How strong did the humans get?

[Bussani]

Nah, I believe 300x gravity is in the manga, but 450x gravity is filler.

Oh, my mistake. He did ask Dr. Brief to build him a 300x gravity chamber in the manga.

[p123]

Vegeta is never suggested to have used over 300x gravity.

The humans are hard to judge. But 20k seems awfully low.

I think the humans being in the mid hundred thousands to the low millions is probably the best range or a very accurate range.

I also think humans power is all dependant on plot device. THey increase their power 7 fold from Raditz to Nappa, so what they do every year? That's silly, just as silly as assuming the humans could not keep with the Saiyans at all. Humans generally always surpass the previous villians.

[EnmaDaiou]

Vegeta is never suggested to have used over 300x gravity.

The humans are hard to judge. But 20k seems awfully low.

I think the humans being in the mid hundred thousands to the low millions is probably the best range or a very accurate range.

I also think humans power is all dependant on plot device. THey increase their power 7 fold from Raditz to Nappa, so what they do every year? That's silly, just as silly as assuming the humans could not keep with the Saiyans at all. Humans generally always surpass the previous villians.

IN manga, Vegeta asks to Brief a machine with 3x the gravity goku has used.
It means 300G.

[p123]

Exactly what I said. I said Vegeta is never suggested to use OVER 300x gravity.

Which would mean he did use 300x gravity of course.

Did you not read my post or something?

[EnmaDaiou]

Exactly what I said. I said Vegeta is never suggested to use OVER 300x gravity.

Which would mean he did use 300x gravity of course.

Did you not read my post or something?

I was just trying to show the part where Vegeta asks for a 300G machine.
Only one that value is cited.

Didn't want to say you're wrong...

[p123]

Gotcha. Seeing how you quoted me you can see how I could have been confused. ANd your right, that is the quote.

I don't think we ever see the numbers 300 do we? We know Vegeta asked for it, but did we ever see the 300x numbers? Now that I think of it, I think Vegeta is shown to be training in a gravity chamber with his shirt off in the manga I think, and even if we didn't see it, it should be suggested he was using it likely I would think.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, the 300 is never shown in the Manga.

[p123]

I liked the Funi Dub thing they did with Vegeta/Pocus. Pocus 10x gravity Rarrr!, Vegeta is like heh, 500x gravity is nothing. Or something like that. Even though it never happened I thought it was kinda cool.

[Nazi Cola]

Vegeta is never suggested to have used over 300x gravity.

The humans are hard to judge. But 20k seems awfully low.

I think the humans being in the mid hundred thousands to the low millions is probably the best range or a very accurate range.

I also think humans power is all dependant on plot device. THey increase their power 7 fold from Raditz to Nappa, so what they do every year? That's silly, just as silly as assuming the humans could not keep with the Saiyans at all. Humans generally always surpass the previous villians.

So Tenshinhan went from X to over 120,000,000 in a year or so (from Freeza to Trunks)? Or Krillin, or whichever human you want to use, I suppose. That seems awfully large of a stretch. Going from 250 to 1,830 is a 7.32x increase, but going from (just assuming he'd be under 100,000 after his training on Kaio's) ~100,000 to just 120,000,000 is a 1,200x increase. That is incredible to say the least.

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, I just don't think that last line is true all the time.

[Kaboom]

That's why it's counterproductive to think of training increases in terms of multiplication. It's not nearly so simple. A training method that happened to make you twice as strong once won't necessarily make you twice as strong again now.

[p123]

I believe plot devices are used for power increases. No logic is applied in increases IMO.

They get as strong as they need to bottom line.

IMO

TIEN > Kuririn > Yamcha ( 250 > 206 > 177 )

Remains prevalent throughout the series. It's a little theory of mine, but that spacing should remain continously, at least until the Cell Games when Yamcha/Kuririn stopped training.

If Tien was on Earth doing nothing maybe I could agree with Kuririn > Tien. But Tien is in Otherworld, Piccolo gains great power, why not Tien? I think Kuririn could definitley be 75k-175k range against 1st Form Freeza. And I have no problem with Piccolo being 250-300k range initially on Namek, so I don't have a problem with Tien being somewhere in between there.


So for Kuririn this is what I have...

Namek 172,000
Mecha 242,000
Androids 2,060,000


Something of that nature, while keeping the others ( Yamcha,Tien) always at the same percentage difference as what the scouters shown.

Just a theory, hardly factual, but something I have come to really like.

HUmans are impossible to predict anyhow, so I tried my best to come up with some sort of an idea to create a basis off of.

[Nazi Cola]

But to go from, say, 300,000 to 120,000,000, that's still a 400x increase. Even the Saiyans didn't get that much of a boost from their hax zenkais. I know plot determines strength, but that's still wild to me. And the plot required Piccolo, not Tenshinhan or Yamcha, so I don't see why they would get such an increase like Mean Green.

[p123]

Oh, now I see what your saying. No I don't think the humans need to be included in that particular range.

I think Tien's Shin Kikoho does suggest that he could be in the low millions, the lower you go the more ridicolous the multiplier is...So on either option they are both sucky you know?

What's the big issue with having them in the low millions?

[TheDevilsCorpse]

If Tenshinhan was on Earth doing nothing maybe I could agree with Kuririn > Tenshinhan. But Tenshinhan is in Otherworld, Piccolo gains great power, why not Tenshinhan? I think Kuririn could definitley be 75k-175k range against 1st Form Freeza. And I have no problem with Piccolo being 250-300k range initially on Namek, so I don't have a problem with Tenshinhan being somewhere in between there.

That makes practically zero sense unless you want to chalk it up to a giant asspull... Piccolo was on Kaio-sama's planet for around a week. I don't see how he could have went from around 3,500 to over 200k in that little amount of time.

[Kaboom]

What's the big issue with having them in the low millions?

Go back, re-read the entire Saiyans-Freeza arc, and re-examine all the insane things that happened to Goku to put him even over 50,000 in battle power, not to mention a million. He's a Saiyan and thus grows faster than humans, he trained himself nearly to death in gravity so intense it would insta-pancake most living things, and in the process he abused the near-death-boost system to an extreme degree.

Then tell me the humans could have done that by just training.

Also, training on Kaio's means very little in comparison to all that. All that really did for Goku is finally get him out of the "lower-than-the-lowest-of-the-low" range for normal Saiyans, and let him fight against the "really good" normal Saiyans. On the grander scale, he still wasn't jack squat, and (sans the Kaio-Ken) he wasn't even a match for Vegeta simply by virtue of "royal blood."

[p123]

Look at how quickly grows in power.

Kuririn has a 7x increase from Raditz to Nappa.

He then 10 folds his power with the guru power up.

Then later he fights evenly with a 23k power, more than doubling his power in no time.


Then he is strong enough to to help against 1st form Freeza. Kuririn could very well be in the 75k to 175k range.


I mean, this is all happening on Namek, the plot device powerups are ridicolous in the Namek Saga.

Kuririn gaining 10x the power in 4 years from Namek, is hardly a reach in comparison to what the hell was going on in Namek.

[Kaboom]

Look at how quickly grows in power.
Kuririn has a 7x increase from Raditz to Nappa.

Or rather, it's an increase of only about 1000 "points," by doing the best training Earth has to offer with a group of other humans like him. the group-training is one advantage which Goku lacked.

He then 10-folds his power with the guru power up.

Precisely. Not through training.

Then later he fights evenly with a 23k power, more than doubling his power in no time.

He underwent zero training between fighting Reacoome and fighting Ginyu-Goku, so this can only be a continued effect of the Grand Elder's ritual.

Then he is strong enough to to help against 1st form Freeza. Kuririn could very well be in the 75k to 175k range.

75,000 is his official number for the Freeza battle. Which, considering his growth-without-training mentioned before, is still because of the Grand Elder's ritual having a cumulative effect over time. Had the Ginyu Force arrived a few hours later, he and Gohan may very well have already been stronger than them by then.

I mean, this is all happening on Namek, the plot device power-ups are ridiculous in the Namek Saga.

Precisely. Kuririn was actually ON Namek, and got the ritual from the fat ol' Namek. That explains his power, which still only capped out at under 100,000. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu are not part of that. They are dead and chillin' at Kaio's. They would not get power simply handed to them like Kuririn did, and they're the ones in question here.

Kuririn gaining 10x the power in 4 years from Namek, is hardly a reach in comparison to what the hell was going on in Namek.

Yes it is a reach. Because he's no longer getting miracle-boosts from fat old Namekians. He's just training. There is no longer anything special about his power growth; no more "plot device" to grant him that much strength. He's back to doing "the best training Earth has to offer" which, if he group-trains like before, is going to MAYBE still grant him about 1000 "points" per year.

So how's he reaching "over a million" that way?

[cpd12589]

That's why it's counterproductive to think of training increases in terms of multiplication. It's not nearly so simple. A training method that happened to make you twice as strong once won't necessarily make you twice as strong again now.

That's how I feel. I really don't think the humans got that strong throughout DBZ. It would just make a SSJ1 form look stupid if they did...

[p123]

Your 1000 points theory is just as valid as my 7x increase theory.

Tien's Shin Kikoho being a 2000x multiplier is just as ridicolous as how you think humans being in the low millions is ridicolous.

[Kaboom]

Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho being a 2000x multiplier is just as ridiculous as how you think humans being in the low millions is ridiculous.

The Kikoho has always been ridiculously powerful, more so than its user alone, and now it's possibly got Kaio-Ken-style methods worked into it as well (Tenshinhan: "I can't hope to surpass Goku at the same training regimen... but if I master the essentials of the technique, and add a few twists of my own..."). What's more, it didn't actually hurt Cell at all, and only pushed him back. Yes, he had some scuff marks. Big deal. So did Vegeta and Nappa after tanking Kuririn's big Saibaimen-killing attack, and they were definitely unharmed.

THAT little feat of Tenshinhan's has legit reasoning and possibility behind it. The humans' powers being in the millions doesn't, and is a bit ridiculous.