Disproving the 120 number

[Savage68]

It looked to me like that Saibaimen was only feigning defeat, to make his self-destruction all the more effective. Yamcha's most powerful attack didn't even render the Saibaimen unconscious, so if he was significantly stronger, Toriyama didn't do a very good job of conveying that.

[p123]

"About" 1500. Remember, this is still the early, low-level point of the series where battle powers fluctuate back and forth. There's no discrepancy considering Kuririn would simply have to try harder against Nappa than against random Freeza-douches #537 and #8325.

Going to have to disagree. See no reason for them to not be at full power. Instead I use that battle power as a cap for what went down against Nappa. I think that's the better approach but to each his own.

Nobody says Gohan had surpassed Piccolo yet, only that he had the potential to. Piccolo can still be stronger than him at this point, especially considering how fast he's been seen to grow in power at other points.

Kuririn goes gaga for the 2800 blast. Implying it would be stronger than anything preceding it. Piccolo is dead at this point anyhow, Piccolos' death is what triggers Gohan's rage. Gohan has already surpassed Piccolo with his rage twice before against Raditz, 710/1,307, this would be nothing new.

Don't forget that Yamcha actually won his fight with the Saibaiman. Its subsequent self-destruct was a desperation move.

Yamcha fought evenly with the Saibamen then disappears and lands a Kamehameha , which hurts the Saibamen but does not destroy him. Then he is blown up to pieces alongside with the Saibamen. At the end of the day that is a draw if I ever saw one lol, but I know what you mean. If Yamcha was so much stronger I would expect an end result like Kuririn's ki blast in which the Saibamen are totally discarded.





Also on the 120 number. I doubt it, Goku should be well above 3 million I would think..



Freeza ( against Goku/ Vegeta )
Goku
Vegeta ~ ( Initial True Form Freeza, he upped his speed against Vegeta )
3rd Form Freeza
Gohan's Rage 2
Piccolo W/o Weights
Freeza 2nd Form Full Power
Piccolo W/Weights
Freeza 2nd Form Powered Up
Gohan's Rage 1
Initial 2nd Form Freeza = Over a million



As you can see , there is a shit ton of characters over a million here. The powers could easily range up to 10 million if one wanted to, and could plausibly do so. Although making SSJ Goku Freeza in the 300 + million range would surely make for some sad campers. I'll see what I can put together.

[Senzu_Bean]

I think the Z senshi numbers against Nappa are silly too.

Silly would their numbers be anything other than that.

1) Kuririn 1770 against Nappa yet against the Freeza henchmen he's only about 1500. Note Kuririn tells Gohan to power up, never tells him power up 90% of your power.

About 1,500 isn't 1,500. Krillin is weighted and Gohan probably is around that, as is Krillin.

2) Piccolo at 3500 seems pretty freaking odd considering all the fuss being made about Gohan's 2800 Masenko. Not to mention Kuririn is in absolute awe of this power, meanwhile, never makes any comment about Piccolo's power in that manner. 2800 > Piccolo should be the case IMO.

There is zero evidence that 2,800 is above Piccolo. What should be above Piccolo is what Gohan demonstrated latter, fighting evenly with Vegeta.

3) Yamcha at 1480 is just too high. Sure, he should probably be a bit superior to the Saibamen, but this is starting to be a big gap over here. I would be ok with Yamcha in the 1200-1250 range or so 1300 tops, anything over than that is too much IMO.

Key words: in my opinion. Yamcha easily beat the Saibamen which it is at 1,200. Thus he is stronger. Period!

[p123]

Why do people keep repeating me. I said Kuririn is about 1500 on Namek clearly. Which obviously means he's less than 1500. All I'm saying is that Kuririn's power against Nappa should be about 1500, just like on Namek.

[Senzu_Bean]

You aren't making any sense. About 1,500 can be lower or higher than 1,500. And Krillin isn't weighted against Nappa.

[Fox666]

1) Kuririn 1770 against Nappa yet against the Freeza henchmen he's only about 1500. Note Kuririn tells Gohan to power up, never tells him power up 90% of your power.

Zarbon says that Gohan and Kuririn have "around 1,500". I don't nowhere how the Daizenshuu/Jump guide contradicts that.

2) Piccolo at 3500 seems pretty freaking odd considering all the fuss being made about Gohan's 2800 Masenko. Not to mention Kuririn is in absolute awe of this power, meanwhile, never makes any comment about Piccolo's power in that manner. 2800 > Piccolo should be the case IMO.

There is no implication that Gohan suprassed Piccolo, especially because Piccolo was already dead. The fuss was because Gohan power gone 2,800 - while he normally should have at maximum a thousand and a few.

And I believe these pages are the best comparison beetween Gohan and Piccolo

Of course these pages are open for interpretation, and don't serve as proof

3) Yamcha at 1480 is just too high. Sure, he should probably be a bit superior to the Saibamen, but this is starting to be a big gap over here. I would be ok with Yamcha in the 1200-1250 range or so 1300 tops, anything over than that is too much IMO..

That's subjective and doesn't serve as evidence.

[p123]

Over 8,000 ( over the number )
Barely 18,000 ( perhaps only slightly over the number )
24,000 ( exactly the number )
About 1,500 ( logically a little less than the number seeing above )


Since when is Kuririn wearing weights on Namek?

And yes, Gohan has surpassed Piccolo before, seeing how Piccolo sacrificed his life for him after training him for the year, Gohan rages out with a power of 2800, which was amplfied as well most likely.


Gohan's 2800 Masenko should be the strongest attack to date from the Z Senshi up until that point. Look at Nappa's face, why is he so worried about that power, if he was just fighting a 3500 Piccolo, and knocked him out with one blow?


Nappa >= Gohan's 2800 Masenko >> Piccolo IMO.

[Tyro]

When Kuririn and Gohan release their ki on Namek, Kuririn is still wearing his weighted shirt. So 1,770 could still be his full power.

[p123]

When is Kuririn ever noted to be wearing weighted clothing in Z at all? I never see Kuririn pop off the weights and then get stated to be stronger.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Before they go off to watch Freeza and his men take over the village, Krillin is shown removing his shirt. I think he removed his boots, too. Not sure.

Edit: Nope. Just sneakers.

[Fox666]

It looked to me like that Saibaimen was only feigning defeat, to make his self-destruction all the more effective. Yamcha's most powerful attack didn't even render the Saibaimen unconscious, so if he was significantly stronger, Toriyama didn't do a very good job of conveying that.

How much is "significantly"? There is no such rule, nor Toriyama would (or should) care that much about it.

Kuririn goes gaga for the 2800 blast. Implying it would be stronger than anything preceding it.

No, that's subjective.

Kuririn goes gaga a lot of times during Namek's saga, despite sensing Freeza's Ki right at the beggining.

Also on the 120 number. I doubt it, Goku should be well above 3 million I would think..

Freeza ( against Goku/ Vegeta )
Goku
Vegeta ~ ( Initial True Form Freeza, he upped his speed against Vegeta )
3rd Form Freeza
Gohan's Rage 2
Piccolo W/o Weights
Freeza 2nd Form Full Power
Piccolo W/Weights
Freeza 2nd Form Powered Up
Gohan's Rage 1
Initial 2nd Form Freeza = Over a million

As you can see , there is a shit ton of characters over a million here. The powers could easily range up to 10 million if one wanted to, and could plausibly do so. Although making SSJ Goku Freeza in the 300 + million range would surely make for some sad campers. I'll see what I can put together.

Nice said, if someone wanted to, he could possible put Goku on the 10 million mark. However, if that one really wanted, could put him at less than 2 million. There is no numerical statement about what's the difference beetween each of these powers. You can't disprove them like that.

Especially considering most of them are insignificant (i.e. cloth weights). Also it was never stated if Freeza's "over 1 million" is his initial power of not.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

When is Kuririn ever noted to be wearing weighted clothing in Z at all? I never see Kuririn pop off the weights and then get stated to be stronger.

Everyone who trained with Kami wore weighted clothing. At the end of the training, Yajirobe says, "Can I take this weighted shirt off now?"

As for "about 1500," to a guy as strong as Zarbon, don't you think that any number from 1500-2000 could be "about" 1500, to him? They're both ants compared to him, anyway.

[Fox666]

When is Kuririn ever noted to be wearing weighted clothing in Z at all? I never see Kuririn pop off the weights and then get stated to be stronger.

Everyone who trained with Kami wore weighted clothing. At the end of the training, Yajirobe says, "Can I take this weighted shirt off now?"

You are right about that. But I don't really think Toriyama remembered that when Zarbon states "around 1,500".

As for "about 1500," to a guy as strong as Zarbon, don't you think that any number from 1500-2000 could be "about" 1500, to him? They're both ants compared to him, anyway.

Especially when you are informing it to Freeza

[p123]

Especially considering most of them are insignificant (i.e. cloth weights). Also it was never stated if Freeza's "over 1 million" is his initial power of not.

Freeza transforms! My power is over a million! Oh wait, it's not right now, but hold on, in two more powerups it will be! Right...

No, that's subjective.

Kuririn goes gaga a lot of times during Namek's saga, despite one of the first things that happened in the arc was he sensing Freeza's Ki.

Kuririn- ZOMG Gohan's Masenko so ZOMG Powerful. Oh wait, it's not even stronger than Piccolo, who was just killed, and never made Nappa nervous at all. Oh wait, Nappa is nervous about the 2800 blast, but that doesn't make sense, since he took out a 3500 guy with one shot. Hmm...

Nice said, if someone wanted to, he could possible put Goku on the 10 million mark. However, if that one really wanted, could put him at less than 2 million

I'd like to see you try...

Before they go off to watch Freeza and his men take over the village, Krillin is shown removing his shirt. I think he removed his boots, too. Not sure.

Edit: Nope. Just sneakers.

Kuririn is not wearing weighted clothes dude. The only ones who do in all of Z are Piccolo especially, and Goku in the Raditz Saga. That's it...

As for "about 1500," to a guy as strong as Zarbon, don't you think that any number from 1500-2000 could be "about" 1500, to him? They're both ants compared to him, anyway.

Hell no... 1500 whether it's over,about,barely, etc should be right around that number. Considering how if he was 1600 he should say that and if he was 1400 he would say that.. About 1500 should fall in a small range perhaps 1450-1550 range ..

About likely is less than 1500 anyway, as you can see by the way things are generally worded..

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Nope. All of the humans wore weights during Kami's training. It's not just a Piccolo/Goku thing.

[p123]

When has Kuririn been suggested to have taken his clothes off, or powered up from doing so? Never. If Kuririn wore the weights throughout training and took them off after training, that's fine, it means nothing to this discussion.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It means a lot, considering you were wrong in saying Goku and Piccolo were the only ones who did it.

Krillin made it a point to remove his shirt before going off to what might possibly result in a battle. It's nothing more than that. He wore weights.

[p123]

Battle wise Goku/Piccolo are the only ones noted to gain power after dropping their shirt. I don't know how I'm wrong.

Kuririn has never removed clothing and then stated to be stronger because of that. It just never happened. If you want to bring up a link when this happened during a battle I will agree with you. It just didn't happen though.

[Kaboom]

Kuririn- ZOMG Gohan's Masenko so ZOMG Powerful. Oh wait, it's not even stronger than Piccolo, who was just killed, and never made Nappa nervous at all. Oh wait, Nappa is nervous about the 2800 blast, but that doesn't make sense, since he took out a 3500 guy with one shot. Hmm...

"Hey look, that full-grown adult male is lifting 150 lbs in weights, that's not bad... HOLY CRAP, look, that five-year-old is lifting 85 lbs! How is he doing that?! It's amazing!"

[p123]

Oh wait that's 2800 Nappa watch out! I mean if it was 2800 coming from a full adult it would be no problem, but since it's coming from a boy, for no apparent reason it is highly more dangerous!