Disproving the 120 number

[Fox666]

Yeah, it is just a number. But, it is still strange on how Form 2 and 4 could be so ridiculously far apart. I think I would have called it out even without the mistranslation. At least Goku's multipliers make sense (3,000,000 x10,x20, then x50.) But when Freeza doubles his power for 1,000,000 on the first transformation then goes into a 2nd transformation that we are left in the dark about... then WHAM we get a 40,000,000-120,000,000 figure on his third. It just doesn't feel right. Which why it bugs people, including me.

The mistake is to think that there is some "mathematic logic" in transformations or fusion. There isn't.

[mister yummy]

I don't get it... How does 12,000,000 not work. We all even thought it was official until a few years ago. I don't see why you can only fudge it down to 40,000,000.

Note that Goku at 150,000,000 is ridiculous as well. 15,000,000 is better. And 300,000 after the healing chamber.

[Nazi Cola]

Because Goku can go toe-to-toe with Freeza before even using a basic Kaio-ken.

I'd still like to see someone prove that the Kaio-ken is "inconsistent" and that he was "using it the whole time without an aura."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Because Kaio-Ken X10 Goku is way stronger than 12 million. Since we see 50% Freeza trash Kaio-Ken X10 Goku, and go on to stop an even stronger Kaio-Ken X20 Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha, it makes no sense for Freeza's full-power to be weaker than his 50% power.

[Deimos]

Because Goku can go toe-to-toe with Freeza before even using a basic Kaio-ken.

But the thing is, if Goku is 3,000,000 and Freeza is 40,000,000. How could he go toe-to-toe with Freeza when he dwarfs Goku in power.

The comparison works the same when it is 300,000 vs. 4,000,000 (mistranslation). Goku doesn't have a shot in hell unless he uses Kaioken.

The only thing that we could argue is if Goku uses Kaioken in short bursts throughout the entire fight to keep up with Freeza. However, there is not a lot of visual evidence supporting it.

Because Kaio-Ken X10 Goku is way stronger than 12 million. Since we see 50% Freeza trash Kaio-Ken X10 Goku, and go on to stop an even stronger Kaio-Ken X20 Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha, it makes no sense for Freeza's full-power to be weaker than his 50% power.

Freeza at 12 million is partly based on the assumption that Goku's base power level is 300,000 instead of 3 million. I have a little chart on one of my posts in the first page. That is the full theory.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The Freeza at 12 million is partly based on the assumption that Goku's base power level is 300,000 instead of 3 million.

That's some assumption (I used to believe it) when everything goes against it.

[Bussani]

Yeah, it is just a number. But, it is still strange on how Form 2 and 4 could be so ridiculously far apart. I think I would have called it out even without the mistranslation. At least Goku's multipliers make sense (3,000,000 x10,x20, then x50.) But when Freeza doubles his power for 1,000,000 on the first transformation then goes into a 2nd transformation that we are left in the dark about... then WHAM we get a 40,000,000-120,000,000 figure on his third. It just doesn't feel right. Which why it bugs people, including me.

I agree with this, to be honest. It isn't that 120,000,000 is simply a big number--it's that it jumps so far from one form to another. But that said, since we don't really have any idea what his third form's power was, it might not be as strange as it seems. Rather than his power increasing linearly each time he transforms, it could be increasing exponentially each time; the difference in power between his first form and second form could be tiny compared to the difference between his second form and third form. For example...

First form: 530,000
Second form: 1,000,000+
Third form: 5,000,000
Final form: 60,000,000

Second form is about double first. Third form is about 5 times larger than second. Final form is 12 times greater than third.

Now, if you're of the belief that his forms exist to restrain his power, it makes sense that his power in his true form would be more flexible--that is, he wasn't using that 60,000,000 until he said he was using 50% of his power. To take it further, you could assume that 60,000,000 is actually this form's real strength, despite him saying that it's only 50% of what he can actually do; bulking his muscles up, much like grade 2 and 3 of Super Saiyan, could be seen as something extra.

As for Goku's massive near-death-recovery-boost, I like Kaboom's explanation that it's something to do with him getting closer to becoming a Super Saiyan. Vegeta himself tells Jeice that he'd come to realize that his own last increase wasn't something normal, and theorizes that it's because he's becoming a Super Saiyan. Maybe he was right!

But the thing is, if Goku is 3,000,000 and Freeza is 40,000,000. How could he go toe-to-toe with Freeza when he dwarfs Goku in power.

Freeza didn't start using 50% of his power until Goku pissed him off. That's when Goku starts using the 10-fold Kaioken, and even that left him at such a disadvantage that he had to try 20-fold.

[Nazi Cola]

Because Goku can go toe-to-toe with Freeza before even using a basic Kaio-ken.

But the thing is, if Goku is 3,000,000 and Freeza is 40,000,000. How could he go toe-to-toe with Freeza when he dwarfs Goku in power.

Because Freeza was toying with him the whole time.

The comparison works the same when it is 300,000 vs. 4,000,000 (mistranslation). Goku doesn't have a shot in hell unless he uses Kaioken.

Freeza was only using like 3% of his power or whatever before he bumped it up to 50%, which is why Goku only needed the basic Kaio-ken twice (I think it was twice) beforehand. Once Freeza went 50%, Goku was being owned like no tomorrow even with Kaio-ken x10, and Freeza was still toying with him.

The only thing that we could argue is if Goku uses Kaioken in short bursts throughout the entire fight to keep up with Freeza. However, there is not a lot of visual evidence supporting it.

Not a lot supporting it? What do you mean? Every time he uses it there's an aura. When Freeza is merely "warming up", Goku uses it twice to gain a quick edge over Freeza. When Freeza goes 50%, Goku uses Kaio-ken x10 once, then tries a Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say.

[Deimos]

Because Freeza was toying with him the whole time.

Right, that's what I was implying.

Freeza was only using like 3% of his power or whatever before he bumped it up to 50%, which is why Goku only needed the basic Kaio-ken twice (I think it was twice) beforehand. Once Freeza went 50%, Goku was being owned like no tomorrow even with Kaio-ken x10, and Freeza was still toying with him.

Is is 3%? I thought it was at 33%. He says to Goku that he is "Under half his true power", right?

Not a lot supporting it? What do you mean? Every time he uses it there's an aura. When Freeza is merely "warming up", Goku uses it twice to gain a quick edge over Freeza. When Freeza goes 50%, Goku uses Kaio-ken x10 once, then tries a Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to say.

Sorry, I wasn't very specific. I was talking about when the fight just started and he wasn't using Kaioken at all. Like when Goku was batting away all those "Death Beams" away from his friends.

[Nazi Cola]

Freeza was only using like 3% of his power or whatever before he bumped it up to 50%, which is why Goku only needed the basic Kaio-ken twice (I think it was twice) beforehand. Once Freeza went 50%, Goku was being owned like no tomorrow even with Kaio-ken x10, and Freeza was still toying with him.

Is is 3%? I thought it was at 33%. He says to Goku that he is "Under half his true power", right?

I don't remember his exact quote(s) and I don't have the Freeza fight volumes with me, but I don't think he mentions how much power he's using at the start. He just says he's "warming up", I believe. But Goku doesn't have any aura which indicates he isn't using the Kaio-ken, so for Freeza to be relatively on the same plateau of power as a 3,000,000 Base Goku, he'd be using about 3% of his overall power; unless, of course, he suddenly grew much weaker and put himself on a level with a 300,000 Base Goku, which I find not likely since he just whooped the shit out of a Vegeta that was confident in fighting his second suppression.

Sorry, I wasn't very specific. I was talking about when the fight just started and he wasn't using Kaioken at all. Like when Goku was batting away all those "Death Beams" away from his friends.

Yeah, which just shows how strong Base Goku is compared to everybody that fought before him.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, Freeza never mentions his initial % of power.

[Deimos]

I don't remember his exact quote(s) and I don't have the Freeza fight volumes with me, but I don't think he mentions how much power he's using at the start. He just says he's "warming up", I believe. But Goku doesn't have any aura which indicates he isn't using the Kaio-ken, so for Freeza to be relatively on the same plateau of power as a 3,000,000 Base Goku, he'd be using about 3% of his overall power; unless, of course, he suddenly grew much weaker and put himself on a level with a 300,000 Base Goku, which I find not likely since he just whooped the shit out of a Vegeta that was confident in fighting his second suppression.

I was going off your previous statement: "I'd still like to see someone prove that the Kaio-ken is "inconsistent" and that he was "using it the whole time without an aura."

What if Goku used Kaioken in short bursts to fight at his Freeza's level (33%) instead? What if the bursts were so short, the aura is untraceable? Sort of how Goku was fighting the Ginyu Force. Rising and lowering his power instantaneously.

But again, this is all speculation.

Yeah, which just shows how strong Base Goku is compared to everybody that fought before him.

What if Goku was using Kaioken in short, untraceable bursts?

[cpd12589]

Nothing.

Thread over.

Totally agree. I don't see how the 120,000,000 power level for Frieza in the Daizenshuu is wrong. It's definitely more valid than anything else IMO.

[Bussani]

Yeah, which just shows how strong Base Goku is compared to everybody that fought before him.

Right. Even if you believe that Goku could have been using a x10 Kaioken throughout most of the fight, everything implies that Goku had surpassed Vegeta, Piccolo and everyone else when he arrived on the battle field. Goku says that the new power welling up in him makes even him shudder, and he'd been paying attention to the battle powers outside for the whole time up to that point.

Yeah, which just shows how strong Base Goku is compared to everybody that fought before him.

What if Goku was using Kaioken in short, untraceable bursts?

That seems like the only way of making it work, but you'd have to assume that Goku was referring to Kaioken x10 when talking about his incredible new power that shocked even him. That seems like a stretch to me.

[mister yummy]

I think Goku used Kaio-ken, in bursts, even from the begining when he bats away the death beams. Perhaps not up to x10 right away, but he was definately using it from the start. In bursts. Not the entire time.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He was simply standing around the entire time, while guys like Krillin (who didn't even believe he was Goku based on how powerful he had grown) and Vegeta (who just went from believing he could stop Freeza to believing Goku had surpassed his limits) marvelled at his power. Not to mention Goku was actually afraid of his new power, and claimed it came at the "right time", since he was just claiming how Freeza might be unbeatable even if he were to heal and what not.

Goku was already considered to be one of the most powerful guys there before he even started fighting. There was no hint at Kaio-Ken in any of those points.

[Rocketman]

Note that Goku at 150,000,000 is ridiculous as well. 15,000,000 is better. And 300,000 after the healing chamber.

There wouldn't be a problem with this, except the series goes on and Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan with a base of over 1,000,000 and is just about equal to SS Goku.

[Deimos]

There wouldn't be a problem with this, except the series goes on and Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan with a base of over 1,000,000 and is just about equal to SS Goku.

Isn't SSJ Vegeta superior to SSJ Goku when the androids arrive?

Also, is it a possibility that the others sense Goku's power that is deep within (Kaioken) and not only his base power?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Don't see how they would sense the Kaio-Ken when it isn't activated. They had to have been going off of what was there, which was his Base. Goku was scared of the power, so it makes sense for the others to be astonished by it, too.

[Deimos]

Well in comparison, During the Cell Games, Goku knew that Gohan had a power deep within him to defeat Cell without seeing Gohan transform into a SSJ2.

Maybe they sensed the locked power without Goku unleashing it yet. They were aware of Kaioken so they could at least imagine his power with it.