had predictions of how strong Freeza/Goku were, seeing as how he underestimated Goku, he logically underestimated Freeza as well. Also, Gohan is very familiar with Goku's power on namek. If there was a big difference I think Gohan would have noted it , I mean he did confuse Trunks for Goku, only because of SSJs differing ki, but nonetheless like I said, if there was a big difference it would be noted. I choose to keep them as equals . )


Mecha Freeza
~ Initial 100,000,000
~FullPower(NotShown) 160,000,000

( Freeza gets a signficant power up, yet he still questions if he will win. To me 20 million at this stage suits both needs . )


Goku 3,500,000
~SSJ 175,000,000

[Fox666]

I have something like this in my mind...


Raditz
Goku: 910
Piccolo: 900
Raditz: 1,500
Gohan (enraged): 1,307

Nappa
Piccolo: 3,500
Kuririn: 1,770
Gohan: 981
Tenshinhan: 1,830
Chaos: 610
Yamcha: 1,480
Saibaiman: 1,200
Nappa: 4,000
Goku: 8,000
Goku Kaioken 2x: 16,000

Vegeta
Goku: 8,000
Goku Kaioken 2x: 16,000
Goku Kaioken 3x: 24,000
Goku Kaioken 4x: 32,000
Vegeta: 18,000
Vegeta Oozaru: 50,000
Vegeta (after Oozaru): 5,000
Yajirobe: 970
Kuririn: 1,770
Gohan: 981
Gohan Oozaru: 9,810

Namek
Vegeta: 24,000
Kiew: 18,000
Dodoria: 22,000
Zarbon: 23,000
Zarbon (transformed): 30,000
Vegeta (zenkai): 30,000

Ginyu
Kuririn: 13,000
Gohan: 14,000
Vegeta: 30,000
Gurdo: 10,000
Reecome: 40,000
Jeice: 40,000
Burter: 40,000
Ginyu: 90,000
Goku: 90,000
Ginyu (maximum): 120,000
Goku Kaioken 2x: 180,000
Ginyu (in Goku body): 23,000
Gohan (zenkai): 24,000

Freeza
Freeza: 530,000
Vegeta: 500,000
Kuririn: 13,000
Gohan: 24,000
Freeza (2nd form): 1,200,000
Piccolo: 1,200,000
Freeza (3rd form): 1,800,000
Vegeta (zenkai): 2,400,000
Freeza (final form): 2,400,000 - 3,000,000
Goku: 3,000,000
Goku kaioken 10x: 30,000,000
Goku kaioken 20x: 60,000,000
Freeza (50%): 60,000,000
Freeza (100%): 120,000,000
Goku SSJ: 150,000,000

Trunks
Cold: 100,000,000
Freeza: 130,000,000
Trunks: 3,000,000
Trunks SSJ: 150,000,000

Androids
Yamcha: 10,000
Android #19: 2,000,000
Android #20: 2,000,000
Goku SSJ: 30,000,000
Andoird #19 (energy absorbed): 150,000,000
Vegeta: 3,500,000
Vegeta SSJ: 175,000,000
Piccolo: 3,000,000
Android #17: 220,000,000
Android #18: 210,000,000

Imperfect Cell
Imperfect Cell: 150,000,000
Piccolo: 220,000,000
Android #17: 220,000,000
Imperfect Cell (powered-up): 500,000,000
Android #16: 500,000,000

Semi-perfect Cell
Semi-perfect Cell: 1,000,000,000
Vegeta SSJ Stage 2: 1,400,000,000
Trunks SSJ Stage 2: 1,200,000,000
Perfect Cell: 3,500,000,000
Trunks SSJ Stage 3: 3,000,000,000
Goku SSJ (50%): 1,500,000,000

Cell Game
Goku SSJ: 3,000,000,000
Perfect Cell: 3,500,000,000
Gohan SSJ: 2,700,000,000
Cell Jr.: 1,300,000,000
Gohan SSJ2: 5,400,000,000
Perfect Cell (maximum): 4,000,000,000
Perfect Cell (zenkai): 5,500,000

Babidi
Kibito: 40,000,000
Kaioshin: 400,000,000
Puipui: 30,000,000
Vegeta: 70,000,000
Yakon: 800,000,000
Goku: 60,000,000
Goku SSJ: 3,000,000,000
Goku SSJ2: 6,000,000,000
Gohan SSJ: 2,400,000,000
Dabura: 5,500,000,000
Majin Vegeta SSJ: 4,000,000,000

Majin Buu
Majin Buu: 18,000,000,000
Gohan SSJ2: 4,800,000,000
Kaioshin: 400,000,000
Majin Vegeta SSJ2: 8,000,000,000
Trunks SSJ: 2,300,000,000
Goten SSJ: 2,200,000,000
Piccolo: 220,000,000
Goku SSJ3: 24,000,000,000

Shin Buu
Shin Buu: 36,000,000,000
Gotenks: 90,000,000
Gotenks SSJ: 4,500,000,000
Gotenks SSJ2: 9,000,000,000
Gotenks SSJ3: 36,000,000,000
Ultimate Gohan: 54,000,000,000
Fusion Buu: 72,000,000,000
Ultimate Buu: 90,000,000,000
Vegetto: 3,200,000,000
Vegetto SSJ: 160,000,000,000

Kid Buu
Kid Buu: 24,000,000,000
Goku SSJ3: 24,000,000,000

[dbgtFO]

I have something like this in my mind...
Freeza (100%): 120,000,000
Goku SSJ: 150,000

You obviously mistyped

Androids
Android #19: 2,000,000
Android #20: 2,000,000
Goku SSJ: 6,000,000
Andoird #19 (energy absorbed): 150,000,000
Piccolo: 3,000,000

Goku can't be that weak, if you consider Tenshinhan and Yamcha's reactions, they wouldn't react that way if Goku was only 2% of what he was 3 years ago
This would in turn make #19 & #20 a LOT stronger and Piccolo as well

Imperfect Cell
Piccolo: 220,000,000
Majin Buu
Piccolo: 220,000,000

So you are saying Piccolo didn't increase, when he in fact stated he had after entering the RoSAT?
It's not to diss or anything, I just want to know, why he didn't increase in your power levels.

[Fox666]

I did not cared about irrelevant increases. Maybe they increased, but I am not interested in listing every single increase. If I do so, probably I will get far from the truth if I didn't.

I changed Goku's power by the way. 20% is enough to make Tenshinhan wet his pants.

[dbgtFO]

I did not cared about irrelevant increases. Maybe they increased, but I am not interested in listing every single increase. If I do so, probably I will get far from the truth if I didn't.

Okay.

I changed Goku's power by the way. 20% is enough to make Tenshinhan wet his pants.

Still #19 & #20 can't be that weak, or else BASE Goku punching #20 in the face would have caused a lot more damage, considering Piccolo is as strong, as base Goku, but managed to damage him more.
And also Piccolo was compared to Super Saiyans IMO he can't be at the level BASE Goku is at, since that statement implies he's a LOT stronger, than base Saiyans.
Unless you are giving Piccolo that amplification technique??

[Kaboom]

I think perhaps I sense an attitude from you as well, as if you are the Power Level Boss because of your experiences from MFG and how whatever logic I come up with, you will not even give the time of day because you have been there done that and can't be wrong.

No, in fact, I was not popular at all for my "ideas" on MFG. The vocal minority there were snobbish and dismissive, and, like I mentioned, judged the worth of a member based on how closely his Power Levels conformed to their tightly knit group-think. It was a downright horrible environment. So, if anything, I may have just developed an oversensitive defense to that type of bullcrap, and as previously mentioned I don't want at all to see it infect here, where post-Trunks Power Levels are decidedly and universally recognized as nothing more than fan-creations, and should be about free expression like any other "art" form.

So when you started picking mine apart so critically that you were actually giving me minimum "correct" percentile ranges to adhere to... the alarms started sounding in my head. And I don't believe I've overreacted in any way.

[Fox666]

Still #19 & #20 can't be that weak, or else BASE Goku punching #20 in the face would have caused a lot more damage, considering Piccolo is as strong, as base Goku, but managed to damage him more.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that the correct answer is that goku Ki was in the maximum, but his combat efficiency wasn't. Anyone with a scouter would pick up 150 million out of him, but he would easily be defeated by being with much less than that...

And also Piccolo was compared to Super Saiyans IMO he can't be at the level BASE Goku is at, since that statement implies he's a LOT stronger, than base Saiyans.
Unless you are giving Piccolo that amplification technique??

I just don't believe Piccolo was in the SSJ level. Far from this, in my opinion Vegeta in his base form was clearly superior to Piccolo



Back them was a discussion about Piccolo's level. But I really don't get how you jump from from these manga lives to anything related to Piccolo's battle power. So for me these few pages I posted are more reliable.


#19 and #20 are only strong if they absorb energy. #19 was lucky that Goku was sick and could absorb the energy of a SSJ. However #20 only absorbed useless energy and without energy he is very weak.

[dbgtFO]

I just don't believe Piccolo was in the SSJ level. Far from this, in my opinion Vegeta in his base form was clearly superior to Piccolo
*snip*
Back them was a discussion about Piccolo's level. But I really don't get how you jump from from these manga lives to anything related to Piccolo's battle power. So for me these few pages I posted are more reliable.

Which is basically the same as this:
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/3787/022t0.jpg http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4071/023aq.jpg
And we both agree, that Krillin and Gohan are FAR from being comparable to 50% Freeza right??

#19 and #20 are only strong if they absorb energy. #19 was lucky that Goku was sick and could absorb the energy of a SSJ. However #20 only absorbed useless energy and without energy he is very weak.

It's true, that they primarily use absorption to get strong, but that doesn't mean they can't start out at a power close to Freeza's 100%.

[rereboy]

#19 and #20 are only strong if they absorb energy. #19 was lucky that Goku was sick and could absorb the energy of a SSJ. However #20 only absorbed useless energy and without energy he is very weak.

#20 absorbed a big blast from SSJ Vegeta before facing Piccolo.

And Piccolo proved that he was much stronger than #20 with that blast absorbed.

So, at the very least, Piccolo has more power than that single blast from SSJ Vegeta, which I think would put him higher than base Vegeta, since SSJ Vegeta is 50 times stronger than base Vegeta.

[Rocketman]

#20 absorbed a big blast from SSJ Vegeta before facing Piccolo.

It wasn't that big. Vegeta was only intending to level the canyon, and an attack of 18,000 could blow up the Earth.

[rereboy]

#20 absorbed a big blast from SSJ Vegeta before facing Piccolo.

It wasn't that big. Vegeta was only intending to level the canyon, and an attack of 18,000 could blow up the Earth.

Yet, Krillin feared for his safety and for the safety of the others and try to warn Vegeta that they were there.

Also, the blast was intended to flush out #20 so I think it would have at least enough power to harm him if he didn`t absorb it.

And we saw many times in the series attacks way, way, WAY more powerful than Vegeta`s 18000 fail to do nothing more than a big crater, so...

[Fox666]

I did not remember that bloast #20 absorbed. But I agree with Rocketman that Vegeta was just trying to clean up the canyon so that #20 would not be able to hide...

[dbgtFO]

I did not remember that bloast #20 absorbed. But I agree with Rocketman that Vegeta was just trying to clean up the canyon so that #20 would not be able to hide...

Since you left out my reply about Piccolo compared to Vegeta, I'm assuming you agree, that Vegeta firing a blast in close proximity of Piccolo is far from enough to determine how strong one is, when we got the example from above?

[Titan]

First of all,i don't care about pls and i never made a pl list,however i have to say something.

Yes, there are matters of properly comparing one character to the other, and obviously doing something like listing Yamcha as stronger than Buff Boo would be stupid. But 95% of everything involved is up to interpretation. Including the aforementioned "ranges."

I put this thread in the fanworks section for a reason. Because as far as this forum is concerned, any numerical power levels beyond Trunks' 5 are entirely made-up by fans. Hence their creation in this thread and on this forum in general is dealt with as more of an artistic expression or tossing around theories than any strict form of "factual research." Thus there is no "right and wrong" when it comes to this.

The problem is that you are not following your own rules.
When p123 said "...Moderation, IMO is trying to keep the numbers as low as possible is it not?.... you said :

"...No, it's more about not blowing things out of proportion..."
That's just your opinion,but you just said that his interpretation was completely wrong and stupid,ie,unreasonable out of proportion.He thinks the same about your interpretation,ie,that you are trying to keep the numbers as low as possible.

But on the flipside, is there any strict reason to, say for example, put Android 17 at 600 million when him being around 300 million instead works just as well, if not better? No, there isn't. So I don't. Simple as that.

It is your opinion that things work better that way.Others have different perspectives.

p123, .So when you start labeling my ideas "silly" and "ridiculous" or "redonko" and try to give me minimum percentages as if you're the big Power Levels boss and you determine what is or isn't acceptable... that isn't cool.

This is from a guy who just called dumb anyone who thinks base sayans surpassed Piccolo in the final arc.Note that i think Piccolo is stronger than base sayans,but i already saw guys giving good reasons why base sayans could have been stronger than Piccolo.

I'll put something high if it needs to be. Ultimate Gohan is at 15 billion, more than 6x stronger than his prior maximum, because that's what the story required. I'm not going to try to cheat things around and have him at, like, 9 billion, just because I don't like him being any higher than that.

Certainly you are free to put your list the way you want.
However,you already said a lot of times that you don't like to see huge power levels,because you think it is wrong out of proportion (according to your perspective),but remember that any numerical power levels beyond Trunks' 5 are entirely made-up,regardless you still use your own numbers as facts several times.
The fact is that you adjust many times in discussions just to keep the power of some charaters in track with your line of reasoning.I think that's pretty obvious to anyone.
The power of A-19 ,A-20,the humans,Pui PUI, Yakon,etc,the power of these characters and their actions have implications in the different lines of reasoning.
In your case everything obeys to one thing,they need to stay in a level that you consider reasonable or that keeps your personal interpretation of the story intact.
I don't follow too much these discussions,but i never saw you changing your opinion after a discussion.I always thought that A-19 was stronger than Freeza,but now i changed my mind,but i still think that A-20 was stronger than Freeza.

But you're the only one here in this thread, or on the entire forum, who's taking these Power Levels so damn seriously.

But,you and some of your friends who agree with you, take Power Levels seriously like p123 ,and when someone goes against something you don't agree quickly you remind everyone in any thread that there is another way to see things differently.
Bottom line you care a lot about this,so just don't act like you don't give a damn.

So would anyone who posts in here (if they haven't all been scared off at this point).

You are in a position (as moderator)who is susceptible to intimidate kids and push them to your interpretation of the story.Many times you outright say that your interpretation is more reasonable or acceptable than another trying to make your opinion better,well that's not being neutral.

I'm a moderator in the site tennis magazine and one of the conditions to ocupy that position was to refrain my comments, apart from expressing my view once,but i can't engage in discussions with other members.
There are other members here who agree with you,so there is no need to step up every time to remind everyone of your view on the matter.
Let them argue,your view is already represented by several members.
I'm no trying to say that you should resign from your position over here.
I'm just saying that you have strong opinions about the story and you obviously care a lot about power levels.
IMO a moderator must remain neutral and keep things nicely to everyone.
Threads like this can only work,if everyone explains his line of reasoning and after that the discussion is over,because fans have different interpretations of the story.
Every time you or anybody else calls anyone dumb(i'm not talking about Yamcha being stronger than buu like you said)the rules are broken.
I just hate to see guys changing a good substancied opinion just because a group of guys tells them that X pl for character X is great pl,so there is no need to put them above that x level.
Sometimes,i agree with p123,sometimes i agree with you or other members.
That's it!

It would be appropriate to avoid some themes whose discussion is endless.

[dbgtFO]

Yo Titan.
Although it's obivous to me you are referring to Kaboom couldn't you start putting names in the qoute tags?
It gets pretty annoying, when you have to remember, who you are replying to.

[Kaboom]

This is from a guy who just called dumb anyone who thinks base sayans surpassed Piccolo in the final arc.

This is the only part of your post I'm going to specifically address. No, I never attacked any members themselves. I labeled the idea itself as dumb.


Otherwise, since your entire post was more or less multiple rephrasings of "that's just your opinion"... well, duh, of course it's all a matter of expressing things the way I see them. Otherwise everyone's list would be the same and that'd be boring. That's the whole "artistic expression" thing I'm talking about. My "moderation" stance is just that; MY stance. Me thinking that Android 17 can do just fine at 300 million instead of 600 million, to recycle the example, doesn't mean everyone else has to conform to that; I just don't like placing people super-high without a good reason. That's my style. I never tried coercing people into doing the same, or picking them apart when they didn't. And you won't see me doing so. It's all the same end result because it's all representing the same story, and that's all that really matters.

On the rare occasions when something IS actually a matter of information, not opinion, I'm always very careful to differentiate the two. I've never claimed that something is "right" just because it's my own opinion.

You're right about one thing, though. As a mod, I'm getting too involved in these topics, which is a bad habit of mine but hard to resist since I do like discussing these sort of things. I should learn to back off a little.


I'm gonna get started on that revised "Raditzes" list.