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[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I don't understand this talk of "naps" or "continuous 'zenkai' power-ups." Doesn't it make more sense that Vegeta simply hadn't showed off all of his ki until he fought the final boss, Freeza?

[Bussani]

I don't understand this talk of "naps" or "continuous 'zenkai' power-ups." Doesn't it make more sense that Vegeta simply hadn't showed off all of his ki until he fought the final boss, Freeza?

Makes sense to me. I mean, he only fought Jheese and Ginyu-Goku between eating the senzu and fighting Freeza, right? And he didn't seem to struggle with either of them.

Edit: Of course, that does mean that he was secretly even stronger than Goku after eating that senzu, who was impressing the hell out of him. Maybe even Vegeta didn't realize how powerful he'd just become right away? He makes a comment later about how he's realized that his last power-up wasn't normal, and he thinks it has something to do with him becoming a Super Saiyan. He also makes a vague comment about "still getting stronger", which is where the "continuous zenkai" idea comes from, I guess.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Wasn't that said of Gohan and Kuririn, that they kept getting stronger? Or did Vegeta also say something about himself, at a different point in time? Of course, it's true that Vegeta had been getting stronger and stronger, ever since he arrived on Namec. That was from a bunch of separate power-ups, though.

He was impressed by Goku's strength, but is that surprise? Everyone was saying how much different of a person Goku was, since the battle on Earth. Of course he'd be impressed by such a ridiculous power-up.

[Bussani]

Wasn't that said of Gohan and Kuririn, that they kept getting stronger? Or did Vegeta also say something about himself, at a different point in time? Of course, it's true that Vegeta had been getting stronger and stronger, ever since he arrived on Namec. That was from a bunch of separate power-ups, though.

In my copy (Viz, of course) he says this while fighting Jheese:

"It's true, you know... I've surpassed the limits of the Saiyan race...and I'm still getting stronger. And I'm just beginning to catch on myself that this is more than just an ordinary increase. In other words...I'm getting closer and closer...to becoming a Super Saiyan!"

But yeah, I said the comment was vague because you could take it as meaning that he's still getting stronger with each battle, as Saiyans do.

He was impressed by Goku's strength, but is that surprise? Everyone was saying how much different of a person he was since the battle on Earth. Of course he'd be impressed by such a ridiculous power-up.

That's definitely possible. I always felt like it was implied that Goku had surpassed him, but looking at it now, he never explicitly says that. His later "I'm just beginning to catch on myself" comment is what makes me wonder if even he'd even realized the depths of his new power yet himself.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He was impressed by Goku's strength, but is that surprise? Everyone was saying how much different of a person he was since the battle on Earth. Of course he'd be impressed by such a ridiculous power-up.

That's definitely possible. I always felt like it was implied that Goku had surpassed him, but looking at it now, he never explicitly says that. His later "I'm just beginning to catch on myself" comment is what makes me wonder if even he'd even realized the depths of his new power yet himself.

He believed that Goku had become a Super Saiyan, and was infuriated by that thought, since he wasn't one himself. That, along with the fact that he's surprised how Goku can increase his power instantaneously without it being able to be picked up by scouters, confirms to me that he thinks Goku was stronger than he was. But, as we see later, Vegeta just hadn't had the time to sleep and regain complete control of his ki. For example, Vegeta's full power after the Senzu was 500,000, but he could only use, like, 12% of it at the time (that's 60,000, if you bothered to do the maths--still lower than Goku's 90,000).

[p123]

Well whatever the case may be Vegeta does not think he is stronger than Goku or Ginyu immediately after the zenkai.

[Fox666]

Freeza: 1,000,000
Vegeta: 250,000
Gohan: 200,000
Gohan emotional: ?
Kuririn: 75,000
Nail: 4,200

I really dislike this list.

First of all, I see no correlation beetween it and the other lists (Daizenshuu, V-Jump).

Second, the values are hard to believe.

Kuririn: 75,000
Gohan 200,000

This suggests their power increased after the fight with the Ginyu force. I see no real evidence of this.

I know Vegeta said their power was increasing, but since Vegeta has no idea of how they got that strong, his statement makes completely sense even if you think that Kuririn and Gohan power did not increased since the battle with Ginyu force.

Either way, Gohan is too close to Vegeta, and it's really strange that they got stronger than the Ginyu force.

Vegeta: 250,000

He fought almost equally with Freeza (530,000). It's hard to believe Toriyama come up with this value.

Overall it sounds like they tried to make Vegeta weaker while Kuririn and Gohan stronger, in other words put them in the same line.


So for me this list is non-sense. It's not different from these videogames that put Reecome with 65,000...

[p123]

I know Vegeta said their power was increasing, but since Vegeta has no idea of how they got that strong, his statement makes completely sense even if you think that Kuririn and Gohan power did not increased since the battle with Ginyu force.

This is a baseless assumption. Vegeta says they increased in power so much they can help him beat Freeza. Vegeta is good at ki sensing by this point, very good actually. So at the end of the day it's a fact. Gohan/Kuririn are strong enough to help out against 1st form Freeza.

Gohan/Kuririn were both around 1500 initially on Namek.
After the powerup both over 10k.
While fighting GokuGinyu, Kuririn 23k, Gohan a bit higher.
Against Freeza it is totally plausible to put
Kuririn in the 75-175 k range and Gohan in the 175-275 range.

Either way, Gohan is too close to Vegeta, and it's really strange that they got stronger than the Ginyu force

It's not strange. Once you realize that plot determines power, and not logic, things become easier to understand. The more logic you try to apply to power increases, the more you lose your sense of what's going on in the manga.

Vegeta: 250,000

He fought almost equally with Freeza (530,000). It's hard to believe Toriyama come up with this value.

Agreed, this is highly inaccurate. Gohan is probably around this value. Vegeta logically is around the 500k range. This is just poor work.

So for me this list is non-sense. It's not different from these videogames that put Reecome with 65,000

Totally agree. Which is why I always urge people to use the guides as just that, a guide. They generally aren't off by tremendous amounts, but generally they are off for nearly every number non scouter. But they are close enough for us to make slight adjustments and have accuracy. At least regarding power levels, take their numbers with a big ass grain of salt.

[Fox666]

While fighting GokuGinyu, Kuririn 23k, Gohan a bit higher.

In the manga the battle is very quick, and I don't think Kuririn battle power there was anything else besides 13,000... Gohan in the other hand had a Zenkai and he crossed the 20,000 mark.

This is a baseless assumption. Vegeta says they increased in power so much they can help him beat Freeza. Vegeta is good at ki sensing by this point, very good actually. So at the end of the day it's a fact. Gohan/Kuririn are strong enough to help out against 1st form Freeza.

I don't think Vegeta was confident of the two power. Kuririn knows some tricks, and Gohan increases his power with emotions. They actually managed to fight back Freeza's second form.

Either way, Vegeta was expecting that Freeza transformation would be like that of Zarbon. Zarbon increased his power by around 30%, if Freeza was the same he would have a maximum of 700,000. That way Kuririn and Gohan would make a difference with Vegeta's power disadvantage. Too bad Freeza transformation increase was easily over 100%...

[p123]

In the manga the battle is very quick, and I don't think Kuririn battle power there was anything else besides 13,000... Gohan in the other hand had a Zenkai and he crossed the 20,000 mark.

This is flat out wrong. We see plenty of fight between Kuririn/Gohan vs GokuGinyu.

Kuririn fights evenly with a 23k fighter. Gohan laughs off a 23k fighter's power. Your eyes are not opened or something? Go read that part again.

don't think Vegeta was confident of the two power. Kuririn knows some tricks, and Gohan increases his power with emotions. They actually managed to fight back Freeza's second form.

Vegeta actually specifically brings up both of their power. So no. But yes I agree, their skills also are effective as we can see vs 2nd form Freeza. You sir are just a human hater. Thats some backwards reverse racism stuff right there, you are a human. Don't hate!

[mister yummy]

Before we start, I'm not that familiar with the Daizenshuu power levels list, and I mostly ignore them as guesswork anyways. Everything here is my own estimates and guesswork, and everyone is free to disagree with me.

Kurillin and Gohan are both around 10,000 right after the powerup, and from their they both slowly gain more. Kurillin tops out during the Ginyu Force fight, I believe. I'd put him between 15,000 and 20,000 when fighting Ginyu-in-Goku. Gohan, on the other hand, hadn't had the powerup as long. Only a few hours at most when the Ginyu Force arrives. He's between 10,000 and 15,000 against Guldo, slightly higher against Rekuum. He gets a 'zenkai' from that fight though, and your guess is as good as mine against Ginyu-in-Goku. 30,000 wouldn't be out of the question. Even as high as 75,000 would be believable.

In any case, between the two of them, fighting a guy at 23,000 who's awkward and not used to his new body, and doing that well against him isn't unbelievable, even if both were still at 10,000.

Moving on, Vegita was at between 30,000 and 40,000 against Rekuum, and not doing well at all. He fought his best, and did some damage, but in the end suffered a broken neck from Rekuum's power driver, and likely would have died without the Senzu. The zenkai from that was huge, putting him close to Freeza's first form power. Anywhere from 300,000 to 500,000 is good there. Of course, he hasn't slept in days, and has no idea himself how strong he is at first. He's fighting with an equivelant to about 90,000 against Jeice and Ginyu-in-Goku. After his nap, and in his rage at missing out on the Dragonballs, he realises just how strong he's really gotten.

Both Gohan and Vegita get in a Zenkai while fighting Freeza. Gohan jumps hugely in power this time, topping out over 500,000, and capable of going over a million when sufficiently pissed off. Vegita gets a huge boost as well, getting to about 2,000,000 after getting revived by Dende. What are the Daizenshuu power levels here?

Freeza himself is about 530,000 in his first form, and over a million in his second. His third form is harder to gauge, but let's top it out at about 2,100,000. His final form, at the start against Vegita, would be around 3,000,000, which would be roughly 25% of his full power. He fights Goku breifly at that power as well, before cranking it up to 1/3, at 4,000,000, and then 1/2, at 6,000,000, before cranking it up to 100% at about 12,000,000 (120 million is WAY too high, I don't care what anyone says, including the daizenshuu). His power drops slowly from here. I believe his true maximum is a bit higher, since Freeza was very beat up at this point, and has almost been killed by a Spirit Bomb. His true 100% would be higher, but how much higher, I'm not sure. Uninjured, he may have been able to take Goku out.

Speaking of Goku, he was about 90,000 when he landed on Namek. Kaioken x2 against Ginyu took it to 180,000. HE got very beat up, and was near death in Ginyu's body, and received a zenkai after the healing chamber, putting him at about 300,000. Using Kaioken x10 from the beginning against Freeza puts him at 3,000,000, and he fought evenly there. Freeza cranked it up, and Goku was forced to as well. He used Kaioken x20 breifly and in spurts, but it wrescked his body. He'd be at about 6,000,000 with Kaioken x20. After transforming, his power went up 50 fold (a coincidence, I believe, and not a hard and fast multiplier that applies to every SSJ transformation) to 15,000,000. His power slowly and steadily increased as he became more and more used to the form.

One of these days, I'll do a full power levels list, from the beginning of Dragonball to the end of GT, including the movies. Yes, it will be 90% guess work, but it'll still be cool.

[Tyro]

Speaking of Goku, he was about 90,000 when he landed on Namek. Kaioken x2 against Ginyu took it to 180,000. HE got very beat up, and was near death in Ginyu's body, and received a zenkai after the healing chamber, putting him at about 300,000. Using Kaioken x10 from the beginning against Freeza puts him at 3,000,000, and he fought evenly there. Freeza cranked it up, and Goku was forced to as well. He used Kaioken x20 breifly and in spurts, but it wrescked his body. He'd be at about 6,000,000 with Kaioken x20. After transforming, his power went up 50 fold (a coincidence, I believe, and not a hard and fast multiplier that applies to every SSJ transformation) to 15,000,000. His power slowly and steadily increased as he became more and more used to the form.

This isn't really the place to get into this old argument so I'll leave it at Goku wasn't using the 10-fold Kaio-ken against Freeza the whole time, just in bursts, most notably right after Freeza began using his 50% full power. This would be his third time ever having a noticable Kaio-ken aura during the fight, and it's clear in the manga that the aura is present whenever the user is using the technique.

[Fox666]

Moving on, Vegita was at between 30,000 and 40,000 against Rekuum, and not doing well at all.

He was stated as 30,000 in the corrected version of the manga (20,000 early).

Of course, he hasn't slept in days, and has no idea himself how strong he is at first. He's fighting with an equivelant to about 90,000 against Jeice and Ginyu-in-Goku.

Jeice did good against him. Even if Vegeta wasn't that serious in most of the fight, Jeice actually managed to land a hit on his face. So I wouldn't put Vegeta that far from Jeice.

Both Gohan and Vegita get in a Zenkai while fighting Freeza. Gohan jumps hugely in power this time, topping out over 500,000, and capable of going over a million when sufficiently pissed off. Vegita gets a huge boost as well, getting to about 2,000,000 after getting revived by Dende. What are the Daizenshuu power levels here?

The Daizenshuu doesn't states anything before Goku's arrival. All official data is that Goku is 3,000,000.


Also I don't think Gohan was at 500,000 after Dende healed him.

We saw what Gohan when enraged before and after the zenkai could do against Freeza second and third form (respectively). In the second Gohan was clearly stronger, I think it's safe to assume that the proportion of Gohan's normal state is the same of his enraged state.

We know that Gohan before the battle with Freeza was stronger than Ginyu (23,000), however the difference was not big. Basd on that I would put Gohan after the Zenkai around Reecome's level.

His final form, at the start against Vegita, would be around 3,000,000, which would be roughly 25% of his full power.

I wouldn't say that. Vegeta believed he could defeat Freeza after sensing his Ki. Freeza increased his power while fighting Vegeta, and still Goku (3,000,000) managed to land a kick on his face. (But this is just a detail and is not important)

(120 million is WAY too high, I don't care what anyone says, including the daizenshuu)

530,000 is also WAY too high!!

If it wasn't stated in the manga, fans probably would put Freeza's first form as 1/10 of that.

However, fans don't argue about it because it's clearly stated in the manga...

His power drops slowly from here. I believe his true maximum is a bit higher, since Freeza was very beat up at this point, and has almost been killed by a Spirit Bomb. His true 100% would be higher, but how much higher, I'm not sure. Uninjured, he may have been able to take Goku out.

The Daizenshuu states him as 120,000,000 and I don't think that would be his "injured" state. In my opinion the Daizenshuu simply states Freeza's maximum power.

Speaking of Goku, he was about 90,000 when he landed on Namek. Kaioken x2 against Ginyu took it to 180,000. HE got very beat up, and was near death in Ginyu's body, and received a zenkai after the healing chamber, putting him at about 300,000. Using Kaioken x10 from the beginning against Freeza puts him at 3,000,000, and he fought evenly there.

The problem is that, while the manga is not clear, all sources states that Goku was not using the Kaioken when he landed the first hit on Freeza's face...

This isn't really the place to get into this old argument so I'll leave it at Goku wasn't using the 10-fold Kaio-ken against Freeza the whole time, just in bursts, most notably right after Freeza began using his 50% full power. This would be his third time ever having a noticable Kaio-ken aura during the fight, and it's clear in the manga that the aura is present whenever the user is using the technique.

I actually don't think that is the case. The manga is not clear, as from one panel to another Goku's aura disappear...

I understand why there is such ambiguity in the manga about the Kaioken 10x thing.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

That's because Goku was using the Kaio-Ken in bursts, as he said to Ginyu. In the lower folds, he could just stand there and talk to somebody (Ginyu), but that isn't possible with Kaio-Ken x10 or x20. I think the x20 scene makes that especially clear, when Goku uses the technique quickly, to pull off one Kamehameha. Then, he drops back to his normal form. And then, Freeza hits the crap out of him. In his normal form.

[mister yummy]

It's not very clear, as I didn't consider it relevant. For the record, I think Goku used Kaio-ken x10 in bursts, but from the beginning of the fight.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Read the fight again. When Goku and Freeza start the battle, they're roughly even. Neither could do serious damage. Later, Freeza says that Goku still has some power hidden. Goku says yeah, he does. Goku was never planning on using the Kaio-Ken x20, so he could only logically be talking about the Kaio-Ken x10. Therefore, he certainly wasn't using it from the start!

[p123]

This is how I see this general area. What do you guys think???

Freeza Initial True Form 3,300,000
Goku 3,000,000
Vegeta 2,400,000
Freeza 3rd Form 2,250,000
Gohan Rage 2 1,800,000
Piccolo 1,500,000
Freeza 2nd Full Power 1,400,000
Piccolo Weights 1,250,000
Freeza 2nd PoweredUp 1,200,000
Gohan Rage 1 1,100,000
Initial Freeza 2nd 1,060,000
Freeza 1st 530,000
Vegeta 475,000
Gohan Zenkai 450,000
Initial Piccolo 300,000
Initial Piccolo Weights 275,000
Gohan 275,000
Kuririn 172,000




I can hear the outrage over Kuririn/Piccolo now... Chuckle...

[Fox666]

Freeza: 530,000
Vegeta: 350,000
Gohan: 349,999
Kuririn: 345,000
Piccolo: 800,000
Piccolo + Nail: 1,600,000
Vegeta (zenkai): 2,200,000
Gohan (zenkai): 2,100,000
Kuririn (zenkai): 2,050,000
Kuririn (drinking water): 2,099,000

[Nazi Cola]

Read the fight again. When Goku and Freeza start the battle, they're roughly even. Neither could do serious damage. Later, Freeza says that Goku still has some power hidden. Goku says yeah, he does. Goku was never planning on using the Kaio-Ken x20, so he could only logically be talking about the Kaio-Ken x10. Therefore, he certainly wasn't using it from the start!

You, sir, have given me more power in this ongoing debate with disbelievers!

[p123]

Kuririn is fighting a 23,000 level fighter evenly. It's not a long fight, but it's long enough to see that Kuririn is equals with Goku/Ginyu.


Then later, Vegeta says that Kuririn hasn't realized but he has powered up incredibly and is strong enough to help him against 1st form Freeza.


Kuririn ( Freeza ) >>>>> Kuririn ~ 23,000 ( GokuGinyu)