deleted

[rereboy]

Yeah, I forgot about a lot of those characters, my bad. My silly old memory...

But would it cause any trouble if someone had said that Chaotzu was stronger or more powerful than they thought when they saw his special abilities?

I don`t think so... It would be pretty natural if you ask me.

The fact that someone hasn`t actually said that specific sentence doesn`t mean that what Goku said is not or can`t be refering to his magic, specially after mentioning his magic moments before.
Its a pretty big leap in logic to just assume that, in my opinion. Its, in fact, a bigger one than to just assume that he is still talking about his magic, which seems to me is the more natural assumption.

But I grow tired of this issue. Like I said, I`ll leave the issue at this, since the rest is just over complicating the issue: ["So, he uses magic." "He is stronger than I thought".]

Based on that, everyone is free to interpret what they want. I choose the most natural and obvious interpretation, in my opinion, of course.

(And anything able to affect or cause trouble to a SSJ is strong).

[Savage68]

The fact that someone hasn`t actually said that specific sentence doesn`t mean that what Goku said is not or can`t be refering to his magic, specially after mentioning his magic moments before.

Well, I did say before that there are no "impossibilities" here. I've only been saying what I think is the most obvious answer.

[rereboy]

The fact that someone hasn`t actually said that specific sentence doesn`t mean that what Goku said is not or can`t be refering to his magic, specially after mentioning his magic moments before.

Well, I did say before that there are no "impossibilities" here. I've only been saying what I think is the most obvious answer.

I understand that. We are just disagreeing in what the most obvious answer is. Nothing more. This just goes to show us just how different people are, even in their interpretations and in what they believe to be obvious. Its pretty amusing if we think about it

[dbgtFO]

So in this topic there are two opinions:

Opinion 1. Gohan was drawn, as a normal Super Saiyan, so that means he IS a normal Super Saiyan. Daizenshuu 7 saying he was a Super Saiyan 2 without giving a proper explanation of why he was lacking traits present when being beyond Super Saiyan(weaker aura & lack of electricity) won't convince anyone.

Opinion 2. In the context of the story Gohan SHOULD have been a Super Saiyan 2, since Dabra was stronger, than Cell(arguably Perfect Cell Full Power) and Gohan was significantly weaker, than 7 years ago, so his normal Super Saiyan form would not be enough to deal with such a foe.
If Gohan had an extra form available to him, why didn't he unleash it? He seemed pretty capable of doing it in front of Kibito.
If Gohan was a normal Super Saiyan, why did Goku say, that Gohan had to attain the power he had at the Cell Games, if his Super Saiyan 2 could handle the job quite easily? Is it because Gohan all of a sudden can't transform into a SSJ 2, like he did an hour ago?

This is basically what Opinion 2 is all about:
http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae13 ... 1292319425

[Super Vegito]

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae13 ... 1292319425

Is that real?! I'm not much of a manga reader... it just seems a bit out of character, and more of a fanslation. Excuse me if I'm wrong. o.o

[dbgtFO]

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae13 ... 1292319425

Is that real?! I'm not much of a manga reader... it just seems a bit out of character. o.o

Yeah totally
Seriously no!
Some dude made it to poke fun at those, who think Gohan was SSJ. Those panels aren't to be found on the same page either, so whoever made it rearranged the panels, so we didn't see Gohan and Dabra fighting.

I thought it was brilliant, even though I believe Gohan was a SSJ.

[Savage68]

You all would know the creator as Amigo Ten, I think.

[dbgtFO]

You all would know the creator as Amigo Ten, I think.

I actually didn't know that, but now you've said it I found the thread, where it was posted.
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =6&t=10988
Everyone should check this out. It's fucking BRILLIANT

[ssj5goku]

If you play Dragon Ball Raging Blast 2 and other Dragon ball z game for the ps2 you should known that he is only a ssj1 when he face Broly and Dabura. If you look into the characters profiles they said that he was only a SSJ1 and the reason he didn't go into a SSJ2 the reason is unknown.

[p123]

Here's what I think....

Option 1 - SSJ Gohan vs Dabura

Pros

1) The art indicates Gohan is a SSJ, AT is able to draw probably 30 or 40 pages of SSJ2s with lightning. Also, Dabura's blast has lightning. It's just highly unlikely that AT would forget the lightning by accident, seeing as the chapter is riddled with lightning auras from Goku/Vegeta and hell even Dabura's blast at Gohan!

2) Realistically, Gohan shouldn't be able to transform into SSJ2 of free will. He never trained, being able to transform to new forms is suggested to be something that you have to train, and train very hard. The only exception here would probably be SSJ Goten/Trunks, who seemingly attained SSJ by crapping their pants a little too hard.

3) Gohan speaks about Goku/Vegeta fighting at a level above SSJ in an odd manner, almost in a manner as if he and Dabura are not fighting at a level above SSJ.

4) It makes Goku/Vegeta's comment on Dabura make sense. They both confirm Dabura isn't anything special, meanwhile a couple of pages later Goku uses his burst against Yakon, in which Vegeta feels the need to note that he now knows Goku has SSJ2 as well. Now, if SSJ2 was truly needed to beat Dabura, it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to have to mention that, it should already be known.


Cons

1) The big one. Goku's comment. The only way to make this make sense is if Goku is talking about a suppressed version of Cell, or just speaking about a general range of power Cell has exibited.

2) Gohan just used SSJ2 at the Budokai. Why couldn't he use it here when it counted? The only way to explain this is a delayed rage catalyst. Either the Videl beatdown, or his worry about getting kicked out of school, or a combination of either would be the catalyst of his rage. Seeing how Gohan is shown to be quite angry, has a semi quasi SSJ aura similar to what he had raged out and transformed into SSJ when Videl was being beat up, not to mention the GRRRRR sound Gohan makes just prior to transforming to SSJ2, this one isn't so outlandish. a lot of people do not like the idea that Gohan got angry, calmed down, and was able to somehow save that anger and use it later after calmed down. It's another poor explanation of the events, but for Gohan to be a SSJ it simply has to be true. It wouldn't make sense for Gohan not to transform into SSJ2 against Dabura/Buu unless he couldn't. Which would make sense since Gohan said he couldn't be like before, and Goku telling Gohan to get angry. Also, it appears that Gohan specifically used a delayed rage catalyst to transform into SSJ initially in the ROSAT with Goku. If Gohan can transform into SSJ while thinking about Freeza, which was years ago, it shouldn't be too hard to think that Gohan could transform into SSJ2 after Videl was beaten down just minutes ago. The only problem with that is, why couldn't he be mad a couple of hours later? But either way, this is a complicated issue.



Option 2 Gohan was a SSJ2


You know what? I don't even have to put this, after reading the above, if your not convinced by that logic, you never will be, and there's not reason for me to display this option since it's apparent people will follow it regardless of rhyme or reason.

[painfuldeath]

Here's what I think....

Option 1 - SSJ Gohan vs Dabura

Pros

1) The art indicates Gohan is a SSJ, AT is able to draw probably 30 or 40 pages of SSJ2s with lightning. Also, Dabura's blast has lightning. It's just highly unlikely that AT would forget the lightning by accident, seeing as the chapter is riddled with lightning auras from Goku/Vegeta and hell even Dabura's blast at Gohan!

2) Realistically, Gohan shouldn't be able to transform into SSJ2 of free will. He never trained, being able to transform to new forms is suggested to be something that you have to train, and train very hard. The only exception here would probably be SSJ Goten/Trunks, who seemingly attained SSJ by crapping their pants a little too hard.

3) Gohan speaks about Goku/Vegeta fighting at a level above SSJ in an odd manner, almost in a manner as if he and Dabura are not fighting at a level above SSJ.

4) It makes Goku/Vegeta's comment on Dabura make sense. They both confirm Dabura isn't anything special, meanwhile a couple of pages later Goku uses his burst against Yakon, in which Vegeta feels the need to note that he now knows Goku has SSJ2 as well. Now, if SSJ2 was truly needed to beat Dabura, it doesn't make sense for Vegeta to have to mention that, it should already be known.


Cons

1) The big one. Goku's comment. The only way to make this make sense is if Goku is talking about a suppressed version of Cell, or just speaking about a general range of power Cell has exibited.

2) Gohan just used SSJ2 at the Budokai. Why couldn't he use it here when it counted? The only way to explain this is a delayed rage catalyst. Either the Videl beatdown, or his worry about getting kicked out of school, or a combination of either would be the catalyst of his rage. Seeing how Gohan is shown to be quite angry, has a semi quasi SSJ aura similar to what he had raged out and transformed into SSJ when Videl was being beat up, not to mention the GRRRRR sound Gohan makes just prior to transforming to SSJ2, this one isn't so outlandish. a lot of people do not like the idea that Gohan got angry, calmed down, and was able to somehow save that anger and use it later after calmed down. It's another poor explanation of the events, but for Gohan to be a SSJ it simply has to be true. It wouldn't make sense for Gohan not to transform into SSJ2 against Dabura/Buu unless he couldn't. Which would make sense since Gohan said he couldn't be like before, and Goku telling Gohan to get angry. Also, it appears that Gohan specifically used a delayed rage catalyst to transform into SSJ initially in the ROSAT with Goku. If Gohan can transform into SSJ while thinking about Freeza, which was years ago, it shouldn't be too hard to think that Gohan could transform into SSJ2 after Videl was beaten down just minutes ago. The only problem with that is, why couldn't he be mad a couple of hours later? But either way, this is a complicated issue.



Option 2 Gohan was a SSJ2


You know what? I don't even have to put this, after reading the above, if your not convinced by that logic, you never will be, and there's not reason for me to display this option since it's apparent people will follow it regardless of rhyme or reason.

I agree.

Still, it doesn't seem like Gohan is a SSJ2 in this fight despite the earlier display at the tournament. The only logic I can think of for that is that he's still irritated by the whole Videl thing that he can still easily transform. Maybe he was just cocky and felt the regular SSJ transformation was plenty to deal with Dabura. Ultimately though, I think its just a plot device that he did not transform.

[Godo]

Last time Gohan went SSJ2, his father died because of him. That's why I believe that he didn't want to become a SSJ2. He was afraid of the person he would become.

[rereboy]

Last time Gohan went SSJ2, his father died because of him. That's why I believe that he didn't want to become a SSJ2. He was afraid of the person he would become.

He pretty much states that, when he says he can`t be like he was.

[Son_Gohan]

Last time Gohan went SSJ2, his father died because of him. That's why I believe that he didn't want to become a SSJ2. He was afraid of the person he would become.

Only if you disregard the instance where he chooses to go SSJ2 at the tournament just for the sake of being ostentatious.

[Kaboom]

Don't forget the whole "unpracticed transformations require time and effort" concept!

[Godo]

Last time Gohan went SSJ2, his father died because of him. That's why I believe that he didn't want to become a SSJ2. He was afraid of the person he would become.

Only if you disregard the instance where he chooses to go SSJ2 at the tournament just for the sake of being ostentatious.

Kibito and Kaioshin arrive, two odd looking guys who clearly aren't Earthlings. Kibito asks Gohan to go SSJ. Kibito knows about this thing called SSJ. Gohan looks at Piccolo, who nods as an approval for him to show the SSJ transformation, because apparently this was important.
Gohan decides to show the full extent of his power out of arrogance (probably).

Later, when shit got serious, he didn't transform into SSJ2 because of the fact that he would fuck the fate of the world up (which he almost did at the Cell Games).

Thus, there was a difference between the tournament, where there was no danger around and no reason for his transformation making him to want to make his opponent to suffer, and when he fought Dabra, where he had to stay in control to not screw things up ("too much shaking of Majin Buu's egg may release him" - Babidi).

[Piccolo Daimao]

Later, when shit got serious, he didn't transform into SSJ2 because of the fact that he would fuck the fate of the world up (which he almost did at the Cell Games).

Even though he had learned his lesson from the Cell Games when he only got cocky because he was fighting the guy who was torturing his friends. With Dabra, he needed to kill him so Piccolo and Kuririn would turn back to normal, and even if he did fuck up, he still has two warriors stronger than him who can just kill Dabra anyway.

That's why I don't buy the "he was afraid he'd fuck things up again" theory, as well as the whole "unpracticed transformations require time and effort" concept. He transformed at the Budokai just fine, and we know that villains are willing to just stand there and let their opponents power up, either because they're so cocky they don't think it'll make a difference, or they're stunned in surprise.

My personal belief is that Toriyama chose not to make Gohan turn Super Saiyan 2 because he wanted to hype up Goku and Vegeta as being even more amazing in comparison to Gohan. Remember when everyone was surprised Boo was at full power already and Gohan said that Goku and Vegeta were fighting at a level beyond Super Saiyan, so the damage is greater? I think that, in Toriyama's eyes, the impact of that line would've been lessened if Goku and Vegeta were fighting at the same level Gohan was. Basically, Gohan "lost" SSj2 to make Goku and Vegeta's SSj2 look good.

[Savage68]

Later, when shit got serious, he didn't transform into SSJ2 because of the fact that he would fuck the fate of the world up (which he almost did at the Cell Games).

I think Son_Gohan's point was to address the inconsistency between people who think Gohan used some sort of leftover / residual anger at the Budokai for SSJ2, though he had already reached the pinnacle of his anger backstage, wasn't facing the guy that caused it, and was clearly confident in his ability to transform beforehand. Yet later, in a serious situation, where he actually needs and would benefit form SSJ2, and (most importantly) SAYS that he's angry, he somehow can't make the hurdle and remains in a powered-down state. And if what you're saying is true, it certainly didn't show in the manga, even when Gohan's thinking to himself. He's shaky as hell and obviously wishes to gain power from his anger.

[Senzu_Bean]

Later, when shit got serious, he didn't transform into SSJ2 because of the fact that he would fuck the fate of the world up (which he almost did at the Cell Games).

This make little to no sense. After all what made Gohan act like he did 7 years ago was his anger, like he had show numerous times before, towards Cell not because his Super Saiyan 2 makes him a completely psycho.

[hleV]

I believe Gohan would have went SSJ2 against Fat Buu had he not been KOed during him being confident in his speed. Kibito stated that he didn't fully restore Gohan's energy after it was sucked out by Babidi's henchmen, so we could assume that Gohan wasn't fully able to go SSJ2 or at least didn't felt like being so. Later he ate a Sensu Bean and his energy was restored to its fullest. He decided to give the Buu Cocon a shot with his fully-SSJ1-powered Kamehameha (although I think he said he was angry enough, like the last time, but I may be wrong) before other actions. When Fat Buu appeared, Gohan felt his power and possibly decided that it was no use trying to go SSJ2 at that moment. But he was confident in his SSJ speed, which resulted in his KO.

All in all:

• Usage of SSJ against Dabra - not enough energy to go SSJ2;
• Attempt to destroy the Buu Cocon as SSJ with Kamehameha - not necessary to go SSJ2;
• Confidence in SSJ speed - not necessary to go SSJ2.