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[Fox666]

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[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

It should actually be called: Gohan forms when he fought Dabura - Topic #345,764

[astrallite]

What about Vegeta? When he's at full power SSJ and SSJ2 his hair...is exactly the same. His hair is different at base SSJ when it's completely clumpy.

Also Dabura did not throw a single punch or kick the entire battle. He was either blocking or getting his ass sent across the screen.

The only time he ever did anything was 1) Shoot a wave of fire out of his mouth 2) Shoot a fireball 3) Stone Spit at Gohan 4) Create a sword which was summarily broken in half by Gohan.

Vegeta says he would finish the fight fast, but it seems to me just his typical idiocy, because this is not a steel against steel battle, but steel against magic (to use an RPG analogy).

[Savage68]

Gohan wasn't a Super Saiyan or a Super Saiyan 2.

[ACCloud]

Long story short, Gohan was SSJ2 when fighting Dabura - Toriyama just forgot to draw the lightning in I know the interview is in one of the Daizenshuu (and as you say, the Daizenshuu do list Gohan as being SSJ2 in that fight as well).

[Piccolo Daimao]

I feel like crying.

[Senzu_Bean]

Gohan is clearly a Super Saiyan against Dabura. From the aura to the hair he is a Super Saiyan. However that doesn't mean he should be a Super Saiyan, just like Dende shouldn't be an adult by the time the Majin Buu arc began.

[Kaboom]

Gohan is not drawn as a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra so therefore he is not a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabra. It's very easy.

Toriyama would not "forget" to draw the form's distinctive lightning when he 1) Very clearly drew it, lightning and all, at the tournament just shortly ago and 2) drew it on Goku and Vegeta very plainly soon afterward.

There could be a million different reasons why Gohan couldn't or wouldn't use it, but the point remains that he didn't. The only element that even hints as such is Dabra's short character bio in one of the Daizenshuu volumes, which is actually contradicted by another element in a different volume.

There, I've said my part. After this, I'm merely watching the thread like a hawk.

[dbgtFO]

Fox666
All those examples are good, but you left out Super Saiyan Gohan at the 25th tournament.
His hair looks like a SSJ 2...
but he is in fact...
only SSJ.
So, as you can see AT decided to draw SSJ Gohan with SSJ 2 hair, which ruins the theory of Gohan being SSJ 2, because of having only 1 strand of hair.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Fox666
All those examples are good, but you left out Super Saiyan Gohan at the 25th tournament.
His hair looks like a SSJ 2...
but he is in fact...
only SSJ.
So, as you can see AT decided to draw SSJ Gohan with SSJ 2 hair, which ruins the theory of Gohan being SSJ 2, because of having only 1 strand of hair.

You can't use Gohan's hair as an indicator, considering it's inconsistent, or Gohan apparently had a haircut before the tournament. Previously, when training with Goten, he has one bang, but after that, he has one bang in both SSj and SSj2.

But wait--why am I even replying? This is a stupid, stupid topic, and copies of threads we've already debated to death a trillion times should be locked.

[dbgtFO]

Fox666
All those examples are good, but you left out Super Saiyan Gohan at the 25th tournament.
His hair looks like a SSJ 2...
but he is in fact...
only SSJ.
So, as you can see AT decided to draw SSJ Gohan with SSJ 2 hair, which ruins the theory of Gohan being SSJ 2, because of having only 1 strand of hair.

You can't use Gohan's hair as an indicator, considering it's inconsistent, or Gohan apparently had a haircut before the tournament. Previously, when training with Goten, he has one bang, but after that, he has one bang in both SSj and SSj2.

And that's why I posted those pics.

[Fox666]

Fox666
All those examples are good, but you left out Super Saiyan Gohan at the 25th tournament.
His hair looks like a SSJ 2...
but he is in fact...
only SSJ.
So, as you can see AT decided to draw SSJ Gohan with SSJ 2 hair, which ruins the theory of Gohan being SSJ 2, because of having only 1 strand of hair.

Excuse me, but I did not understand why you said he was "only SSJ". If you can explain me...

[dbgtFO]

Fox666
All those examples are good, but you left out Super Saiyan Gohan at the 25th tournament.
His hair looks like a SSJ 2...
but he is in fact...
only SSJ.
So, as you can see AT decided to draw SSJ Gohan with SSJ 2 hair, which ruins the theory of Gohan being SSJ 2, because of having only 1 strand of hair.

Excuse me, but I did not understand why you said he was "only SSJ". If you can explain me...

In all those panels he doesn't have lightning, which he has, when he goes beyond Super Saiyan vs. Kibito, which takes place only 2 chapters after he went SSJ, so it doesn't seem like Toriyama just forgot to give him lightning in that one instance, but rather made Gohan's SSJ hair look just like Gohan's SSJ 2 hair(with 1 strand of hair instead of 2).

[rereboy]

As proven in the Cell tournament, FPSSJs are able to fight an opponent around Cell`s power and stand their ground if that opponent is not taking them very seriously.

Gohan had a very short battle with Dabura, after which Dabura said that he was confident that he could take Gohan from what he could tell from their previous encounter.

This tells us that Dabura was not fighting at his very best, his full power, when he fought Gohan.

Goku also stated that Dabura was around Cell`s power.

This fits logically with what happened in the fight. Dabura had the upper hand against Gohan the whole time, while Gohan seemed to be struggling to keep up.

Given what was shown to us in the Cell tournament, this fits with the notion that a FPSSJ can stand his ground against an opponent around Cell`s power if that opponent is not taking them very seriously, although the opponent gets the upper hand in the fight.

As for Goku saying that Dabura was tougher than he thought when Dabura fought Gohan, he said specifically: "So he uses magic, huh? He`s tougher than I thought".
As you can see, Dabura is only tougher than Goku thought because he is able to use magic beyond his stone spit, not because he was stronger than Goku thought.

Therefore, its perfectly possible for Gohan to just have been just using his SSJ against Dabura, without it contradicting anything. As for the reason why, besides Gohan being out of practice, Gohan states specifically that he is afraid of becoming like he was when he fought Cell, so he kind of has a mental block regarding turning SSJ2 in a live or death situation since that got his dad killed.

So, since its perfectly possible and logical for Gohan to have fought Dabura with just his SSJ, and since Toriyama didn`t forget the lightning in SSJ2 Goku or SSJ2 Vegeta, the odds of Gohan being intended to be at SSJ2 are very little, in my opinion. Its far more likely that he only used SSJ.

The real inconsistency is Kaioshin`s lack of ability in reading Ki and understanding just how strong a person with that ki is. He should have realized immediately when Gohan transformed into SSJ2 at the tournament that they were beyond his level. Instead, he had to see them fight in their base and SSJ states to realize just how powerful they had to be at their full power and to take Gohan to his planet and make him remove the sword. But that inconsistency was probably for the sake of the plot and to further demonstrate just how better Goku and the gang are compared to Kaioshin.

(And yes, Gohan`s hair is inconsistent, it can`t be used as an indicator for anything).

[Kaboom]

Don't forget that Super Saiyan transformations require practice to use freely. Gohan has not been practicing with Super Saiyan 2, which means that to make the transformation now he either requires considerable time and effort (like when he stood around against Kibito) or the proper emotional motivation (his constant encouragement from Goku to "get angry"). If neither one of those were sufficiently accessible for Gohan against Dabra, then it's very possibly a matter of that he couldn't transform further, rather than he simply didn't.

[rereboy]

Don't forget that Super Saiyan transformations require practice to use freely. Gohan has not been practicing with Super Saiyan 2, which means that to make the transformation now he either requires considerable time and effort (like when he stood around against Kibito) or the proper emotional motivation (his constant encouragement from Goku to "get angry"). If neither one of those were sufficiently accessible for Gohan against Dabra, then it's very possibly a matter of that he couldn't transform further, rather than he simply didn't.

That (his lack of practice) and his fear of becoming like he was at Cell`s tournament and screw things up again in a situation of life and death, are more than enough to cause him great difficulty in turning SSJ2 and preventing him from doing so.

[astrallite]

Also Gohan told Kibito he was going to "show him one level ABOVE super saiyan" which indicates that he's pulling a trick out of his bag. If he was SSJ2 earlier when raging at the Videl fight it would not make this comment special.

His SSJ (fully powered) and SSJ2 hair are exactly identical. Otherwise you can't explain, Vegeta either.

[Fox666]

In all those panels he doesn't have lightning, which he has, when he goes beyond Super Saiyan vs. Kibito, which takes place only 2 chapters after he went SSJ, so it doesn't seem like Toriyama just forgot to give him lightning in that one instance, but rather made Gohan's SSJ hair look just like Gohan's SSJ 2 hair(with 1 strand of hair instead of 2).

Again, I don't see the point of you posting these images as if they prove anything.

My entire post was about looking at the hair instead of lightning.


And I believe Toriyama did NOT made the hair look the same.



Here is when Gohan show his SSJ2 form to Kibito. As you can see in the 1st panel of the 1st page, Gohan does has the fringe while in SSJ.

[Savage68]

As for Goku saying that Dabura was tougher than he thought when Dabura fought Gohan, he said specifically: "So he uses magic, huh? He`s tougher than I thought".
As you can see, Dabura is only tougher than Goku thought because he is able to use magic beyond his stone spit, not because he was stronger than Goku thought.

Magic doesn't make someone stronger. The two comments were separate of each other.

[dbgtFO]

As for Goku saying that Dabura was tougher than he thought when Dabura fought Gohan, he said specifically: "So he uses magic, huh? He`s tougher than I thought".
As you can see, Dabura is only tougher than Goku thought because he is able to use magic beyond his stone spit, not because he was stronger than Goku thought.

Magic doesn't make someone stronger. The two comments were separate of each other.

Rereboy made that comment, not Godo.