Disproving the 120 number

[Savage68]

Goku and Freeza don't fight nearly as evenly as some people think.

Freeza's hits:
- Knees Goku in the gut.
- Knees him in the chin directly after.
- Punches him in the chin.
- Smashes him while in his barrier after the Kamehameha.
- Elbows his face.
- Chops the back of his head/neck.
- Then kicks him away.

The number of blows landed isn't as relevant as, say, the amount of damage those blows inflicted. Goku and Freeza were pretty evenly matched in that regard.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

^Agreed.

I think the distance between their powers was widened once Freeza's 100% power-up began to make his Chi drop. Before that, I see them being very close.

[p123]

Oh ok, didn't know you were talking about 100% vs SSJ.

Yea, they should definitley be on par, rivals at this point. I'm talking about a 95% and up kind of range..

Freeza loses power after the barrier, Goku although damaged, and logically lost power as well, is never stated by anyone to have lost power.

Hell, one could argue that Freeza is even stronger than SSJ Goku by a little bit.

[Kid Buu]

Response:

Does the next page have the Toryi-bot saying "haha fuck you" to Vegeta?

[jackjack]

Hell, one could argue that Freeza is even stronger than SSJ Goku by a little bit.

They really can't, because it's stated that Freeza has been surpassed.

[p123]

When is that stated?

[jackjack]

The page after the one where Goku says he doesn't want to fight anymore.

[p123]

Ok that's fine...


I'm thinking

Goku's KKx20 Kamehameha is exactly like Goku's Kkx4 Kamehameha vs Vegeta.


KKx3 Goku > Vegeta


We know that...


Then we see

KKx3 Kamehameha = Galic Gun


Now, previously I thought the Kaioken messed up the amplification on the Kamehameha, or the Galic Gun on a smaller chance was superior in amplification power.


But now after thinking it over once again, I think Goku's ki was steadliy dropping with the Kaioken and the reason the two blast equal each other is solely because of Goku's drop in power. This would also to me mean that Goku's KKx20 didn't take out Freeza 50% for the same reason Vegeta didn't get taken out. Goku just lost a lot of power.


Which could make


SSJ a 40x boost. I'm thinking I would like to try that methodology out , plus it would be good to have base a little bit stronger I would think. Not to mention widen the gap between Freeza 2nd form and Initial True Form.


Also, it appears that Freeza increased his speed against Vegeta, perhaps Vegeta isn't as bat shit crazy as we thought...



True Form Increased Speed > Initial True Form ~ Vegeta


Well, what do you think about all of that Jack Jack?

[Fox666]

Or the Garlic Gun is more powerfull than the Kamehameha? Vegeta always was superior in blasts

[p123]

So why the need to create BBA and FF on top of his already superior Galic Gun?

I think Infamous 666 brought up a quote that KKx3 Goku said he couldn't win like this, in a way that could imply his power was dropping already...

I'll be back and pull up some quotes..

[Fox666]

So why the need to create BBA and FF on top of his already superior Galic Gun?

Final Flash is waaaaay superior

[p123]

So...


FF > BBA > Galic Gun > Super Kamehameha = 2.2x


Is how you see it? That's some multiplication rate...

[Fox666]

Well, Goku wasn't 416 against Raditz, the same way Piccolo wasn't 1,220 against Nappa. I believe Goku was at least 910, meaning in my mind the Kamehameha didn't really increased Goku power.

I would go further and say that kind of attack don't increase the ki level, it's the attack itself that is stronger.

[p123]

Doesn't Raditz say Gohan's 710 is stronger than Goku?

Doesn't that make the whole taking off the weights to show 408/416 pretty pointless?

So Piccolo is really stronger than Raditz then? If he can produce 1330 and Goku produces 924 off of 910, then Piccolo should be in the 1200-1300 range by your logic shouldn't it?

How come Raditz never makes a note of the uber increase Goku/Piccolo increased off of their 408/416 numbers. He notes the blasts, but not the individual power...

If 1,307 can greatly damage Raditz, would Goku at around 900 and Piccolo probably above that be able to manage a lot more than they did?


I dunno man, I just can't see how you came up with that. Is that those fake VJump numbers you are using I know I seen some guide use Goku at 910 before, are you trying to work your logic around that?

[Fox666]

I simply said Goku wasn't 416. If you check the part which Vegeta and Nappa dispose of their Scouters, you will see they comment that Raditz was defeated because he entrusted on the Scouters.

I use 910 because it was stated in the guides (Goku power in the 23rd Budokai).

So Piccolo is really stronger than Raditz then? If he can produce 1330 and Goku produces 924 off of 910, then Piccolo should be in the 1200-1300 range by your logic shouldn't it?

That goes for the Kamehameha, not the Makankousappou.

How come Raditz never makes a note of the uber increase Goku/Piccolo increased off of their 408/416 numbers. He notes the blasts, but not the individual power...

Because the scouter can't pick up their full power, even while they are fighting. We saw that happening through the series...

If 1,307 can greatly damage Raditz, would Goku at around 900 and Piccolo probably above that be able to manage a lot more than they did?

Well, of both of us, you are the one obsessed with the numerical proportion beetween two fighters. Why don't you tell me?

From the battle with Raditz, does it appear to be a fight beetween two guys against someone with around 3x their power?

I choose to accept the 910 - 1,500 the guides provide. For me the Raditz battle fit these numbers.

[p123]

I dunno, I think the manga shows us a completely different numerical effort than the Daiz does..

In the manga I think this is displayed...

Goku 416
Goku's Kamehameha 924 +

Piccolo 408
Light of Death 1,330

Gohan Rage 1 710
Rage 2 1,307


Raditz is unaware of ki amplification, and Raditz power is probably somewhere in the 1200+ range but probably not too high off of 1200 although a bit above of course because of the Saibamen issue.

Raditz amazement at the 924/1330 numbers appears to be at something he has never seen before, if it was just a simple raising of power, it would make the taking off the weights issue hardly worth showing, and make me wonder why Raditz doesn't understand they raised their power.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

@Fox666: While that issue of Jump does indeed have 23rd TB Goku at 910, Daizenshuu 7 lists Goku and Piccolo at 416/408, with no other numbers noted. How do you explain that?

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu commit a mistake by taking the battle powers directly from the manga.

These numbers also don't fit the general Daizenshuu standards which are all rounded by multiples of 10 (i.e. 1,770 - 1,480 - 10 - etc)

[p123]

I think the Z senshi numbers against Nappa are silly too.

1) Kuririn 1770 against Nappa yet against the Freeza henchmen he's only about 1500. Note Kuririn tells Gohan to power up, never tells him power up 90% of your power.

2) Piccolo at 3500 seems pretty freaking odd considering all the fuss being made about Gohan's 2800 Masenko. Not to mention Kuririn is in absolute awe of this power, meanwhile, never makes any comment about Piccolo's power in that manner. 2800 > Piccolo should be the case IMO.


3) Yamcha at 1480 is just too high. Sure, he should probably be a bit superior to the Saibamen, but this is starting to be a big gap over here. I would be ok with Yamcha in the 1200-1250 range or so 1300 tops, anything over than that is too much IMO..

[Kaboom]

1) Kuririn 1770 against Nappa yet against the Freeza henchmen he's only about 1500. Note Kuririn tells Gohan to power up, never tells him power up 90% of your power.

"About" 1500. Remember, this is still the early, low-level point of the series where battle powers fluctuate back and forth. There's no discrepancy considering Kuririn would simply have to try harder against Nappa than against random Freeza-douches #537 and #8325.

2) Piccolo at 3500 seems pretty freaking odd considering all the fuss being made about Gohan's 2800 Masenko. Not to mention Kuririn is in absolute awe of this power, meanwhile, never makes any comment about Piccolo's power in that manner. 2800 > Piccolo should be the case IMO.

Nobody says Gohan had surpassed Piccolo yet, only that he had the potential to. Piccolo can still be stronger than him at this point, especially considering how fast he's been seen to grow in power at other points.

3) Yamcha at 1480 is just too high. Sure, he should probably be a bit superior to the Saibamen, but this is starting to be a big gap over here. I would be ok with Yamcha in the 1200-1250 range or so 1300 tops, anything over than that is too much IMO.

Don't forget that Yamcha actually won his fight with the Saibaiman. Its subsequent self-destruct was a desperation move.