Pros & Cons

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Piccolo Daimao
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Pros & Cons

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:57 pm

While we all love Dragon Ball, we have to admit that the series isn't without its flaws. So, what do you think are the pros and cons of each arc? I'll start off.

Saiyan arc
+Backstory into Goku’s alien origin
+Piccolo and Gohan get character development
+The main character is killed right off the bat, making things seem even more terrifying
+The introduction of the afterlife, expanding the DB universe
+Takes a darker tone for the series, killing off major characters
-The Saiyan arc breezes along a bit fast, which the anime helps to flesh out

Freeza arc
+Freeza and his crew are an entertaining and varied set of villains
+Takes the gang into outer space and onto another planet, expanding the DB universe yet again
+The cat-and-mouse antics on Namek
+We see more of Vegeta’s character during his adventures on Namek
+Kuririn and Gohan’s relationship
+The Super Saiyan
-Namek looks boring, and the "three suns" was just an excuse for Toriyama to not have to draw night scenes
-The constant abuse of the Saiyans’ near-death power-ups
-The cluster of asspulls towards the end of the arc, which added fuel to the fire for fans who believed that this was the intended ending of the series

Cell arc
+The horror-movie vibe first-form Cell gives off
+Goku isn’t the main focus of the story for once
+Although it starts off as a somewhat more clichéd plot, it covers that up by putting its own spin on some of the sci-fi concepts and moving away from it as time goes on
+A throwback to old villains, the Red Ribbon Army
-Although it’s a bit half-assed, what with the link between the RRA and the Androids being lost over the course of the arc
-Poor writing, partly due to the editor’s interference
-Vegeta’s annoying and immature turn of character—a contrast to his character in the previous arc
-Perfect Cell's a bit boring, playing on the same “I want to have fun” objective used for #17 and #18
-The pointless, improbable pairing of Kuririn and #18
-#16 is a boring “villain” who bears similarities to #8
-Gohan’s “hero moment” came a bit left field, with no real build-up (which I think the anime did better)
-The half-assed, last-minute attempt at humour by bringing in Mr. Satan right at the end

Boo arc
+The Great Saiyaman arc
+How the characters have returned to normal lives
+Boo’s an entertaining character, with a nice contrast between being an innocent, childlike being and the most dangerous villain yet
+Mr. Satan and Boo’s friendship
+Mr. Satan gets character development
+The completion of Vegeta’s character arc
+Fusion
+Although Piccolo doesn’t fight, his role as mentor to the kids and his antics with Gotenks are great
-Very poor writing
-The mass of plot gaffs and inconsistencies
-Goten was a one-note, unimaginative Goku clone with no personality (unless you call an extension of Kid Trunks a personality)
-Boo’s regeneration quickly got repetitive and boring
-Shitting on the legend of the Super Saiyan by having two kids get it and yet another SSj form in Super Saiyan 3
-Shitting on Gohan’s character development by shafting him in favour of two kids, his absence for big portions of the story, his laughably short-lived power-up and having Goku be the hero again
-It loses its way for a while and becomes disconnected
-The fact that the second half of the arc, from Gotenks to the end, is essentially one long fight against Boo gets a little tiring
-Kid Boo. A one-dimensional, irritating, bad choice for a final villain
-The rushed ending, with Goku taking off to train some Gohan clone
-An apparent lack of effort on Toriyama’s part
Last edited by Piccolo Daimao on Tue Dec 28, 2010 5:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by SHINOBI-03 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:22 pm

Why didn't you list pre-Z arcs?!
Cons
-Can't really think of any, apart from the minor Kaio-Ken x2 plothole
Wait, there was a plothole about Kaioken X2?!
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:24 pm

SHINOBI-03 wrote:Why didn't you list pre-Z arcs?!
Because it couldn't think of any cons for pre-Z arcs.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Eire » Fri Dec 17, 2010 4:26 pm

Freeza & Saiyan Arc
+Vegeta
+The best villain ever
+Nice background
+Character development. Protagonist getting stronger, but still are far away from Mary Sue
-???

CELL ARC
+Future Trunks
-Sometimes too long

BOO ARC
+Kaioshin
-Who was made to be looser
-Everything Else
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:07 pm

Eire wrote:BOO ARC
-Everything Else
Even Vegetto???

Buu arc
- Piccolo being of no use fighting wise(just 1 fight, where he would win and I would be okay with it).
- Mr. Buu plothole(yes it IS a plothole!!!!!) :P
+ The overconfident Gotenks.
+ Vegeta's character development.
+ Mr. Satan being helpful.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Eire » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:29 pm

Even. I can't imagine what most of people find interesting in him.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by astrallite » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:32 pm

Vegetto just looks like Goku with Vegeta-ish voice. I mean it looks like every fusion involving the two looks like Goku, even though he is the air headed one.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Great Saiyaman I » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:54 pm

Eire wrote:Even. I can't imagine what most of people find interesting in him.
And yet you find Kaioshin, a being who's supposed to be the most powerful and yet turns out to be weak and bland, a plus?
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Scarz » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:17 pm

Buu Arc
+Vegetto

-Gotenks

Funny how the two balances itself out.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Goku100xKamehameha » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:19 pm

SHINOBI-03 wrote:Why didn't you list pre-Z arcs?!
Cons
-Can't really think of any, apart from the minor Kaio-Ken x2 plothole
Wait, there was a plothole about Kaioken X2?!
The first time Goku uses Kaio-ken at Vegeta, he got his ass kicked and then, the second time he uses the Kaio-ken and yell "Kaio-ken x2", he got the upper hand. So there's actually a level of Kaio-ken, that's even lower than x2?

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Ahiru77 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:33 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:While we all love Dragon Ball, we have to admit that the series isn't without its flaws. So, what do you think are the pros and cons of each arc? I'll start off.

SAIYAN ARC

Pros
-Interesting plot, and nice backstory into Goku's alien origin
-Character development in Gohan and Piccolo
-The Kaio-Ken
-Vegeta

Cons
-Can't really think of any, apart from the minor Kaio-Ken x2 plothole

FREEZA ARC

Pros
-Freeza, arguably the best villain in the series
-Takes the gang into outer space and onto another planet
-Vegeta's exploits on Namek
-The hunt for the Dragon Balls
-Comedy in the form of the Ginyu Force

Cons
-A cluster of asspulls towards the end of Freeza arc, which added fuel to the fire for fans who believed that the Freeza arc was the intended ending of the series
-Namek's boring as fuck, and the "three suns" thing was just an excuse for Toriyama to not have to draw night scenes

CELL ARC

Pros
-A throwback to old villains the Red Ribbon Army
-Mixes things up and has someone else be the hero for once
-The more sci-fi oriented plot in general
-Future Trunks
-Putting its own spin on some sci-fi concepts

Cons
-Poor writing, due to the editor's interference
-Gohan's "hero moment" came left-field, with no real build-up (which I think the anime did better in this aspect)

BOO ARC

Pros
-Returning to its gag roots
-Mr. Satan and Boo's friendship
-Fusion
-A more "relaxed" tone in comparison to earlier arcs
-Vegeta's character development completed
-Piccolo's role as mentor to Goten & Trunks, and his antics with Gotenks

Cons
-Plotholes and inconsistencies
-Very poor writing
-Shitting on the legend of the Super Saiyan by having the two brats get it and Goku's SSj3
-An apparent lack of effort on Toriyama's part
My sentiments exactly. :mrgreen:

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Piccolo Daimao » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:37 pm

Goku100xKamehameha wrote:
SHINOBI-03 wrote:Why didn't you list pre-Z arcs?!
Cons
-Can't really think of any, apart from the minor Kaio-Ken x2 plothole
Wait, there was a plothole about Kaioken X2?!
The first time Goku uses Kaio-ken at Vegeta, he got his ass kicked and then, the second time he uses the Kaio-ken and yell "Kaio-ken x2", he got the upper hand. So there's actually a level of Kaio-ken, that's even lower than x2?
The regular Kaio-Ken was stated to double Goku's battle power, but Kaio-Ken as a whole was also stated to be a multiplier. Which means that both Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 double Goku's BP and would be at the same strength, yet Goku treats them as different. It's a mistake on Toriyama's part.
Holden Caulfield in [b][i]The Catcher in the Rye[/i][/b] wrote:I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery. People coming and putting a bunch of flowers on your stomach on Sunday, and all that crap. Who wants flowers when you're dead? Nobody.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Rawring Ninja » Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:56 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:
Goku100xKamehameha wrote: The first time Goku uses Kaio-ken at Vegeta, he got his ass kicked and then, the second time he uses the Kaio-ken and yell "Kaio-ken x2", he got the upper hand. So there's actually a level of Kaio-ken, that's even lower than x2?
The regular Kaio-Ken was stated to double Goku's battle power, but Kaio-Ken as a whole was also stated to be a multiplier. Which means that both Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 double Goku's BP and would be at the same strength, yet Goku treats them as different. It's a mistake on Toriyama's part.
I thought Kaio-Ken just boosts your power x1.5, and Kaio-Ken x2 does just that, twice your power. Kaio-Ken x2 was just the supposed limit, which is why he didn't use it initially. That's what I thought.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by penguintruth » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:05 pm

Piccolo Daimao wrote:CELL ARC

Cons
-Poor writing, due to the editor's interference
-Gohan's "hero moment" came left-field, with no real build-up (which I think the anime did better in this aspect)
lolwut

The Cell arc was easily the best written arc with its time travel complexities and plot twists and Gohan's hero moment had been built up the entirety of the manga up until then. I will agree, however, that the anime did a better job building up in that particular arc.


Here's my list:


SAIYAN ARC

Pros: Fairly well-written, good twists, Goku's battle with Vegeta
Cons: Could use a little more fleshing out at times (anime fixes this)

FREEZA ARC

Pros: Excellent main villain, characters maneuvering to get the Dragon Balls, Ginyu Force is colorful group
Cons: Goes on way too long, Freeza's different forms, some real stretches with the Dragon Ball rules (which can be seen as a pro, depending), Namekians are boring, Namek as a planet is boring


CELL ARC

Pro: Well-written, Gohan finally comes into his own, time travel element used creatively, Goku vs Cell, Vegeta vs 18, Piccolo vs 17
Cons: Cell is more of an obstacle than a villain character


BUU ARC

Pro: Returns a lot of the silly fun to the story, Vegeta develops
Cons: Everything else
Last edited by penguintruth on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Rocketman » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:13 pm

penguintruth wrote:The Cell arc was easily the best written arc with its time travel complexities and plot twists
Complexity doesn't mean good writing. The Cell arc was a clusterfuck, one admirably tied together into something resembling a decent plot, but a clusterfuck nonetheless.

Also, fuck Gohan.

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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by penguintruth » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:17 pm

Rocketman wrote:
penguintruth wrote:The Cell arc was easily the best written arc with its time travel complexities and plot twists
Complexity doesn't mean good writing. The Cell arc was a clusterfuck, one admirably tied together into something resembling a decent plot, but a clusterfuck nonetheless.

Also, fuck Gohan.
The complexities in the Cell arc were well-written, however.
Kentai wrote:Son Gokuu is a fascinating character anyway, because he is - at face value, anyway - an idiot savant. The victim of violent head trauma as an infant [...] he's a simple bumpkin with a fair share of brain damage who's natural talents to work out what's wrong compensate for his broad lack of common sense. But he's also a fighter, through and through [...] he fight until he has, in no uncertain terms, beaten his enemy on terms they can both acknowledge. He doesn't want to kill anyone, or even prove that he can win... he just wants to know he can. He's an ineffably charming bastard who's manly leanings were really incendental, and yes, the fact that he was voiced by a squeaky woman made the combination perhaps all the more charming.


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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Bussani » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:44 pm

Rawring Ninja wrote:I thought Kaio-Ken just boosts your power x1.5, and Kaio-Ken x2 does just that, twice your power. Kaio-Ken x2 was just the supposed limit, which is why he didn't use it initially. That's what I thought.
That seems logical, but the narrator (box) itself tells us that regular Kaio-ken doubled Goku's power.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Perfect » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:46 pm

I fail to see how how poor writing isn't subject (Directed at those who imply it's more factual than opinionated). I also don't understand how you can list the Buu saga as having plot holes and inconsistencies. Seriously, the Cell arc and its formers have more than Buu does by far.

Also I agree fully with Penguin.
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Rawring Ninja » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:56 pm

Bussani wrote: That seems logical, but the narrator (box) itself tells us that regular Kaio-ken doubled Goku's power.
Oh, well I'm not very familiar with the manga at all. ^^" I'm only familiar with the FUNi dub of DBZ. So I only know what I've seen from that, and the few facts and whatnot that I've picked up from lurking around here for about month. So I'll probably need a lot of readjusting. Glad to be correctly informed.
But before I take this off-topic, I'll stop typing. xD
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Re: Pros & Cons

Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:12 am

astrallite wrote:Vegetto just looks like Goku with Vegeta-ish voice. I mean it looks like every fusion involving the two looks like Goku, even though he is the air headed one.
Well, Gotenks just looks like Trunks with a new hair-do...
penguintruth wrote:some real stretches with the Dragon Ball rules (which can be seen as a pro, depending)
I'm assuming you're talking about The Great Elder's death? I'm just gonna quote Herms:
Herms wrote:Somewhat more plausible is the claim that the Great Elder’s temporarily revival was another last minute change, and that he and the rest of the Namekians were intended to stay dead forever. This is another rumor unsupported by anything Toriyama has said in interviews, so again the main argument used for it is how implausible the plot development is. The dragonballs are said to be unable to revive those who die from natural causes (like the Great Elder), after all, but he still manages to be revived for a little while by virtue of Freeza’s genocidal antics having unnaturally shorted his lifespan. This, people claim, is a ridiculous contrivance indicating that major changes were made to the story at the last minute. Now, I’ve already argued that implausible plot twists are far more likely to be due to Toriyama’s natural slapdash writing style than a sign of forced changes to the storyline, but there’s another problem with this claim. The fact is that, as far as I can tell, the rule that the dragonballs can’t revive those who die of natural causes is never mentioned until the very chapter where the Great Elder is made into an exception. In chapter 317, Kaio asks God if the dragonballs can revive people who die naturally, God says no, so Kaio asks about people whose lives are shortened unnaturally, which God says may work (the Great Elder doesn’t actually get revived until the next chapter). So if Toriyama really wanted to, he could have simply had God answer “yes” when asked if it were possible to revive those who die of natural causes, and not contradict anything ever previously said about the dragonballs. So why didn’t he? Apparently he just thought the whole thing with the Great Elder being temporarily revived due to an unnaturally shortened lifespan made a better story or something. At any rate, you can’t exactly accuse Toriyama of breaking previously established rules when he actually established a rule and then immediately broke it. Of course, it could still be that Toriyama didn’t originally plan on the Great Elder ever coming back to life, but the supposedly shady way in which he’s brought back doesn’t provide any evidence for that, since Toriyama was perfectly capable of making his revival fully by the book if he had wanted to. Personally I see the Great Elder’s death and revival as nothing more than a way of dramatically postponing the final wish to Polunga.
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