Disproving the 120 number

[Bussani]

Kuririn instantly knows that the Namekian warriors haven't brought out their full power yet, too, and wonders why Freeza's men can't figure it out. I don't think it's some magical extra sense that the Earthlings have--in my opinion, this only diminishes what a skill it is. It's something that comes from battle experience, and Ginyu and Freeza seem to have it more than the rest of their men, even though they can't sense ki at all.

By the logic, if the SSJ transformation increased your power by 50 times, and Goku without the Kaioken landed a kick on Freeza's face, logically Freeza should have around 1/50 of his power right after he transformed...

Pretty much. If he was just toying with Goku, he could have been using as little as 3-4% of his "100% full power", which is about 1/30~1/40. That's assuming the Daizenshuu's right about his full power being 120,000,000. I don't see a problem with this, personally. In fact...

• Final form Freeza starts out at around 4,000,000
• Transforms to Third form, halving his power to around 2,000,000
• Transforms to Second form, halving his power to around 1,000,000
• Transforms to First form, reducing his power to 530,000

It's laid out pretty neatly if you do it that way. I wonder if it leaves enough space in between to account for Vegeta and Piccolo's strengths.

[Nazi Cola]

Kuririn instantly knows that the Namekian warriors haven't brought out their full power yet, too, and wonders why Freeza's men can't figure it out. I don't think it's some magical extra sense that the Earthlings have--in my opinion, this only diminishes what a skill it is. It's something that comes from battle experience, and Ginyu and Freeza seem to have it more than the rest of their men, even though they can't sense ki at all.

By the logic, if the SSJ transformation increased your power by 50 times, and Goku without the Kaioken landed a kick on Freeza's face, logically Freeza should have around 1/50 of his power right after he transformed...

Pretty much. If he was just toying with Goku, he could have been using as little as 3-4% of his "100% full power", which is about 1/30~1/40. That's assuming the Daizenshuu's right about his full power being 120,000,000. I don't see a problem with this, personally. In fact...

• Final form Freeza starts out at around 4,000,000
• Transforms to Third form, halving his power to around 2,000,000
• Transforms to Second form, halving his power to around 1,000,000
• Transforms to First form, reducing his power to 530,000

It's laid out pretty neatly if you do it that way. I wonder if it leaves enough space in between to account for Vegeta and Piccolo's strengths.

It does in my mind, easily. I like this logic, and this post.

[Perfect]

Yes, but obviously x20 Kaioken is more stressful than x10. Look how x3 and x4 destroyed Goku's body when he used it against Vegeta, yet x2 didn't have nearly as much of an impact on his body. But of course, with training he was able to go to the next level. Imagine if Saiyan Saga Goku tried a x10 Kaioken, he would surely explode. However, I'm sure with his x100 gravity training he knows how to correctly and effectively use Kaioken to its utmost potential. As far as we know, he mastered the technique. Goku knows what he is doing, no need to doubt his capabilities.

I understood the point of the high numbers. I stated in my first sentence that they made sense to that point of series. I just said if you considered those power levels beyond the Freeza Saga, they lessen the impact of Freeza's terrifying power.

A few other reasons why I prefer the lower figures is because 12,000,000 seems pretty terrifying and hopeless enough when Vegeta and Piccolo are sporting about 1,000,000 more or less. I think 120,000,000 is overcompensating. Also, the multipliers for Freeza's forms are neat and consistent if his battle power is 12,000,000.

Form 1: 530,000
Form 2: 1,000,000 (x2 previous form)
Form 3: 3,000,000 (x3 previous form)
Form 4 (100%): 12,000,000 (x4 previous form)

On the other hand, it is hard to explain how there is 119,000,000 difference between Form 2 and Form 4. At least mathematically. It just isn't consistent.

The only hole in the 12 million theory, is that Goku's base power has to be 300,000. And we have been debating whether that can be possible. It is all speculation though, as we don't know how much Freeza is holding back, and among other factors.

But it is a fun and interesting topic nonetheless.

It doesn't matter how much he'd gotten used to it, the wrong usage would devastate him. There's a clear difference in numbers and tolls sure, that's painfully obvious and doesn't need to be mentioned. The slightest screw up would nearly kill him. Yes, Freeza's "terrifying power" is supposed to be lessened because he isn't the center of attention. He was used to show how great Trunks was, who in turn was no match for the Artificial Humans. The numbers worked in another way of showing how great the next threat is, also eliminating them in the process. The 12 million bullshit isn't a theory, it was a mistranslation, there's nothing more to it.

Also why would it have to be mathematically consistent? The Super Saiyan transformations aren't, given the various grades of it in-between SSJ and SSJ2. Also, form two isn't one million. It's stated to be "over one million" or "probably over one million", meaning the exact number is unknown. Just like Goku's over 8,000 power level. This isn't even a debate, the 12 million mistranslation is impossible. It's just you hating the numbers being so high with a weak foundation on why.

[Piccolo Daimao]

By the logic, if the SSJ transformation increased your power by 50 times, and Goku without the Kaioken landed a kick on Freeza's face, logically Freeza should have around 1/50 of his power right after he transformed...

Pretty much. If he was just toying with Goku, he could have been using as little as 3-4% of his "100% full power", which is about 1/30~1/40. That's assuming the Daizenshuu's right about his full power being 120,000,000. I don't see a problem with this, personally. In fact...

• Final form Freeza starts out at around 4,000,000
• Transforms to Third form, halving his power to around 2,000,000
• Transforms to Second form, halving his power to around 1,000,000
• Transforms to First form, reducing his power to 530,000

It's laid out pretty neatly if you do it that way. I wonder if it leaves enough space in between to account for Vegeta and Piccolo's strengths.

Yep, it leaves plenty of space to account for Vegeta and Piccolo's strength. You could have Piccolo between 1 mil and 2 mil, and Vegeta between 2 mil and 3 mil.

[Senzu_Bean]

The difference between Freeza's true form and his 1st suppression should be larger than the gap between his 1st and 2nd suppression I believe. That is why I put him this way:

Final form around three million
Third form nearly two million
Second form over one million

[Fox666]

Also, form two isn't one million. It's stated to be "over one million" or "probably over one million", meaning the exact number is unknown. Just like Goku's over 8,000 power level.

Actually the "over 8,000" is meaningless.

Vegeta: "Over 8,000...!"

This is simply a plot device from Toriyama to get rid of the number insignificant details. While Raditz was used to "8,123", Vegeta begin to say "over 8,000" and in Namek saga it would simply be said "8,000". I hope you understand what I am saying.

Freeza, on the other hand is a very different situation

Freeza: "At any rate, my power is excessive. Perhaps I've overdone it... Kukkukku... Incidentally, if [my strength] were put into battle power, it would be over 1,000,000, surely..."

Freeza don't give any accurate measure. Since his high-technology Scouter broke measuring Vegeta's power, I think it's safe to assume that he never knew how exactly he had beyond his first form.

However, in my opinion, Freeza words are likely more on the line of "my power is far beyond 1,000,000" than rather "1,000,000 and few so"

[Perfect]

No, you made very little sense. There's no plot device. They're just numbers that aren't given specifically.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

No, I think he has a point. Vegeta was just rounding down the number on the Scouter, Freeza was making an educated guess.

[Perfect]

No, he doesn't. Because he misinterpreted my context entirely. My point was the exact number for each person is unknown to the viewer on both occasions.

Edit: Don't worry about it.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Oops, I should've read the posts more carefully.

[dbgtFO]

*stuff about Goku using 10x Kaioken throughout the fight*

What Amigo Ten thinks about that opinion:

What do you think?

[Senzu_Bean]

He is right, of course. Nor doesn't he have an aura nor has any reason to assume Goku isn't that strong when the story implies he is.

[Rocketman]

Response:

[dbgtFO]

Response:
*Pic*

I want the continuation of that!

[Nazi Cola]

Those two pictures are godly. I want continuations of both!

[p123]

Yea I would assume Freeza's 120 is probably wrong. Of course IMO 120/150 is way too big of a space to accurately gauge Goku vs Freeza. Freeza fights nearly evenly with Goku also Freeza has lost power as well. So definitley do not agree with the spacing.

But IMO, the best way to determine Freeza's true power would be...


Freeza 1st form 530,000
Initial 2nd form 1,060,000


Now from here, perhaps we should think that a new transformation warrants a 2x boost.


Second Form Full Power 1,400,000


Initial Third Power 2,800,000


Now it isn't suggested that their is any power ups in the third form. So perhaps he went out full blast from the getgo. So that would change things but in the end Third form would be around what 3.2 million or so?


Third Form 3,200,000



Initial True Form 6,400,000


This would help our cause with


Freeza Initial True Form >= Base Goku >>> vegeta >>> Third Form Freeza



Now also keep in mind, that vegeta put all of his ki into a blast against True Form Freeza, and Freeza was never noted to have powered up kicking that blast back...


So the bigger space between Freeza and Vegeta the better IMO..


So something like this...


Initial True Form Freeza 6,400,000
Base Goku 6,000,000
Vegeta 3,700,000
Freeza 3rd Form 3,200,000
Piccolo 1,500,000
Freeza 2nd Form 1,400,000
Freeza 1st Form 530,000



I think realistically, this would probably be on the right track. Surely some adjustments would be needed but the Daiz influenced numbers I use seem way too squished...


Initial True Form Freeza 3,300,000
Base Goku 3,000,000
Vegeta 2,400,000
3rd Form Freeza 2,250,000
Piccolo 1,500,000
2nd Form Freeza 1,400,000


As you can see this grouping is awfully squished...


So looking at the other chart Goku could be at 120x million using KKx20 already, making Freeza 240-300 million certainly plausible.



But this would never work, people are up in arms about powers in 100-200 million range already, nearly doubling or even tripling that would just cause more outrage. it is what it is...

[dbgtFO]

Those two pictures are godly. I want continuations of both!

You'll have to ask Amigo Ten about the first one, since that's the creator.
Amigo Ten also made these: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =6&t=10988.

[Nazi Cola]

Goku and Freeza don't fight nearly as evenly as some people think.

Freeza's hits:
- Knees Goku in the gut.
- Knees him in the chin directly after.
- Punches him in the chin.
- Smashes him while in his barrier after the Kamehameha.
- Elbows his face.
- Chops the back of his head/neck.
- Then kicks him away.

After that last kick, Goku returns with a kick of his own, and from that kick putting Freeza to the ground, he gauges that it's a waste of time and powers down to Base. I know from reviewing the fight that Goku didn't actually get in nearly as many hits as Freeza, but he definitely had the edge, and he definitely thought it wasn't worth his time after that one kick.

Those two pictures are godly. I want continuations of both!

You'll have to ask Amigo Ten about the first one, since that's the creator.
Amigo Ten also made these: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =6&t=10988.

Yeah, I'll have to get over there and beg him for more.

[p123]

Agreed Nazi Cola, what's up with that name by the way?


Freeza is definitley superior to Goku. A definite edge is present, but not so much that Goku is trash.


I generally keep Goku around a 90% of Freeza true form initially.

[dbgtFO]

Agreed Nazi Cola, what's up with that name by the way?


Freeza is definitley superior to Goku. A definite edge is present, but not so much that Goku is trash.


I generally keep Goku around a 90% of Freeza true form initially.

Nazi Cola is referring to SSJ Goku vs. 100% Freeza.
That's why he talked about Freeza's barrier and the Kamehameha.