deleted

[Fox666]

Also Gohan told Kibito he was going to "show him one level ABOVE super saiyan" which indicates that he's pulling a trick out of his bag. If he was SSJ2 earlier when raging at the Videl fight it would not make this comment special.

Gohan was inside that room, Kibito wasn't seeing him.

[rereboy]

As for Goku saying that Dabura was tougher than he thought when Dabura fought Gohan, he said specifically: "So he uses magic, huh? He`s tougher than I thought".
As you can see, Dabura is only tougher than Goku thought because he is able to use magic beyond his stone spit, not because he was stronger than Goku thought.

Magic doesn't make someone stronger. The two comments were separate of each other.

Like I said in another topic, Goku is clearly speaking of his magic in that sentence, since he says in one text balloon "So he uses magic" and right in the next text balloon, without it being interrupted by anything, he says "he`s tougher than I thought". The two text ballons are even in the same panel, by the way. So he clearly is speaking about his magic. And magic is not Ki. But it can make you more dangerous as an opponent, more formidable, "stronger" overall.

Take two fighters with the exactly the same level of Ki and power. But one of them has magic that rivals that of Babibi. Who is stronger? Who will win? The one with magic of course. He ends up being the more powerful one of the two, the "stronger" or "tougher" of the two, simply because of his magic, even though they have the same Ki. The magic gives him an advantage that is independent of his Ki but that is a factor when we are considering how powerful or strong a character is overall.

[Savage68]

DB characters don't take one another's extraneous / miscellaneous abilities into an equation of how powerful they are, and don't be mistaken -- Goku was talking about power, not how "threatening" of an enemy Dabura was. To bring up the Babidi example again, here we have a wizard that can work some of the most powerful black magiks in the universe; magic that's powerful enough to blot out his physical shortcomings and turn him into a universal threat. Was he ever even remotely described as being "strong," "powerful," or even "tough?" I'm almost entirely sure that he wasn't, and that when his magic was being cited, it was made explicitly clear that "Babidi's magic [was] powerful," not that "Babidi himself [was] powerful." Again, magic doesn't make someone stronger. It's obvious to me that Goku was simply impressed with Dabura's general performance.

[Super Vegito]

Here's two images of SSJ 1 and SSJ 2 comparisons for Gohan and Vegeta, for you guys to consider...

Vegeta:
http://www.imgplace.com/img221/7243/36screen0.png

Gohan:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1347/70screen1.png

As you can see, Gohan's hair isn't that different. The only indicator of SSJ 2, is the lightning.

And Vegeta's hair... well... I don't know.

[Nazi Cola]

Vegeta's hair actually does get spikier if you look closely.

[Super Vegito]

Yeah, but I was referring to a comment made earlier about Vegeta's hair being just as spikey, as a full powered SSJ 1. So I don't know what to make of it. None of these images I posted are drawn by AT (as far as I know), so who knows. But from what I can tell, the artwork is accurate and up to standards.

Heres another comparison:

(Left) Base Gohan Ultimate Gohan (Right)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2774/50screen2.png

Again, only one bang.

[astrallite]

Vegeta has identical hair between powered SSJ and SSJ2. Powered SSJ has the wavy aura, SSJ2 has the aura with outward lines and electric sparks.

Gohan's AURA when fighting Dabura is exactly the same as Vegeta's in Powered SSJ. I don't know how much more obvious you need to be.

SSJ2 Aura:

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3435/ssj2aura.gif
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8996/ssj2aura2.gif

SSJ Aura

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9348/ssj1aura.gif

[Ahiru77]

SSJ2 Gohan not having the lightning is like a SSJ not having gold hair, nobody's convinced.

[Son_Gohan]

At some point the Daizenshuu states that Gohan fought against Dabura in his SSJ2 form. However, it seems like the Daizenshuu contradicts itself in a later point.

The major issue is that there is no lightning spark thing coming from Gohan as expected from a SSJ2.


I believe it's possible for Gohan being a SSJ2.

If we look at Cell after he return, it's clear that the lightning are related to his power. Also Vegetto displayed that in his SSJ power.

And since Gohan is the weakest SSJ2 seen, that would be the reason he don't have the lightning effect all time.


I was looking at the manga, and I believe I found a difference beetween Gohan SSJ and SSJ2 hair.

None of this is really new.

Lightning and hair are always the primary indicators for both sides, and the trait a person will go by depends on the position they feel most strongly for. Anyone here stating the specific form Gohan was using during the fight with Dabura, as if it's some canonically-confirmed fact are only being guided by their own personal theories on it. If it were so blatant, this debate wouldn't be going on for this long, as both viewpoints are definitely "possible" (and only one of which being explicitly stated).

[astrallite]

The only real "proof" that people have used is that Toei doesn't always show the electricity with SSJ2...

Somehow they reverse engineered that to TORIYAMA HIMSELF must have also decided not to show electricity sometimes...because...just because.

...this is the same Toei that uses the same shaped aura for every character, human, alien, saiyan, regardless of power level, and just varying the color...

[rereboy]

DB characters don't take one another's extraneous / miscellaneous abilities into an equation of how powerful they are, and don't be mistaken -- Goku was talking about power, not how "threatening" of an enemy Dabura was. To bring up the Babidi example again, here we have a wizard that can work some of the most powerful black magiks in the universe; magic that's powerful enough to blot out his physical shortcomings and turn him into a universal threat. Was he ever even remotely described as being "strong," "powerful," or even "tough?" I'm almost entirely sure that he wasn't, and that when his magic was being cited, it was made explicitly clear that "Babidi's magic [was] powerful," not that "Babidi himself [was] powerful." Again, magic doesn't make someone stronger. It's obvious to me that Goku was simply impressed with Dabura's general performance.

The only thing stated about babidi was that his magic was very powerful but he was an weakling in all other aspects. Since magic really is his only power, it makes sense to describe him like that.
Dabura, however, is not like that. He is very powerful in every aspect and to top it off, he also uses a significant amount of magic, which was something Goku couldn`t estimate before watching him fight, since Goku can only read ki-based power, and he was obviously impressed by it.

But hey, if you can see Goku say "So, he uses magic; He`s tougher/stronger than I thought" in the same panel, without anything interrumpting his statements, and state that Goku can`t possibly be refering to his magic, than I have no idea what to say to you... I mean, its so obvious what he is trying to say... But hey, you can think whatever you want, I won`t even try to talk you out of it.

[Savage68]

But hey, if you can see Goku say "So, he uses magic; He`s tougher/stronger than I thought" in the same panel, without anything interrumpting his statements, and state that Goku can`t possibly be refering to his magic, than I have no idea what to say to you...

No one said that Goku "couldn't possibly" be referring to magic. I've only explained to you why it's a far reach for straws to do so.

[rereboy]

But hey, if you can see Goku say "So, he uses magic; He`s tougher/stronger than I thought" in the same panel, without anything interrumpting his statements, and state that Goku can`t possibly be refering to his magic, than I have no idea what to say to you...

No one said that Goku "couldn't possibly" be referring to magic. I've only explained to you why it's a far reach for straws to do so.

I believe its way more "reach for straws" to think he is not refering to magic in that panel, given his two uninterrupted sentences in that panel.
But, anyway, at least you are saying that its possible that he is refering to magic. That`s enough for me. And just to be clear, I also think that its possible that he is not refering to magic, but given what he said, specifically mentioning his magic, I think that is far more unlikely.

[Savage68]

"Uninterrupted," yet separated from each other. Hah.

[rereboy]

"Uninterrupted," yet separated from each other. Hah.

And...? That does mean he stopped talking about his magic and started to talk about something else in between the two text ballons, even though they are in the same panel? The fact that they are in separate ballons doesn`t mean anything by itself, especially since they are in the same panel and no other sentence interrupts them. If they were in seperate panels, I would agree, but not like this.

[Savage68]

Alright. Just know that when I see Goku cite a past enemy's power to explain Dabura's meaninglessness, then later realizes that he can use magic (that had been ineffectual), then, for seemingly NO reason at all, is given a separate speech bubble to mention that Dabura's stronger than he thought... all in conjunction with the fact that such a pointless and self-defeating extrapolation has never been made before -- I'm going with the simplest answer. "He's stronger than I thought" means "He's stronger than I thought." This absolutely requires that he was able to sense Gohan and Dabura's power and tell just how strong they were.

[rereboy]

If Cell suddenly showed that he was able to use magic techniques, I would have no trouble with the gang and Goku thinking or saying that Cell was stronger than they thought after saying "so, he can use magic techniques".

This is pretty much how I regard the issue.

Otherwise, why make Goku talk specifically about his magic? Why not just one text bubble saying that Dabura was stronger than he thought? Why talk about specifically about his magic moments before?

Anyway, that is how I view it.

[Savage68]

If Cell suddenly showed that he was able to use magic techniques, I would have no trouble with the gang and Goku thinking or saying that Cell was stronger than they thought after saying "so, he can use magic techniques".

That's exactly the crux of this argument. Out of all the magic users, or foes who've used what was seemingly (and, for all intents and purposes) magic, not once have they ever responded with a HE'S STRONGER THAN WHAT I FIRST FIGURED! retort. It doesn't help that comparing Dabura to Cell eliminates the idea that magic / shifty techniques was ever a factor in Goku's mind in the first place.

[rereboy]

If Cell suddenly showed that he was able to use magic techniques, I would have no trouble with the gang and Goku thinking or saying that Cell was stronger than they thought after saying "so, he can use magic techniques".

That's exactly the crux of this argument. Out of all the magic users, or foes who've used what was seemingly (and, for all intents and purposes) magic, not once have they ever responded with a HE'S STRONGER THAN WHAT I FIRST FIGURED! retort. It doesn't help that by comparing Dabura to Cell eliminates the idea that magic / shifty techniques was ever a factor in Goku's mind in the first place.

We are going in circles here... I`ve already responded to that.

Dabura is the first character in Dragon Ball to be both strong in ki and strong in magic.

All the others were weak and were considered weak but they tried to use their superior ability in magic to make up for their shortcomings in power (ki-wise). Even with their magic, it wouldn`t be that correct to call them strong given their obvious shortcomings in strength.

Dabura is the first balanced character in Ki and magic, and in that situation, his magic is surely an advantage in a fight with a fighter that is not that much powerful than him ki-wise, like Gohan was.

But I feel that this is over complicating the issue, really. The two sentences in question are pretty straight forward in my opinion in what they mean. And Dragon Ball rarelly intends for the reader to look at it that hard, so, I`ll leave the issue at that: ["So, he uses magic." "He is stronger than I thought".]

[Savage68]

Dabura is the first character in Dragon Ball to be both strong in ki and strong in magic.

Of course he wasn't. Devilman was one of Baba's elite, yet had a nigh-unstoppable magical ability in the Devilmite beam. Was that a credit to his strength? No. Chaozu was the first character to work telekinesis, but was that a credit to his strength? What about Tenshinhan and his flight? Or Ginyu, and his Body Change? These are all cases of already-capable fighters later revealing powers that operate independently of their own power, and a "stronger" comment, scene or line is mysteriously absent form each and every one of them.

Also, Dabura was first estimated to be about as strong as Cell, so if the person who made the estimation later retracts / corrects it, saying that Dabura's stronger than what they first thought, it means that Dabura's miscellaneous abilities were always out of the question, because they were never a factor in the initial question. The correction wouldn't have any place, otherwise.

By the way... whoever said that Dabura's magic was "strong?"