Goku VS Vegeta(Unarmed Martial arts with no Saiyan powers)

[SegaSaturnGamer]

This is the scenario:
Suppose Goku and Vegeta were just regular humans. They have the same limitations as regular humans do;they cannot fly, shoot out powerful blasts, and they don't have the super strength and super speed of the Saiyans. All they have is just their unarmed martial arts skills.

Who do you think would win if they fought under such conditions?
I vote Goku as Goku was already a master martial artist who mastered several different effective martial arts by the time DBZ starts. Vegeta on the otherhand while he indeed does know martial art techniques like kicks, he hadn't master different forms of martial arts and he is so used to fighting as a Saiyan with the powers of that race. Goku knows a whole tons of tricks as a result of mastering several different martial arts(and we never see them in DBZ because he gotten so powerful;in the original DB Goku indeed does different martial arts techniques) including how to fight using a staff. Additionally Goku knows how to fight as a regular human without having to rely unnecessarily on power blasts(see Original Dragon Ball).

Goku wins this match?How about you?What do you think?

[SHINOBI-03]

I'm not sure... I think my money will go to Vegeta. He is from a royal family, and it seems natural to take special training courses from early ages, plus the fact that he is already older than Goku, and that makes him more experienced than him.

[Ahiru77]

Goku most definitely. Vegeta isn't as strategical.

[dbgtFO]

Goku most definitely. Vegeta isn't as strategical.

His second fight with Zarbon surely doesn't show us that...

[Great Saiyaman I]

Goku most definitely. Vegeta isn't as strategical.

His second fight with Zarbon surely doesn't show us that...

I know people will always point out him throwing sand in his eyes, and I have to ask: how is that so super-intelligent? It's just throwing sand, it's not a complex strategical move. Really, it's less Vegeta being smart and more Zarbon being stupid for not avoiding it.

[dbgtFO]

Goku most definitely. Vegeta isn't as strategical.

His second fight with Zarbon surely doesn't show us that...

I know people will always point out him throwing sand in his eyes, and I have to ask: how is that so super-intelligent? It's just throwing sand, it's not a complex strategical move. Really, it's less Vegeta being smart and more Zarbon being stupid for not avoiding it.

Instead of facing Zarbon directly, Vegeta thought up a plan to avoid him and strike, when his opponent was off guard followed up by a massive spam of ki blasts, which weakened Zarbon to the point of Vegeta being confident in taking him on face to face, which he wasn't 1 minute ago.
If that isn't well played/strategical or whatever, then what is?

[Mewzard]

Goku's got more technical skill (even if Toriyama would later forget about that and just go nuts with the beams) from all his martial arts training, but Vegeta's definitely much more of a dirty fighter, he's not going to be afraid to throw sand in Goku's eyes, knee him in the nuts, then hick his head while he's down. So, if Goku can avoid those situations, I would think he would win.

[Godo]

Goku is technically the most experienced fighter when it comes to martial arts, and to add, he knows the after-image technique, which doesn't require ki at all, something that would startle Vegeta and make way for a surprise attack.
But Vegeta is a more violent fighter, always going for the kill. So if Goku slips up, he is done for.

[SSJGoku93]

I would give the gold to Goku. We really do not see any of Vegeta's childhood training (with the exception of in the Bardock TV special), therefor it is hard to estimate his skills in combat without the use of his Saiyan powers. Goku on the other hand, becomes an expert in martial arts while still a child, even surpassing the greatest martial artists of the day. In combat with no powers and skills alone, I believe Goku would be triumphant.

[SegaSaturnGamer]

Goku is technically the most experienced fighter when it comes to martial arts, and to add, he knows the after-image technique, which doesn't require ki at all, something that would startle Vegeta and make way for a surprise attack.
But Vegeta is a more violent fighter, always going for the kill. So if Goku slips up, he is done for.

However Vegeta is used to fighting as a Saiyan. As a human Vegeta would have a hard time adapting to the fact that the human body is frailer than the Saiyan body and incredibly limited in capabilites. Goku, due to the early years in Dragon Ball thinking he's a human and having the conditioning of a regular human martial artist, knows exactly how the human body works and various techniques. I think that while Vegeta certainly would try to use tricks, Goku would win because he really knows how the human body works and its limitations combined with his mastery of human martial arts.

Keep in mind in this VS scenario Iam pitting Goku VS Vegeta as regular human beings without any Saiyan powers including super strength and the like. Basically a pure technical skill fight.

[SegaSaturnGamer]

I'm not sure... I think my money will go to Vegeta. He is from a royal family, and it seems natural to take special training courses from early ages, plus the fact that he is already older than Goku, and that makes him more experienced than him.

However Vegeta is never shown practice any complex formal martial arts. As the way DBZ portrays it, Saiyan unarmed combat seems more on using instincts than actual use of formal skills such as staff fighting and reverse kicks.

I agree Vegeta has the advantage of experience but don't forget in the original DB before learning special powers Goku was already kicking serious ass against multiple capable martial artist and opponents. As often shown even with superweak conditioning for a Saiyan Goku held off against odds that most humans would die from in a fight(such as fighting 10 opponents).

I agree Vegeta is a dirtier fighter and more adept at tricks like blinding an opponent with dirt but Goku is superior in technical skill as a martial artist.

[SegaSaturnGamer]

Instead of facing Zarbon directly, Vegeta thought up a plan to avoid him and strike, when his opponent was off guard followed up by a massive spam of ki blasts, which weakened Zarbon to the point of Vegeta being confident in taking him on face to face, which he wasn't 1 minute ago.
If that isn't well played/strategical or whatever, then what is?

Yup Vegeta with his tricks and dirty fighting!

[Piccolo Daimao]

WTF, my post's gone?

Fine, I'll re-post it in a nutshell. We don't see much of Vegeta's early training, while we see pretty much all of Goku's martial arts training. While Goku is an experienced and tactical fighter, Vegeta's shown to be just as capable in battle as him, plus he's older. I'd say it's a draw.

[cpd12589]

This would be a very very good fight, IMO, and I think Goku would take it just barely in a straight up fair fight. But I believe that Vegeta is more tactical and would end up grabbing the win somehow, since he'd do just about anything to win.

[Michsi]

Personally, I believe Goku is the better fighter of the two by far. First of all Vegeta never struck me as a martial artist, most of his fights seem to fall back to big energy blasts.
It's been pointed out several times in the show that Goku is a genious when it comes to fighting and Vegeta has never shown the level of creativity while fighting like Goku did.

[astrallite]

If all the characters are the same PL, (say 100) I can't even see Vegeta advancing to the Finals to face Goku. Tien has probably the most haxed abilities and if they are in the same bracket, it will be early ringout.

[Rocketman]

Goku is a martial artist. Vegeta is a brawler.

It depends if they're still bound by Bullshit Anime Martial Arts. If they are, then Goku will win.

If they aren't, I give the edge to Vegeta because he fights dirty and Goku wouldn't have the BAMA to protect him.

Worst to worst, Vegeta pulls a knife and guts Goku.

[Kendamu]

Goku most definitely. Vegeta isn't as strategical.

His second fight with Zarbon surely doesn't show us that...

I know people will always point out him throwing sand in his eyes, and I have to ask: how is that so super-intelligent? It's just throwing sand, it's not a complex strategical move. Really, it's less Vegeta being smart and more Zarbon being stupid for not avoiding it.

Fighting doesn't need to be complex. Easy to learn/easy to teach high-percentage techniques, superior positioning and footwork, and some experience will take you a long way in a good fight. Last weekend this was proven when GSP beat Josh Koscheck using almost nothing but jabs and low roundkicks. By the end of it all, Koscheck looked like this:



And that's after the swelling went down a little.

I could say the same from personal experience. I've ended matches against skilled people twice my size by simply moving at the right moment and throwing a very solid jab to the jawline (the "Easy Button").

While understanding what to look for in other martial arts is always a great thing to do to keep yourself from being surprised too much, mastering a bunch of martial arts styles and coming up with super complicated strategies during a fight overloads you with a bunch of techniques you'll never make a part of your Muscle Memory and causes you to think too far ahead in a situation that's always changing in unexpected ways.

As for Goku vs. Vegeta...

Goku learned martial arts already as a child and most of his secondary training from age 12 onward went into becoming better conditioned (Kamesen'nin and Karin), becoming more efficient (Mr. Popo and Kami), and amplifying power (Kaiousama). As the series goes on, Goku's techniques become more and more efficient looking like the transition from Gongfu to Sanda.

Vegeta came from the high class, obviously. He probably had access to training that was not available to most kids. That, and he basically spent his life fighting entire planets where Goku only ever fought one army at most. If anything, experience has taught Vegeta to use high-percentage techniques (which can be seen when watching Goku and Vegeta's first fight closely) and how to really think on the fly as he was likely mostly fighting large numbers of people at once; a super difficult task even if your opponents are weak individually.

In Goku and Vegeta's first fight, Vegeta would be the obvious winner. He had a better grasp of combat than Goku at the time due to being more experienced. In their second fight, I would give it to either one of them as they both developed rather similarly after Freeza was taken out.

[Godo]

Text

You are most probably true about that! Always a pleasure to read your posts when it comes to Martial Arts.

[Perfect]

I'm fairly sure the martial arts Vegeta knows is...Slim to none. His knowledge of fighting seems to be really far chi based, and for that I can't say he'd do too well. At least at a young age. As his experience built up, he gradually learned how to endure, which is essentially the most important aspect of martial arts. A fight isn't won by a single blow, so learn to endure. You also tend to pick up new techniques as you fight new opponents, why? So you can take what's useful and throw away what isn't (You also learn to combat against certain styles of fighting by doing this).

Goku on the other hand learned Kung-fu or something of that nature from Gohan. Some variation problems with Kung-fu, Karate and similar martial arts is that they have styles. Things cease to be intelligent once they conclude, styles conclude (Of course this is taken from a martial arts context). Goku as time went on also gained experience and all such things alike.

Really what it'll come down to is, who's the better tactician or strategist. Now if Dragon Ball didn't involve chi, both Goku and Vegeta would have been focused on hand-to-hand combat. This means that things might or might not change. For instance, martial arts are still utilized even up till Buu, but they're grounded in with chi (Hence why it wouldn't change). However it might being that that's what the story would focus a whole lot more on. Really how that would go down is anyone's guess (Not Toriyama's...a decade or two ago).

So it's anyone's guess on who would win as well. It's 50-50, though I suppose if the Saiyan's way of combat was more....More efficient, then Vegeta would be the obvious winner. Then again you could say the inverse, being their way of combats inefficient. I could probably write a book going into this (A good 600 pages), going into each anime frame/manga panel sequence and analyzing every bit of the content (I just might...One day).