How strong did the humans get?

[Rocketman]

Vegeta didn't train. 18,000 was his natural power growth just from maturing and whatever small workout he got from stomping all over the universe.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Well only because Piccolo is only 8. That's the whole thing...Yes Saiyans stay in there prime a hell of a lot longer. But no one goes through massive increases after 25 years of training. After that long of hard training, your likely reaching most of your potential.

Yes, but Saiyans are a warrior race. Their genes are literally designed to help them obtain obscene amounts of power with their natural desire for a fight and then getting a power boost afterward, assuming they stay alive on the battlefield anyway. Their prime is practically 3 times longer than a normal humans, meaning they have a much longer period to increase their maximum potential. A "normal" human like Kuririn is close to reaching his maximum potential around 25 because that's close to his prime, one would expect him to be weaker 10 years later once his body starts to fall apart. Goku on the other hand is still physically around 20, and would still have another 15 years of being in his prime ahead of him, meaning he has an extremely long window for growth.

Not to mention the fact that Toriyama never really has Goku gain absurd amounts of power by normal training methods. The insane boosts on Namek are him abusing his Saiyan genes, and all the other massive boosts are obtained when he is in an alternate dimension (Afterlife, RoSaT, etc.).

[p123]

Good for them. They are still weak as shit. Their prince, who is far superior to the rest of their race, is fodder towards the big boys in the Freeza Empire. Their prince is a worker, an employee, the Saiyan race is completely different than the SSJ clan we all have gotten used to.

geta didn't train. 18,000 was his natural power growth just from maturing and whatever small workout he got from stomping all over the universe

I'm sure Saiyans train. They are a warrior race. Generally warriors train. Vegeta lived a normal Saiyan lifestyle, which consisted of battle/training and some more battle/training. The only reason Vegeta gained ridicolous power was because he fell under the Goku and CO. HAX made for the storyline. Vegeta is already 30 years old, he has been training his whole life, he can't possibly have much more power realistically.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Good for them. They are still weak as shit. Their prince, who is far superior to the rest of their race, is fodder towards the big boys in the Freeza Empire. Their prince is a worker, an employee, the Saiyan race is completely different than the SSJ clan we all have gotten used to.

The Saiyan's are a warrior race, and Vegeta constantly hints that most of his race died on the battlefield instead of growing old. Strength like theirs is rare in the universe, even before Goku came along glowing everything up, since Namekians with combat powers over 3.000 were considered to be beings with uncommon amounts of power. The higher ups in Freeza's organization amount to around ten people (Freeza, Cold, the Ginyu Force, Dodoria, Zarbon and maybe Kui) ranging from 18,000 to 120 million if you go by the Daizenshuu. Vegeta was the strongest Saiyan to date, unless the previous Super Saiyan surpassed him, at 18,000 while Raditz was said to be a low class warrior with a power barely over 1,000. If you want to count the Bardock special, Bardock and the king were both around 10,000 placing most of the race somewhere between 1,000 and 10,000, still extremely uncommon for a being of the living realm.

After the Freeza arc, none of the villains are shown with a natural power. The Jinzoningen and Buu were artificially created, and Bibidi's minions all had their power boosted by magic. You can't count them in the grand scheme of things.

[p123]

There are very few warrior Nameks, the one warrior Namek they do have though, blows the Saiyans out of the water. Also Guru implies that if Piccolo/Kami never split, the Nameless Namek would also been superior to all regular Saiyans.

No way is King Vegeta nor Bardock anywhere around 10k. Bardock in all likelihood is probably weaker than Raditz, solely judging by his offspring. Prince Vegeta surpassed King Vegeta as a kid, if King Vegeta was over 10k and Prince Vegeta as a kid was over 10k, your telling me Vegeta only progressed to 18k over 15-20 years? That's malarky!

[Savage68]

Bardock in all likelihood is probably weaker than Raditz, solely judging by his offspring.

Bardock's Battle Power was said to have been approaching 10,000.

[p123]

Oh of course in TOEI Land. In the manga, based on it's implications I don't see how it is possible.


Bardock with two kids , one in the 1200 range, and the other 416, in all likelihood was a medicore low class saiyan. If you produce low class saiyans you generally would be one. Also seeing how every son has surpassed their father from all the saiyans we know of, hell Bardock could plausible be in the low hundreds.

Also, the super plot device enhanced super zenkais were not introduced until later in the story. I don't see how Bardock would get roped into unneccesary powerups for no apparent reason.


TOEI is making a movie, they have to dramatize stuff, it's their job. In all likelihood, I view my evaluation on Bardock to be more accurate than that which was displayed in the special.

[Savage68]

That's fine, but a fan's opinion never overrides an officially made and canon statement, unless the statement is absolutely contradicted.

[p123]

Bardock's power level of ~ 10,000 is not a canon statement thought. All we see is Bardock in the final scenes of the movie, which make that part of the movie canon, but nothing else...Surely if AT wanted the movie to be canon, he would have included some major portions of the special to his work. Just because AT can get hints, or like a character or want to use some of another's work, doesn't mean the whole entire thing gets roped in..

[Savage68]

That's exactly what it means, actually. He liked the movie, so he decided to give it bonafide credence in his series' continuity. Even a single panel of BARDOCK CONFRONTING FREEZA as THE FINAL RESISTANCE OF THE SAIYAN RACE would say all that needs to be said. Bardock's psychic awareness was still intact (which was never directly written into the manga), and he was exceptionally powerful (which was never directly written into the manga). Are you also of the mind that Toriyama's most recent interviews are non-canon to his manga series? What about the guidebooks' information?

[p123]

I disagree obviously. I am a manga purist, that's really all that I would look at. I feel that if it was really that important, it would have been included in the original work, the true source. I don't care if AT included half of the special in the manga, the other half would still be non canon in my book. Surely you have heard of a hard line stance like this before, don't act all suprised...

[Savage68]

... I'm not. I've heard all kinds of "hard line" stances before, but that doesn't mean any of them made any sense.

[p123]

Maybe not to you....

Oh have you heard my new line of thought regarding Dabura?

Vegeta seems to think he can manage something against Dabura initially. Vegeta also seems to think Kibito could have avoided that blast. Goku also says that he doesn't feel that Dabura used full power against Kibito. Vegeta later goes on to say that he's stronger than Gohan, and even goes so far to call Gohan pathetic. Also mentions he will finish Dabura for him.


My interpretation is that since Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, so much that Gohan's pathetic, and Vegeta thinks he can just go and finish Dabura like that, Vegeta is probably talking about his SSJ form. Seeing as how Vegeta is stronger, why would he even need to go SSJ2 against them? That would be overkill IMO...


So if SSJ Vegeta >> Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan, then what to make of Vegeta's earlier comments?

Not to mention

Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan >>>> Goku's first estimate on Dabura >> Initial Dabura ~ Kibito


So if Dabura as a MSSJ level opponent is way stronger than Goku's first estimation, and Vegeta says we could manage something, IMO Vegeta is more or less talking about his Base power in regards to Dabura's Initial Estimation.

[Attitudefan]

But in the manga, Bardock was never stated to be powerful. Sure he was included in the panel but that doesn't make him strong for all we know he could have been weak or strong but more than likely he would have been weak. His offspring are weak and so was he.

Bottom line is he was a one man army, TOEI said he was roughly 10 000 and what his offspring indicate is he was roughly 1000. I will believe he would be closer to 1000 instead of 10000 just because it would make sense. Vegeta never even stated that Bardock was strong either, he basically said his genetics were weak... If Bardock was strong around the king's strength then he would be an honourable mention; he doesn't win that award for power but for his bravery as the last stand for his race.

[p123]

Agreed, see I'm not the only one.

Judging off a purely manga look Bardcok being is the 100-1,000 level range is more logical.


Also King Vegeta being over 10k is apparently illogical as well. You would think there would be some natural progression of power for Vegeta over the years...


Vegeta surpassing 10k as a kid, and then only being 18k 20 years later is illogical IMO.


Prince Vegeta is like a phenom of his race, I can see King Vegeta being even perhaps weaker than Nappa was against Goku...

[Kaboom]

Wait, why the hell is Bardock pushing 10,000 "illogical?" We saw why he'd done it; he was a soldier, constantly on the front lines, who kept taking the challenging planets and almost getting himself killed on each mission, and so then getting boosts from being healed.

Don't think there has to be some sort of trend just because of Goku and Raditz. Goku grew up in a cozy atmosphere on Earth compared to how other Saiyans lived, and was rarely ever challenged. He didn't even have the natural strength that came from living in 10x gravity, something even Saiyan children can do.

And Raditz was just piss-weak regardless. But we still don't know about his circumstances either.

[lash]

In Toriyama's mind he accepted Bardock the character, therefore he accepted his back story.
He's close to 10,000.

[Bussani]

Even if the rest of the special isn't taken as canon, I don't see how one fan's belief that he's weak is any more valid than another fan's that he's near 10,000 like the special says. If it's picking between some fan's opinion and the special Bardock himself came from, I'd going with the special, anyway.

[Nazi Cola]

Vegeta said he surpassed his father as a child. Assuming King Vegeta was around 12k when the planet blew, that leaves Vegeta like, what, 8 years to surpass him? He doesn't have to be stronger than his father at the time of Freeza attacking. He's still got a lot of time left as a kid before his statement is rendered invalid, so it's not as if he had to have gone from 12k to 18k over the span of some 20 years.

[In Brightest Day]

Saichourou said it was only going to release power that he already had.

And Vegeta said that their powers had been steadily rising over the past couple of fights.