How strong did the humans get?

[cpd12589]

Yeah it's technically Earthling but we all know what we're talking about when we say "human" fighter.

It is funny how in the DB world Saiyans were considered humans as well as people like Recoome. I think they should've been put into different classes all together but that's just me.

[Senzu_Bean]

It is pointless saying others are wrong cause there are absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest either thing. It is like the Saiyans' norm. They can vary from slightly over one million to ridiculously stronger than Freeza and yet they do equally to less than the Earthlings.

[Son Edo]

Surpassed 1 million no doubt about it.

[Tenshinhan-san]

Personally, I don't see how anybody can think the humans - meaning Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamucha, Chaozu - didn't even make it past Captain Ginyu or Frieza's 1st Form by the later Sagas.

When Frieza came to Earth, all the fighters - especially the ones sensing him for the first time - were shocked at how insanely large Frieza's Ki was. Gohan and Kuririn then mentioned that even this was far from Frieza's full potential. (Gohan knew how strong Frieza was at 100% while Kuririn knew how strong he was at 50%). Then Future Trunks came and annihilated both Frieza and King Cold. Everybody learned of the androids and how they were even more terrifying than Frieza. After 3 years of training, everybody but Chaozu shows up for the fight. This indicates that out of all the humans at least Tenshinhan must've had the confidence to believe he could be of help against the androids, he clearly thought Chaozu was in over his head at this level, after all. I heavily doubt that Tenshinhan would categorize himself as useful, had he only been somewhere between 20.000 - 100.000. Kuririn's V-Jump level of 75.000 against Frieza more or less supports that, if you choose take it as a valid source. Kanzentai even mentioning it is good enough for me, personally.

Even when Tenshinhan jumped in against the androids - when SSJ Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him against #18 - he didn't even start out with an energy attack, believing that if his punch would connect with #17 it would be enough to at least do some damage. The fact that #17 took the effort of dodging it supports this as well. In the end, we all know the punch didn't connect and the Z-fighters had no true gauge of the androids' powers, but from watching #18 in battle earlier, they must've been able to at least roughly deduce what they were capable of.

Now we don't exactly know to what heights the (Shin) Kikoho would multiply Tenshinhan's power, but I can't imagine the (Shin) Kikoho elevating Ten's power from a 'mere' 100.000 to a level where he could produce enough force to hold back 2nd Form Cell. Keep in mind that #17 and Piccolo (fused with Kami!!) combined couldn't even touch Cell's 1st Form after he absorbed thousands of humans. Tenshinhan might not have really hurt Cell, but he kept him in charge for a good amount of time while Cell was trying with all his might to get free from Tenshinhan's grasp. It wasn't until Ten rapidly lost energy that Cell could move freely again. Also, Cell did show some burn marks/scratches afterward, so I think it at least inflicted a low level of damage. Cell himself couldn't even believe Tenshinhan was able to hold him back. I firmly believe that if either Frieza/#19/#20 would've been in Cell's place against Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho, they would've been toast. I can't conclude otherwise, but to believe Tenshinhan must've at least been in the early millions by the androids/Cell era. I believe Kuririn and Yamucha to be a good deal weaker than Tenshinhan, due to Tenshinhan being far more serious with training and obsessed with getting stronger (and having a training partner in Chaozu), but still I say Kuririn and Yamucha should be in the early millions as well, give or take a few 100.000. Chaozu would be the weakest of the bunch, after all Tenshinhan had him stay back and I don't think he was just being over-protective. Ultimately though, by the Buu Saga, due to constant training with Tenshinhan, I even see Chaozu at least reaching 1 million.

Ultimately, I see the human fighters in the same league as the Saiyans base forms (just that Saiyans get to a certain level quicker). I think that Tenshinhan vs. Trunks - despite being filler - is an accurate display of this.

[Senzu_Bean]

Ki based attacks don't multiply the users' ki. They are the users' ki. They happen to be stronger cause most characters know how to manipulate their battle power. Though Shin Kikoho Tenshinhan fired at Cell was his and only his ki.

And Goku's base couldn't do shit to #20. Tenshinhan would have the same result. Only Piccolo and the Super Saiyans could handle the Artificial Humans.

[Fox666]

V-Jump puts him at 75,000 when facing off against Freeza, but I guess you don't have to believe that.

V-Jump is just a lame information source, I suggest anyone to ignore it. The battle powers there aren't better than videogames or card games.

Most people thinks that the magazine assumes that Kuririn got a "power-up" because he was 13,000 in the Daizenshuu. However it's wrong to made that assumption, there is no reason to think the values here are anywhere related to the ones listed in the Daizenshuu, since none of the numbers coincide.

As far I am concerned, these battle powers of 75,000 and 200,000 for Kuririn and Gohan could very well be settle when they fought the Ginyu Force. Who created these numbers might not know Dragonball very well.

[Tenshinhan-san]

Ki based attacks don't multiply the users' ki. They are the users' ki. They happen to be stronger cause most characters know how to manipulate their battle power. Though Shin Kikoho Tenshinhan fired at Cell was his and only his ki.

What I'm trying to say is that with the (Shin) Kikoho Tenshinhan has a lot more output than with any other attack, be it melee or energy.

And Goku's base couldn't do shit to #20. Tenshinhan would have the same result. Only Piccolo and the Super Saiyans could handle the Artificial Humans.

And yet Tenshinhan held back 2nd Form Cell who was lightyears above #20. Melee combat wise I agree, #20 had the edge on Tenshinhan (at that point). The Shin Kikoho levels the playing field though.

[Fox666]

Tenshinhan did not had a great power. The Shin Kikoho did not harm Cell at all, it was just enough to stop him from moving.

[Savage68]

The Shin Kikoho harmed Cell on a very minute level. Any ki or kiai attack that held enough blunt force to continuously push him deeper and deeper underground couldn't have been coming without pain attached. Cell was seen with scratch / burn marks on him after Tenshinhan burned himself out, so judging by the visual evidence coupled with Cell's grunts of agony, I'd safely say that he was being hurt there.

[Rocketman]

Whether the humans were 10,000, 100,000 or 1,000,000, they're equally useless against the Androids and have no reason to show up.

[Hellspawn28]

Tenshinhan was able to blast Buu in half, Tenshinhan in the Buu saga should be above Freeza's first or second form.

[rereboy]

Tenshinhan was able to blast Buu in half, Tenshinhan in the Buu saga should be above Freeza's first or second form.

I think he never did such a thing in the manga. He just stopped a blast that was going to kill Dende. Then Goku sliced Buu in half with a Kienzan, and Buu`s legs took out Tenshinhan in one kick.

[Nazi Cola]

Even when Tenshinhan jumped in against the androids - when SSJ Vegeta was getting his ass handed to him against #18 - he didn't even start out with an energy attack, believing that if his punch would connect with #17 it would be enough to at least do some damage.

He wanted to do something in the fight with his friends to save the world.

The fact that #17 took the effort of dodging it supports this as well. In the end, we all know the punch didn't connect and the Z-fighters had no true gauge of the androids' powers, but from watching #18 in battle earlier, they must've been able to at least roughly deduce what they were capable of.

Then I guess Tenshinhan's punch must've been more powerful than the blast #18 tanked from SSjin Vegeta?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Just wanted to say Vegeta training in 150 gravity is definitely not filler.

And Krillin being 13,000 makes no sense. Ginyu/Goku wasn't stronger than Krillin.

[Rocketman]

Then I guess Tenshinhan's punch must've been more powerful than the blast #18 tanked from SSjin Vegeta?

You don't understand. Tien trained all the time with Chaozu! That's so much better than gravity training or training with some silly green man or turning your hair gold.

~TIEN~

[p123]

I'm ok with the humans reaching the low millions by the Androids Arc. Then, with Yamcha and Kuririn quitting training obviously they would get weaker, Tien continues training, but IMO Tien didn't improve much.


I have Tien ( Buu Saga ) ~ Base Goku ( against Freeza )

[Nazi Cola]

Then I guess Tenshinhan's punch must've been more powerful than the blast #18 tanked from SSjin Vegeta?

You don't understand. Tenshinhan trained all the time with Chaozu! That's so much better than gravity training or training with some silly green man or turning your hair gold.

~TIEN~

But Goku trained with Gohan and got a lot more powerful!

[Bussani]

Just wanted to say Vegeta training in 150 gravity is definitely not filler.

Yes, but Vegeta training in 300x gravity was, I believe.

But Goku trained with Gohan and got a lot more powerful!

Gohan and Piccolo--and Piccolo had become strong enough to trounce a powered up Android #20 when the time came.

Tenshinhan was able to blast Buu in half, Tenshinhan in the Buu saga should be above Freeza's first or second form.

Yeah, that wasn't in the manga. In the manga he stops one of Buu's attack with a Kikoho and then Buu makes a bigger one and he goes, "Oh shit I'm useless now!"

Besides, blasting Buu in half wouldn't be hard to do. It's making him stay in half that's the trick!

To be honest, I'm not against the humans having broken 1,000,000, but what I will say is that their gains would have to have been beyond normal for it to happen.

[EnmaDaiou]

It's definitively depends on our own interpretation of the facts.
At least, basing on canonical facts.

I think power under 20,000 is valid the same as powers over millions are valid too.
Depending on point of view.

Particularly, I'd prefer to think the earthlings (Kuririn and Tanshinhan) reaches their limit about 20,000.
It may looks too low comparing to Freeza or Super Saiyajins.
But 20,000 is a great power. More than Vegeta in his first appearance.

One point that makes me think that way is what 19 and 20 first said when they saw Yamcha.
They though it was GOKU because of his bp.
Gero didn't know about the super saiyajin. So, the last data about Goku should be in Vegeta's arc. And Goku had less than 9,000. So, Yamcha should have something about 9000 on androids arc.
But it's just my interpretation.
I know it's not a proof.

EDIT
In my opinion, to take more and hard training doesn't mean, necessarily significant improvement.
I think there must be a limit. Ant it's not always the one who trained more is the one who gets stronger.

[Nazi Cola]

Just wanted to say Vegeta training in 150 gravity is definitely not filler.

Yes, but Vegeta training in 300x gravity was, I believe.

Nah, I believe 300x gravity is in the manga, but 450x gravity is filler.