How strong did the humans get?

[CatouttaHell]

Due to the fact that they stopped doing much of anything there's almost nothing to base their power on, especially with Chaozu.

Personally I think by the end of DBZ, Tenshinhan was the strongest human with Chaozu in second place, Kuririn in third, and Yamucha in fourth. Chaozu may look weak and have been weak but both Yamucha and Kuririn slacked off after the Seru Arc while Chaozu and Tenshinhan trained together daily for 17 more years.

As for power, everyone here will probably disagree with me but I'd put both Tenshinhan and Chaozu at stronger than Son Goku was against Freeza. Not sure about the other two.

[Savage68]

Who knows. I doubt if any of the human fighters had ever even surpassed Freeza's 1st form.

[Rocketman]

I'd put both Tenshinhan and Chaozu at stronger than Son Goku was against Freeza. Not sure about the other two.

Are you serious? You really think that Tien and Chaozu faffing about in the woods would equal training in 100x gravity and a massive Super-Saiyan-preparation zenkai?

[Kaboom]

Who knows. I doubt if any of the human fighters had ever even surpassed Freeza's 1st form.

Seconded. Saying they breeched 100,000 would be giving them appropriate credit, I think.

Kuririn already got mega-boosted by the Grand Elder the most of the way there; it's just a matter of how long it would take for the others to catch up. Yamcha and Chaozu 99.999999% definitely never did, but Tenshinhan would probably surpass Kuririn at some point after the guy retired.

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm just going to quote myself in here of a post I made on a thread similar to this:

- Dr. Gero (or was it #19?) mistook Yamcha for Goku. As we know Dr. Gero calculated Goku, and everybody, increases in those years but only when Goku turned Super Saiyan Dr. Gero admitted his power exceeded those of his calculations. What this does tell us? Goku's base power was within Dr. Gero's calculations and thus the increase Goku had in Namek was everything but abnormal. This ties up perfectly with Krillin assumption, that near death power-ups is the reason why Goku have always been one step ahead of the Earthlings.

- Tenshinhan, and to a less extent Krillin, is astonished how the Super Saiyans and Piccolo far outclassed him but in no instance comment how far outclassed he is by the Saiyans, if he is supposed to be 100,000 and Goku 5,000,000. Adding to it Krillin comments how it sucks not being a Super Saiyan and Tenshinhan, three years before, admits how Goku is now indeed superior to him but only after him achieved Super Saiyan. What these do tell us? The power base Saiyans attain isn't out of realm for the Earthlings to attain, contrary to Super Saiyan power.

- "I didn't let Chaotzu come. To be honest, he isn't strong enough." Tenshinhan informs Goku why Chaotzu isn't among them. Going by this sentence at least Tenshinhan has to be at a level of power that he considers strong enough to help and 100,000 isn't helpful in this situation. Looking at the fight against Freeza someone less than 100,000 is helpful against an half million opponent but useless against someone over 1,000,000. Considering everybody knew the Artificial Humans are supposed stronger than Freeza, going into the battle with a level of 100,000 claiming himself useful is ridiculous.

- Goku and Piccolo considered Krillin, Tenshinhan, etc. useful against the Artificial Humans. If the Earthlings are defenseless against the Artificial Humans Goku would advise them to retreat just like he did to Krillin when facing Babidi, Dabura, etc.

- Last but not least Tenshinhan hold freaking Cell with Shin Kikoho, when this same move (according to the Daizenshuu the Shin Kikoho is equal to regular Kikoho, except it continuously fires the kiai-type Kihoho) didn't even fazed Nappa and only wrecked his armour.

As for my personal opinion the fight in movie 9 between Trunks & Tenshinhan is actually a decent measurement of Tenshinhan power in that period of time. Although I would only make Trunks turn Super Saiyan cause of Shin Kikoho not because of Tenshinhan powering-up.

I like to think Chaotzu is comparable to Krillin by the time of the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, like he was back at the 22nd TB.

And Tenshinhan is the only guy on the story capable of train with three guys equals to him.

[Nazi Cola]

Who knows. I doubt if any of the human fighters had ever even surpassed Freeza's 1st form.

Thirded. I honestly, honestly don't see how they would ever come close to his 4th form, as some people like to advocate.

[Bussani]

with Chaozu in second place

I really don't see that happening. He was probably the weakest of the bunch in the fight with the Saiyans. He just doesn't seem to have it in him to catch up.

Tenshinhan surpassing Kuririn I can imagine, but only by the Buu saga. He'd have to have made some significant boosts over the years to even reach the level Goku was at when he faced off against Freeza, though. I think it would be very generous to say he broke 1,000,000 on the battle power scale, even taking into account the sort of progress he could have made with Kaio.

[Fox666]

Personally I think by the end of DBZ, Tenshinhan was the strongest human with Chaozu in second place, Kuririn in third, and Yamucha in fourth. Chaozu may look weak and have been weak but both Yamucha and Kuririn slacked off after the Seru Arc while Chaozu and Tenshinhan trained together daily for 17 more years.

Even Trunks as a SSJ was useless against the androids. So the statement doesn't make sense at all.

Toriyama simply wanted to give a hole to the humans, despite them being waaay out-classed. He did good after all, Yajirobe, Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Kuririn get a few shots through the Androids saga, despite their lack of powers.


If you want my opinion...

Kuririn is 13,000 at the time of Cell and Buu saga. #19 and #20 thinks Yamcha is Goku based on his power, so I would put him from 5,000 to 8,000. If we keep the proportion beetween them during the Saiyan saga, Tenshinhan should be with 10,000 or 20,000, while Chaos is with just a few thousands.

[CatouttaHell]

I'd put both Tenshinhan and Chaozu at stronger than Son Goku was against Freeza. Not sure about the other two.

Are you serious? You really think that Tenshinhan and Chaozu faffing about in the woods would equal training in 100x gravity and a massive Super-Saiyan-preparation zenkai?

Yes. Son Goku got 20x stronger training at Kaio-sama's place and Tenshinhan and Chaozu both trained there for far longer than Goku did. After this they trained on Earth, using what they learned from all of their previous teachers, for 20 straight years. Considering they were shown training in every single appearance they made which didn't involve them being on the battlefield, it's safe to say they spent all day, every day training.

[Rocketman]

Considering they were shown training in every single appearance they made which didn't involve them being on the battlefield, it's safe to say they spent all day, every day training.

So? It's static training and wouldn't grant BIG POWAH any more than lifting 20 pounds every day would.

[lash]

Kuririn is 13,000 at the time of Cell and Buu saga. #19 and #20 thinks Yamcha is Goku based on his power, so I would put him from 5,000 to 8,000. If we keep the proportion beetween them during the Saiyan saga, Tenshinhan should be with 10,000 or 20,000, while Chaos is with just a few thousands.

I see you forgot to tack on an extra 0 for everyone.

[Makaioshin]

There is really not much to go on. As others have said I doubt they would be more powerful than Freeza's first form. I see Kuririn as the strongest(around Ginyu's level), with Tenshinhan in second, followed by Yamucha, and then Chaozu.

[CatouttaHell]

Considering they were shown training in every single appearance they made which didn't involve them being on the battlefield, it's safe to say they spent all day, every day training.

So? It's static training and wouldn't grant BIG POWAH any more than lifting 20 pounds every day would.

Bejita was shown STILL training in 150x normal gravity, something he was doing back before he even became a SSjin and he still kept on getting stronger.

[B]

I don't think you understood what you were replying to...

[Nazi Cola]

Who knows why Vegeta was training 150x gravity while a Super Saiyan, when just a saga and a half earlier he was training severely in 300x gravity.

Maybe Toriyama realized if he had Vegeta training in 500x gravity or something, and then had SSjin Kid Trunks doing just fine, we'd all bitch about it even more than we do for the 150x thing.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Who knows why Vegeta was training 150x gravity while a Super Saiyan, when just a saga and a half earlier he was training severely in 300x gravity.

Maybe Toriyama realized if he had Vegeta training in 500x gravity or something, and then had SSjin Kid Trunks doing just fine, we'd all bitch about it even more than we do for the 150x thing.

I always chalked it up to Vegeta not actually training seriously in the scene. It seems like Vegeta was trying to have a little father-son time, even if it isn't in a typical form (though I suppose it is for a Saiyan). He kept the gravity on a level he thought his son could handle while he warmed up with lite workout, because Kami only knows how much Bulma would snap if Vegeta had to try and explain why her son is a limp broken boned lump on the floor of the gravity room.

Trunks has likely trained in the room many a times before, but is the gravity still too high? IMO, yes. But since everyone in the topic seems to place the kids as stronger than 18, I suppose 150x gravity isn't that big a deal in retrospect. While the manga may hint to the contrary, I personally always saw the boys around Freeza's level (which worked out nicely with the Jump special. lol).

[In Brightest Day]

I agree with Senzu_Bean's post to a T.

Despite the fact that the humans logically shouldn't have ever been able to get to Frieza's first form (besides Kuririn), theirs actually enough proof to suggest Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Yamcha at least made it to the low millions by the Android arc, IMO. Yamcha's statement at the 25th Budokai to Kuririn's daughter confirms that Krillin was stronger than Tien by the Cell Games (Last time he saw them both and could have potentially sensed their powers). How much power Krillin lost and how much more powerful Tien got are all very unknown quantities anyway.

And how the hell is Android arc Kuririn only breaching 100,000? The increases him and Son Gohan both made on Namek were fucking ridiculous. Did that power-up just coincidently stop for the convenience of the people who don't think the humans could make it past Captain Ginyu? Thats bullshit to say the least.

[cpd12589]

Who knows. I doubt if any of the human fighters had ever even surpassed Freeza's 1st form.

Totally agree. I don't see any of the human fighters surpassing 1st form Frieza. I do believe Tien to be the strongest one by the end of DBZ but that's only because Krillin stopped training after Cell. I'd cap the humans at 250,000 by the end of DBZ. That's considering Krillin was put at 75,000 in V Jump after the fight with Recoome.

[Bussani]

Did that power-up just coincidently stop for the convenience of the people who don't think the humans could make it past Captain Ginyu? Thats bullshit to say the least.

Saichourou said it was only going to release power that he already had.

If you want my opinion...

Kuririn is 13,000 at the time of Cell and Buu saga.

V-Jump puts him at 75,000 when facing off against Freeza, but I guess you don't have to believe that.

Son Goku got 20x stronger training at Kaio-sama's place and Tenshinhan and Chaozu both trained there for far longer than Goku did.

Goku got 20 times stronger because he was training at Kaio's. That's exactly why going back to Earth's environment is a massive step down and would take longer to make similar gains.

Tenshinhan and Chaozu were with Kaio for about 260 days, while Goku was only there for 158. Even if we're generous and say Tenshinhan improved 40 times over in that time, that'd still only make him, what, 72,000? His gains on Earth ("farting around in the woods", as Rocketman put it) aren't going to be anything like that.

Bejita was shown STILL training in 150x normal gravity, something he was doing back before he even became a SSjin and he still kept on getting stronger.

If I remember right, any gravity training we saw Vegeta doing before the Buu saga was filler. But still, I think you're proving the point--Vegeta had to keep pushing himself with higher gravity to make significant progress. It's not that Tenshinhan couldn't get stronger in the woods, but it's harder.

Fact is, the big progress in Dragon Ball is always either made from incredible new training methods, new masters to teach them, or both.

[dbgtFO]

I agree with Senzu_Bean. Go ahead, call me nuts, I don't care. In the context of the story Senzu_Bean's explanation makes the most sense.
Also I'm pretty sure Herms would be disappointed in most of you for using the term "human", when the appropiate term would be "earthling." http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =7&t=13915