How strong did the humans get?

[Rocketman]

Dude Tenshinhan can one shot 100% Freeza with ease.

...so could the Krillin who fought Nappa. One HAXXOR technique should not be the determination on strength.

[MR.Mark]

he can blow the Earth with that

Jerry Seinfeld: Whoa whoa, let's keep this sophisticated!

[Fox666]

...so could the Krillin who fought Nappa. One HAXXOR technique should not be the determination on strength.

That's a valid argument

And I don't think the Shin Kikoho would kill Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

And I don't think the Shin Kikoho would kill Freeza.

It would, unless Freeza is that durable.

[Titan]

What about Yajirobe? How much you think he has during the Majin Buu saga?

Yajirobe trained after the Saiyan arc?

Even if he did, I highly doubt he would've even been close to approaching the level of Tenshinhan, Kuririn, Yamucha or Chaozu without training at Kaio's.

(Does Kuririn trains that much?)

Logically Yajirobe should have increased his power

Piccolo Daimao saga: 170
Saiyan saga: 970
Namek saga: 5,000
Androids saga: 1,000,000
Majin Buu saga: 100,000,000

I think logically Yajirobe should have increased his power

Piccolo Daimao saga: 170
Saiyan saga: 170,5
Namek saga: 171
Androids saga: 172
Majin Buu saga: 173

Wait,i think i'm overestimating his progress.

This just seems to ignore everything in the story for no reason, if you ask me. Goku's allies were always a step behind him because they were always literally doing the training he'd already done. Goku trains with Kame-sennin, then Yamcha trains with Kame-sennin. In the meantime Goku trains with Karin. Everyone else then trains with Karin, while Goku trains with God. Everyone trains with God, Goku trains with God's boss. Everyone trains with God's boss, Goku does even greater training. That's the point where they stop following in Goku's footsteps; I see no reason to assume they'd finally close the gap when Goku continues to do incredible training and they don't.

You are the one ignoring what you don't like in the story to establish your own interpretation of the events as the only one valid.
You failed to mention that they always surpassed the previous villains and Goku's base level in the previous sagas.
And they still are following Goku's footsteps which is everything they've learned with kami or kaio-sama the best teacher in the universe.Goku is not using the gravity chamber too like the other humans,obviously because he has better ways to train.

You seem to operate under the logic that the characters are stupid which means they are going to do the same training over and over again farting in the Earth all the time,basically training for fun, when Kame senin instructed all of them in early dragon ball that doing the same training over and over again was pointless.

Now,looking at Tenshinhan comments you can clearly see that he isn't stupid, therefore he states that he´ll mix King Kai's teachings with his own mastering Kaio-sama style and his way of training,because he couldn't expect to surpass Goku doing the same training.

Tenshinhan also says something about testing himself against the androids, AFTER he felt Freeza's supressed power while he was on Earth .So he really must be stupid to show up confident in his training and progresses and let Chaozu behind,after all they came up to fight not to watch,but the problem is that we know the character is not stupid.

It is funny that the same character later refuses to participate in training regimes that can't make him more or less competitive when he refuses to train in the RoSaT.
You see Ten and Krillin complaining about ssj power which is in the hundreds of millions.
That's the only level established in the manga that they couldn't eventually attain everything else is speculation and presumptions.
So,after training with Kaio, they already know the best way to train which means weighted clothing and magical weights that later we see goku using in the other world.
They all started training on their own training regime,because they already learnt the best ways to train from their different masters.

On the other hand,Vegeta is the only one doing the same kind of training over and over again,that's the reason why Goku is always a step away.Goku simply has the most effective way of training in the universe,kaio's way of training.
Why did experts in martial arts, train in the earth if it is useless?Because, they can vastly improve in the Earth using kaio-sama way of training.

so could the Krillin who fought Nappa. One HAXXOR technique should not be the determination on strength.

Kienzan is like a knife,it can even kill a ssj2,on the contrary SK is just a regular ki technique.That power comes from Tenshinhan's ki, there's no evidence at all to think otherwise except your BP presumptions about the characters.

There isn't any special explanation about it,so there is no reason to assume that SK can multiply his bp thousands of times,specially because you use constantly the argument that they are weak humans and a weak human body certaintly
isn't strong enough to hold on even by a second a multiplier above ssj3.

His body would just blow up after the first strike.Shin kikoho, it's not a new move, only a improved version in which Ten is able to release more than one blast before he falls.
Plus,Shin K has a limit,Tenshinhan states this when he comes to fight Majin Buu.

Then, using random numbers, if Tenshinhan had let's say 10 millions and Shin Kikoho is able to to multiply his bp 100 times he would be able to hold Cell with a bp of 1 billion.Nothing says that Semiperfect Cell doesn't have 1 billion or even less.
You don't have any kind of reference to say that this doesn't work actually it makes more sense than to make a baseless claim that SK can improve Ten's bp thousands of times something unseen in the story.

[Senzu_Bean]

I already said but I'm going to say it again. The Kikoho doesn't multiply the user's power by anything. The reason why most ki attacks are stronger than the users' norm is because the Earthlings know how to manipulate their battle power. That is all. Before Tenshinhan training under Kami he couldn't fire a Kikoho stronger than himself cause the Kikoho by itself doesn't increase the user's power, just like the Kamehameha doesn't increase it unless the user know how to manipulate his battle power.

So you basically have two options: or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million.

[lash]

I already said but I'm going to say it again. The Kikoho doesn't multiply the user's power by anything. The reason why most ki attacks are stronger than the users' norm is because the Earthlings know how to manipulate their battle power. That is all. Before Tenshinhan training under Kami he couldn't fire a Kikoho stronger than himself cause the Kikoho by itself doesn't increase the user's power, just like the Kamehameha doesn't increase it unless the user know how to manipulate his battle power.

So you basically have two options: or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million.

Not sure what you're getting at(sounds like some ancient theory Darkprince liked to use before).

If Ten is above one or hundred million or not, his Kikiho is still going to be far above his normal capabilities.

[Senzu_Bean]

Not sure what you're getting at(sounds like some ancient theory Darkprince liked to use before).

I don't know.

If Ten is above one or hundred million or not, his Kikiho is still going to be far above his normal capabilities.

One cannot go too far above his own capabilities, otherwise there wouldn't be a limit to how much power one can produce. The highest I can think is Goku going 20 times above his capabilities and he almost destroyed his body in the process when he had a battle power of 3 million.

So I retain what I said above - or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million.

[Kaboom]

Remember, the Neo Kikoho didn't actually HURT Cell at all. It just pushed him back. Having a great amount of concussive force could be a special property of the attack, like how the Kienzan slices or the Makankosappo drills. If such is the case, even if the Ki behind Tenshinhan's attack is far weaker than Cell, it could still have that effect on him -- pushing him back and stalling him.

It's like some very rude version of telekinesis!

[Senzu_Bean]

The Kikoho is a kiai. Unless all kiais have such property then I don't see that happening.

I'm still for the or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million theory than find excuses not supported anywhere in Dragonball universe.

[Savage68]

Remember, the Neo Kikoho didn't actually HURT Cell at all. It just pushed him back.

How can you look at these and deduce from them that Cell isn't experiencing any pain at all?

If no pain, why the anguished cries? Why the burn marks?

[Fox666]

Kuririn and Gohan also leave burn marks on Freeza's final form. However that's superficial damage. The same attack wouldn't kill Freeza's first form, which is around 1/50 of the power he had when Kuririn and Gohan shot him.

[Senzu_Bean]

The fact Cell is being hurt by Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho isn't cause he has burn marks after but cause he is showing expressions of being hurt. Compare such scenario to when Krillin blasts Vegeta and Nappa. Both have burn marks but then compare their faces.

[Savage68]

Kuririn and Gohan also leave burn marks on Freeza's final form. However that's superficial damage. The same attack wouldn't kill Freeza's first form, which is around 1/50 of the power he had when Kuririn and Gohan shot him.

That means Freeza felt no pain at all, or that the pain he felt may have been minimal?

[Kaboom]

I'm still for the or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million theory than find excuses not supported anywhere in Dragonball universe.

Such "rules" of power comparisons are every bit as officially unsupported.

Regardless, the fact still remains that the attack didn't hurt Cell at all, so there's no indication that the technique's power actually measured up to him in any way. A quick glance at Kanzentai's translations shows that Daizenshuu #7 even says Tenshinhan used the attack to just "stop Cell from moving." No different really than how Goku used a Kienzan-type technique to "interrupt" Gotenks-Boo. Its actual power is irrelevant.

The fact Cell is being hurt by Tenshinhan's Shin Kikoho isn't cause he has burn marks after but cause he is showing expressions of being hurt.

I could just as easily label them as expressions of being angered or surprised.

Remember, the Neo Kikoho didn't actually HURT Cell at all. It just pushed him back.

How can you look at these and deduce from them that Cell isn't experiencing any pain at all?

Like this:

If no pain, why the drool?

His mouth is open.

Why the anguished cries?

What cries? I only see sound effects.

Why the burn marks?

Those could just as easily be dirt stains. But as I've pointed out before and Fox666 has just so graciously emphasized for me, that doesn't mean anything anyway. Nappa and Vegeta also had them after tanking Kuririn's big Saibaimen-killer attack, and they were decidedly unharmed.

Also, you missed a particular panel.



This one where, despite being hit at that moment with a Kikoho, Cell is able with relative calm to look over and notice #16 and #18 escaping. Not something he'd really be able to do if he were writhing in agony. It certainly wasn't hurting him much there.

So again I merely wish to point out that Cell was not hurt by the Neo Kikoho. He was little more than stalled and annoyed, by an attack that is already much stronger than its user.

Hence, no matter how strong anyone chooses to believe Tenshinhan is, which is totally up to them... he does not "have" to, by any sort of "minimum requirement," be super-duper-let's-go-a-round-with-Freeza powerful. THAT fact is my sole point in all this, and it's what I'll step out of the thread with.

[Senzu_Bean]

That is all great and dandy (not really) but the fact remains whatever Tenshinhan was able to accomplish with that Shin Kikoho, which isn't that different than what Freeza at 70% did to Super Saiyan Goku, you still have the same two options as before - or Cell is considerable weak or Tenshinhan has to be far above one million.

But still no one is trying to make Tenshinhan at around Freeza. His Shin Kikoho on the contrary is another story.

[Savage68]

Those could just as easily be dirt stains.

They're singe marks. You can actually see the smoke rising up off of his skin, though I admit it isn't conclusive.

This one where, despite being hit at that moment with a Kikoho, Cell is able with relative calm to look over and notice #16 and #18 escaping. Not something he'd really be able to do if he were writhing in agony. It certainly wasn't hurting him much there.

He doesn't look "calm," in any sense of the word. Tenshinhan's next Kikoho sent him flying towards the dirt, so the panel you posted of Cell glancing over at #18 was evidently not at the height of a Kikoho assault. I haven't been keeping track of whichever posters are arguing for Tenshinhan being able to take on Freeza, but what I think is that, since just about every visual cue that could've been given was given, Cell was being hurt and overpowered, thus the Shin Kikoho (not the user, in any scenario) would overpower Freeza. Semi-Cell was capable of tanking a direct punch to the face by #16, so for a technique like the SK to override that kind of strength -- it's certainly gonna be able to override the strength of anyone weaker than Cell, let alone fodder like Freeza.

[dbgtFO]

IMO I'm just going to go with the "Tenshinhan forgot Goku & Trunks' powers as a Super Saiyan" theory to explain him showing up, while Chaozu didn't.
This quote points to it.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

So Tenshinhan showing up would mean that he has surpassed Suppressed Mecha Freeza and King Cold, since Trunks easily defeated those two and he couldn't beat the androids meaning Tenshinhan would have to at least be somewhat stronger, than them to feel usefull.
This means I end up having Tenshinhan about 6 million in terms of Fighting Power.
And since I disregard Yamcha's statement about Krillin being the strongest eartling at the 25th TB, both of them are weaker, than Ten.

[Senzu_Bean]

He doesn't need to be stronger than Freeza to be useful. Useful is different than capable of beat the crap of everybody. And Tenshinhan never saw Super Saiyan Goku in action, which should feel considerable stronger. But still at the end Tenshinhan was indeed useful only after displaying power far above Freeza.

I personally, and that is in response to the above, Tenshinhan had always been in another league than Krillin or Yamcha. Comparing Tenshinhan to Krillin is like comparing Piccolo to Tenshinhan. They are simple different kind of beings.

[Rocketman]

I still don't understand why people claim Tien has to be super-strong or he wouldn't have shown up against the Androids. He's equally useless against the Androids if he's 50,000 or 5,000,000.

Likewise, you already have to accept that the Mega Kikoho multiplies Tien's power obscenely if you believe it's hurting Cell.

At the end Tenshinhan was indeed useful, if wasn't the darn faggot named Vegeta.

And Krillin's dick.