deleted

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yes, that happened.

[p123]

He used rage to trigger that transformation , he couldn't do it of his own free will. We later see that he tries to use anger to transform to SSJ2 against Dabura, but he is just not angry enough. Also, Goku after witnessing SSJ Gohan vs Dabura, advises Gohan to get angry, in which in all likelihood, he meant get angry so you can transform into SSJ2 and kick Dabura's ass.

[Savage68]

Around and around we go. That's p123 for you.

He used rage to trigger that transformation , he couldn't do it of his own free will. We later see that he tries to use anger to transform to SSJ2 against Dabura, but he is just not angry enough.

I debunked this earlier, P. What you're saying is that he was able to use the form out of his anger toward Videl's attacker, even when he wasn't even fighting him and we had already seen the fruits of his anger, Videl was completely safe and healthy and he was only going into the form to show off, but when he was outright stated to be angry for his rematch with Dabura, he somehow couldn't. Do you really not understand how muddled this belief is?

I mean, we SAW the consequences of that anger; he was an inch away from jumping straight into an ongoing battle to kick the crap of out Videl's assailant. Once Videl was safe again, he very notably calmed down and became relaxed again. When Gohan powers up from rage, it's a spur-of-the-moment thing, basically his anger swelling over; that's how it's always been. You can't just change that around and say that he needs some sort of passive anger to use a form that he's already gained access to.

Also, Goku after witnessing SSJ Gohan vs Dabura, advises Gohan to get angry, in which in all likelihood, he meant get angry so you can transform into SSJ2 and kick Dabura's ass.

Gohan was referring to the power he had against Cell, that he wasn't able to bring out at that point, yes. But that power wasn't SSJ2, because he didn't need to be angry "like against Cell" to use it.

That's yet another reason why that theory falls apart; he and Goku were referring repeatedly and clearly to the way he was against Cell, and were implying that if he could only be that way again, he would easily win against Dabura. What happened at the tournament is never once referenced again. Why? Because it was nothing special. He was already using SSJ2, but had lost a significant amount of strength and thus struggled badly. He had to be the way he was against Cell -- NOT the way he was at the tournament -- to be able to come out ahead.

[p123]

Hey I never said they weren't sucky. It's definitley poor writing. So you tell me oh wise one, why couldn't Gohan transform against Dabura?

[Kodoshin]

I personally subscribe to the theory that it was simply an artistry gaffe. If anything the interviews with Toriyama himself have certainly demonstrated that he is prone to forgetting minor details. Either way it's a strange thing to see have so much discussion.

[Rocketman]

I personally subscribe to the theory that it was simply an artistry gaffe.

For every single panel Gohan is in, even when Goku and Vegeta are surrounded by lightning on the next and previous page?

[Kodoshin]

I personally subscribe to the theory that it was simply an artistry gaffe.

For every single panel Gohan is in, even when Goku and Vegeta are surrounded by lightning on the next and previous page?

Yeah, even though it's hard for me to swallow that they would not touch it up for the volume by volume release. Though that raises the specter of if that practice even happened back in those days, I know it's a common thing now.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

People need to just realize that the Bobbidi saga was...shit.

I mean, you even have Kaioshin stating the following: "His (Gohan) power surpasses all imagination, and may even surpass Boo's. You haven't seen what those three Saiyans can do."

*Later, right before Gohan tries to release the Z-sword, which Kibito believes is not possible for someone like Gohan*

"While you were dead you could not see how incredibly powerful Gohan is."

That's some straight-forward dialogue there; nothing iffy.

In terms of the writing=Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2
In terms of the artwork=Gohan was a Super Saiyan

I go along with the latter because I'd hate to believe AT would purposelly draw Gohan as a Super Saiyan for no reason--but the Super Saiyan 2 camp isn't running on invisible legs here.

[Godo]

People need to just realize that the Bobbidi saga was...shit.

I mean, you even have Kaioshin stating the following: "His (Gohan) power surpasses all imagination, and may even surpass Boo's. You haven't seen what those three Saiyans can do."

*Later, right before Gohan tries to release the Z-sword, which Kibito believes is not possible for someone like Gohan*

"While you were dead you could not see how incredibly powerful Gohan is."

That's some straight-forward dialogue there; nothing iffy.

In terms of the writing=Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2
In terms of the artwork=Gohan was a Super Saiyan

I go along with the latter because I'd hate to believe AT would purposelly draw Gohan as a Super Saiyan for no reason--but the Super Saiyan 2 camp isn't running on invisible legs here.

That doesn't make sense in the end.
If Gohan was a SSJ2 and that incredible against Dabra, that puts Dabra around a SSJ2's level as well.
That same Dabra and SSJ2 Gohan were utterly destroyed by Buu.

Only if Gohan was a SSJ, Kaioshin could have had hope for Gohan to have a possibility to defeat Buu, since Vegeta as a SSJ2 did a good job, whilst Gohan was helpless and didn't do much more damage than, say, SSJ Goten and SSJ Trunks.
If Gohan was a SSJ2 and was beat up that bad against Buu, then what did Kaioshin expect? He certainly didn't have any hope for Vegeta to survive that battle.
Also, the difference between SSJ2 Gohan and SSJ2 Vegeta would be too huge too, comparing with their feats against Buu.

Simply, going by their feats, SSJ Gohan, SSJ Trunks and SSJ Goten are in the same league, and SSJ2 Vegeta much better than them.

So I think that both the art and the writing indicates that Gohan was a SSJ against Dabra and Buu.

But then, in the end, my opinion can be disregarded with the fact that Kaioshin is an idiot.

[Super Vegito]

Why is this still being discussed? He was a SSJ 1 people. Hair bangs are no longer an indicator of Gohan's SSJ form, and AT never forgets the lightning. Why would he now? Especially when a few panels ago, he drew Gohan as a SSJ 2 with lightning, and in future panels, he draws Goku and Vegeta as SSJ 2's with lightning. If it was an error, you'd think it would be fixed by now.

I mean really, what more is there to talk about?

[hleV]

WasGohanSSJ = true;
IsItNonsense = true;
CanWeDoAnythingAboutIt = false;

[Savage68]

Why is this still being discussed?

Simple. There's evidence that's more or less indisputable in favor of both sides. Hence why we've seen posters saying that this argument will never end and why every debate we've ever had about it has reached the conclusion that it simply comes down to whether you value storyline consistency or art consistency more. The only obvious "conclusion" in this debate is that Gohan was whatever form you wanted him to be.

[lash]

Gohan is a SSJ , Dabura is around his level of power. Use whatever logic you want to make it make sense for yourself, but those are undeniable facts.

Off panel he is SSJ 2, so we don't necessarily have to contradict the Daizenshuu.

Shit alright then, lets give this viewpoint a try anyway shall we:

-Full power Dabra is more powerful than Cell after his near death powerup. Supporting Goku's notion that he's around Cell's power, and then clarified stronger than him. This knocks off the "Dabra was only equal to Cell's suppressed state" assumption(yes, it really is a bad assumption).
-Gohan started the fight off as a SSJ2, and had somewhat of a slight advantage against a fully powered up Dabra.
-None took any real Damage(just like when Gohan fought him as a SSJ), but both lost a huge amount of power due to starting the fight maxed out. I guess Gohan was losing power at a faster rate? The two were quickly even soon after.
-Gohan then fights at just the FPSSJ level(to maintain his quickly failing power consumption), while Dabra is simply weakened. This gives Dabura a slight edge.
-Gohan losing a huge amount of Ki supports Goku's action of giving Gohan a senzu bean and directly saying that he must have lost a ton of energy in his fight(because just going by the fight we saw, he looks like he barely if at all lost any power).
-Gohan and Dabra not inflicting any real damage energy supports the notion of not filling up Boo's energy meter too well.
-Daizenshuu 7 fully agrees. Daizenshuu 2 no longer contradicts anything(if it ever originally did), since it only mentions the times Gohan was seen as a SSJ2.
-Oh and uh: Gohan, although not taking damage...gets a slight injury on the head during the off panel fight. This prevents him from doing the smart thing and using his most powerful form against Boo(or at the very least using his most powerful form to run away ffs).

Translation of this would also be helpful(I bug Herms too much, someone else do it):


Can anyone point out any holes with this theory? You just have to go with the huge assumption that they had an off panel fight as 18 and the boys were fighting. Goku's "he's stronger than I thought" quote sounds a bit odd, if we're assuming Dabra is currently fighting at a weakened state when he says it.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Someone should seriously just lock this thread, because I doubt people are actually enjoying this cylical debate for the kajillionth time. Everyone's already made their opinions clear, so can someone put an end to this madness?

[VegettoEX]

I don't understand what the problem is. If you don't like hearing about it, don't read about it. No-one is forcing you to either read or engage in the discussion.

Lord knows I don't read all of the battle power threads in-depth.

(Is someone being a dick? Report the post and it will get taken care of by one of the moderators.)

[dbgtFO]

I don't want the thread locked for no apparent reason either, I want to see, if my extremely far fetched theory, that lash posted on this page, is able to work out.

[Fox666]

Someone should seriously just lock this thread, because I doubt people are actually enjoying this cylical debate for the kajillionth time. Everyone's already made their opinions clear, so can someone put an end to this madness?

If you don't like this thread, what are you still doing here??

[Piccolo Daimao]

Someone should seriously just lock this thread, because I doubt people are actually enjoying this cylical debate for the kajillionth time. Everyone's already made their opinions clear, so can someone put an end to this madness?

If you don't like this thread, what are you still doing here??

I don't know. But I'm leaving now.

[lash]

"While Mister Satan celebrated his championship victory in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, Gohan had been fighting with Dabra…

(Thanks for asking dbgtFO)


Well...had is past tense. There's no arguing with that...Gohan did have off screen fighting. Since no one has found any holes with the wacky theory, I'm going to go right ahead and accept it.

[dbgtFO]

(Thanks for asking dbgtFO)

And I thank Herms.

Well...had is past tense. There's no arguing with that...Gohan did have off screen fighting. Since no one has found any holes with the wacky theory, I'm going to go right ahead and accept it.

ZOMG could it be? Gohan forms vs Dabra... SOLVED!!!?
I accept it, you accept it, maybe in a few days ALL of Daizex' members accept it!!!!
We can always dream you know.