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[hleV]

Now get back to "Gohan forms when he fought Fat Buu".

[dbgtFO]

Now get back to "Gohan forms when he fought Fat Buu".

Easy. Regular Super Saiyan, when getting beat up by Buu. Super Saiyan 2, when firing his kamehameha at Buu's egg.

[jackjack]

“…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Wait, that word changes everything, does it? Is Gohan implying that he has been fighting at at level above Super Saiyan, and that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed that even further than he has?

[dbgtFO]

“…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Wait, that word changes everything, does it? Is Gohan implying that he has been fighting at at level above Super Saiyan, and that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed that even further than he has?

I thought you wanted to stay out of this
But anyways, yeah it could seem like it, the viz line is just Gohan saying, that they probably both fight at a level beyond the Super Saiy-jin limits.

Maybe Herms can give us an idea, if it's supposed to be interpreted that way.
It doesn't create holes in my fanon theory though.

[p123]

Ok this is what I'm thinking.


Initial Dabura's power is generally laughed off. He is like a joke. It is very hard for some of us to here about Perfect Cell's immense full power talked about in this manner. Also, Vegeta not knowing of Goku having SSJ2 and making the comments about Dabura, implies to me that a SSJ2 is not needed to beat Dabura who is about as strong as Cell.


Now check this out, Vegeta implies that Kibito could have managed something against Dabura. More so that Kibito was just a bumbling idiot than being totally inferior.


Now that you think of it, Kibito vs Perfect Cell would be ridicolous don't you think? I mean Kibito is somewhere around Base Gohan, even if you believe in the decreasing boost for MSSJ, that's still going to be a redonkolous space wouldn't you think? I would never expect Kibito to do anything against Perfect Cell.


Ok... So nothing concrete here, but some serious speculation. So then when Dabura is fighting SSJ Gohan, Goku offers us that Dabura is WAY,WAY STRONGER. Now, hold on. That extra way changes things. Now check this out...


Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan - way,way stronger than Goku expected Dabura to be


Dabura full power estimate

1) Neither Vegeta nor Goku seem to have any problems with this estimate. Goku says at this level he is no problem. 7 years ago he would have been trouble. Then like I said, Vegeta seems it neccessary to note that Goku has SSJ2. If SSJ2 was needed to defeat Dabura , then Vegeta would already know Goku had SSJ2.

2) Dabura's power used against Kibito

If Kibito wasn't such a bumbling idiot, he might have been able to avoid that blast... Kibito should be around Base Gohan...




Now, after looking at this even moreso, I am even more convinced that


Dabura's Initial Power ~ Imperfect Cell's power
Dabura's Full Power Estimate ~ Semi Cell's power
Dabura's True Power ~ SSJ Gohan who is probably somewhere in the general range of MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games, perhaps a bit weaker...




What do you guys think about that?

[hleV]

One question. If SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament have been shown to be much weaker than he had been against Cell, why did Goku in Babidi's ship expect to see how Gohan had progressed over those 7 years?

[p123]

That's a good question. Perhaps he didn't think Gohan was going full out. But judging by Vegeta's comment which was to Goku I believe, Vegeta thought that Gohan's was being serious enough with his power so much so to compare it to his power against Cell.


This is such an odd situation....


Vegeta to me thinks that Gohan went full out at the Budokai. Meanwhile, Goku isn't sure, and Kaioshin also makes a comment as if he wasn't sure if Gohan went full out at the Budokai as well. Then Goku directly brings up to get angry like he did against Cell and no one could beat him. Note he did not tell him to get angry like he did at the Budokai.


IMO, SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai was like retconned out or something. It's such an odd sequence which would lead one to believe


1) Enraged mutliplier for SSJ2 is different
2) Straight up retcon


Not to mention Kaioshin's implication that

SSJ Gohan Kamehameha Buu Blast > SSJ2 Gohan


and we are up in arms with all of the inconsistencies.


I don't know what to do with this crap.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

“…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If-if two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

Wait, that word changes everything, does it? Is Gohan implying that he has been fighting at at level above Super Saiyan, and that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed that even further than he has?

Yeah, the way that Gohan phrased that, in Japanese, is just like the way Goku described Super Saiyan 3. Strange...

[p123]

Meanwhile he is not aware of SSJ3 yet... Either way, Gohan is implying that Goku and Vegeta are fighting at a level higher than Dabura and Gohan are not I would think...

Aren't you the SSJ 1.5 guy?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Meanwhile he is not aware of SSJ3 yet... Either way, Gohan is implying that Goku and Vegeta are fighting at a level higher than Dabura and Gohan are not I would think...

Yep, exactly.

Aren't you the SSJ 1.5 guy?

Nope, not at all. That's a ridiculous idea.

[p123]

So what do you think of the Dabura situation?


Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan >>>>> Dabura Estimate >>> Initial Dabura ~ Kibito



I think Goku saying way,way stronger changes things. He said the same as Cell, it's hard to imagine that he meant Perfect Cell considering everything, I think there's more play on Goku saying Dabura ~ Semi Cell level of power or so...And perhaps Dabura's power that was shown against Kibito, which vegeta says Kibito probably could have managed to get away if not for him being a bumbling idiot, would probably be somewhere around Imperfect Cell - Semi Cell type of range...

[Rocketman]

It's such an odd sequence which would lead one to believe


1) Enraged mutliplier for SSJ2 is different

Gohan's rage is separate from Super Saiyan and unique to him. I say that when Gohan went to destroy Buu's ball, he didn't go SS2, but did have a Rage Boost (much as he's had rage boosts in base without going Super). The Rage pushed him higher than his SS2 strength, but goes away after firing.

[p123]

Why wouldn't Gohan go SSJ2 first, then rage boost on top of that? If not the super strong SSJ2, why not the SSJ2 he used at the Budokai.

Goku's statement about Gohan getting angry like he did against Cell IMO really gives the SSJ2 being retconned out a bit more plausible...

Also, it could be just that Kaioshin is unaware of ki amplification. But either way without a retcon

Gohan's Buu Blast >> SSj2 Gohan Budokai


Also, Kaioshin implies that all 3 saiyans are beyond belief and that Kibito couldn't imagine their power.


How silly is that? Arhhh, this is agravating..

[Rocketman]

Why wouldn't Gohan go SSJ2 first, then rage boost on top of that?

Because he's scared of SS2. In what he thought was a tightly controlled tournament setting, he can keep it under control. In a real fight, he's scared of fucking up again like when he killed his dad last time.

[p123]

Could be... There are so many theories out there now. I'm leaning towards the retcon for now, to me it makes everything fit a hell of a lot better, but I will really try to scrutunize that. I think Kaioken / Tien statements about SSJ Goku / Gohan's SSJ2 at Budokai / Mechanical Men 19/20 / all have room for possibly being retconned out...

It's an odd POV, but those issues are just so odd you know?

[hleV]

Basically Gohan sucks at being SSJ2.

[Savage68]

Because he's scared of SS2. In what he thought was a tightly controlled tournament setting, he can keep it under control. In a real fight, he's scared of fucking up again like when he killed his dad last time.

I must say, that makes little sense. Opting out of using SSJ2 when the universe's fate hangs in the balance (and Goku was completely out of the picture) would be more detrimental than anything.

[Rocketman]

I must say, that makes little sense. Opting out of using SSJ2 when the universe's fate hangs in the balance (and Goku was completely out of the picture) would be more detrimental than anything.

This is the guy who cried to Cell about not wanting to fight.

[p123]

I think the retcon has some play....

Replace SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai for SSJ Gohan...


1) Kaioshin implies that Gohan perhaps didn't use full power at the Budokai. He says something that the burst Goku could use made him aware that mere mortals surpassed him, as if he didn't know he was surpassed before, which is Gohan was a SSJ2 at the Budokai wouldn't make a lot of sense...Meanwhile Kaioshin was in pure awe of Gohan's SSJ2 power at the Budokai. I think it makes sense for Gohan to be a SSJ at the Budokai and then for him to think he had that extra burst on top of that like Goku used to lead him to his thoughts.


2) Gohan says that Dad/Vegeta are fighting at a level above SSJ, as if he and Dabura are not .

3) Goku tells Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell. If Goku was just talking SSJ2, wouldn't he say just get angry like you did at the Budokai?
The whole enraged multiplier is very complicated, but could be true..

4) Gohan's Buu Blast makes Kaioshin tell Kibito he hadn't seen how strong they were. But Gohan was a SSJ2 at the Budokai? How much more powerful could that blast be if Gohan was a SSJ? If SSJ Gohan used a rage multiplier, why not just go SSJ2 then? If Gohan was just a SSJ at the Budokai, Kaioshin would just be unaware of ki amplification, and seeing how Goku used that burst, and the others seemed ok with that, he could think that they were all on that burst level.



Meh... My best effort using the retcon POV, it's choppy I know, but it's a first draft. Any play on this? Perhaps we have been trying to make Gohan a SSJ2 against Dabura the whole time, maybe we should have been trying to make Gohan a SSJ at the Budokai?

What do you think Savage?

[Rocketman]

Perhaps we have been trying to make Gohan a SSJ2 against Dabura the whole time, maybe we should have been trying to make Gohan a SSJ at the Budokai?

Against Dabura and Buu it's spotty enough that people who don't believe in lightning can pretend Gohan was SS2.

There is literally nothing to make Gohan only SS1 versus Kibito. Nothing.