How strong did the humans get?

[Rocketman]

Vegeta surpassing 10k as a kid, and then only being 18k 20 years later is illogical IMO.

Why? He's not doing concentrated training, he's too strong for his missions to give him zenkais all the time like Bardock, and if he goes Oozaru, he's the second-strongest being in the universe.

He has no reason to get stronger, so he doesn't.

[Bussani]

Saichourou said it was only going to release power that he already had.

And Vegeta said that their powers had been steadily rising over the past couple of fights.

And...that proves that Saichourou's thing somehow keeps drawing new power out of nowhere forever?

[In Brightest Day]

Saichourou said it was only going to release power that he already had.

And Vegeta said that their powers had been steadily rising over the past couple of fights.

And...that proves that Saichourou's thing somehow keeps drawing new power out of nowhere forever?

'Out of nowhere'?

And yeah, saying it would've just coincidentally stopped as soon as he got back to Earth is hugely suspect, and a massive cop-out to say the least. If their is proof to say it likely wouldn't have slowed down, why is it hard to believe, exactly?

[Rocketman]

And yeah, saying it would've just coincidentally stopped as soon as he got back to Earth is hugely suspect, and a massive cop-out to say the least. If their is proof to say it likely wouldn't have slowed down, why is it hard to believe, exactly?

Gohan's power didn't keep rising after he returned to Earth.

[In Brightest Day]

...

What suggests he didn't?


Edit: Actually, Vegeta's statement essentially said their power had only increased over the past few fights, so that would likely explain why neither made any improvements in between the time they returned to Earth and when Frieza and King Cold showed up, although they didn't battle then, too. With that said, what proof is there to say they didn't improve?

[Rocketman]

... :?

What suggests he didn't?

Nobody ever commenting on Gohan's power at all until he's a Super Saiyan at the Games? Gohan's hidden power is what Mystic unleashed. If Gohan went from 1,500 to several hundreds of thousands (granted, some of that was zenkais) in a couple of hours, surely his power would be ungodly after four years of constantly rising.

[Bussani]

No one's saying they didn't improve or whatever. All I said was that Saichourou's power releasing thing doesn't "stop coincidentally because fans don't want them to get stronger"; it stops when it's drawn out all their latent power. I don't know if it did that all in one go and Kuririn and Gohan were just building new power on top of it (which, at least for Gohan, fits with Vegeta saying that Saiyans get stronger with each battle), or if it took some time for all of the dormant power to come out, but of course it's going to stop at some point. A person doesn't have infinite dormant power. You might as well say that Goku should have kept getting stronger without doing anything because he drank the Super God Water when he was a kid, which more or less does the same thing.

[cpd12589]

Vegeta surpassing 10k as a kid, and then only being 18k 20 years later is illogical IMO.

Why? He's not doing concentrated training, he's too strong for his missions to give him zenkais all the time like Bardock, and if he goes Oozaru, he's the second-strongest being in the universe.

He has no reason to get stronger, so he doesn't.

Yeah Vegeta being over 10k as a kid makes sense to me since he probably really never received a large zenkai when he was younger. I mean the first fight he ever lost was against Goku, Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe and that was also the first actual "death match" he ever had. So that was probably his biggest zenkai boost by far.

[Senzu_Bean]

That fuzzy thing he and Chaozu were wearing in a title page? I assumed it was just because they were training on a mountain peak or some other cliche.

The Daizenshuu says Chaotzu uses heavy clothing in the mountains. Take that as you want.

[Bussani]

The Daizenshuu says Chaotzu uses heavy clothing in the mountains. Take that as you want.

You know, I assumed that "he wears heavy clothes in the mountains" was talking about the winter clothes he's wearing in the picture, but now I'm not as sure. Maybe Herms or Hujio could tell us what it says in Japanese (it's from the Growing Up section of Daizenshuu 2, for the record)!

[Titan]

That fuzzy thing he and Chaozu were wearing in a title page? I assumed it was just because they were training on a mountain peak or some other cliche.

Fuzzy thing?That's the only time we see him using something like that.Looking at his arms,they seem to be weighted.You always assume what you want to see and you choose to disregard everything else.Fair enough,it is your prerogative.
That's the reason why it is pointless to argue.
The guides that you mentioned before also said that Ten and Chaozu used weighted clothing and those weren't Kami clothes.

All the clothes Kaio ever made were lighter and more durable than usual, not heavier. The weights Goku was using in heaven were something completely different. And again, I doubt Kaio was sending them stuff when he didn't even know Earth was in danger.

That's just selective reasoning and not true at all!Kaio was the first guy who magically conjured Goku's weights while he was training for the 25 bt,then he asks to another Kaio to make the same weights heavier.
Even if you pick the road that it would be hard for them to contact Kaio,that's just BS,cos Kami could easily contact Kaio.He did it before so there is no reason why he wouldn't do it again.
However,the core of the question is simple, kaio way of training envolves the use of weight pressure and as a student who uses his teachings he would be forced to use something to keep that way of training.Thanks to the manga we know that those things only can be what Goku was using later,everything else is speculation.

I never said he didn't. Although that said, we never see anyone using bukujutsu while undergoing gravity training in the manga, so I don't find it that hard to imagine, now that you mention it.

Plus Vegeta wouldn't weigh half as much as the weights Goku had trouble with in the Buu saga under only 300g.

This is unbeliavable.If you want to conveniently use the manga to support the absense of the obvious,stop disregarding the fact that we see two things in the manga about Kaio way of training
1-Goku trying to catch bubbles with a hammer
2-Goku using weights in his arms and legs-the harder training,kaio was talking about
when he started training Piccolo and the others.

Sometimes you use the manga, other times you use the guides always to turn around what you don't like,maybe you should decide yourself.
After all this time, it is pretty clear that you are adjusting to keep you stance on the subject and there is no point to argue in circles.
Everyone uses bukujutsu while training even in the anime we see Vegeta using it while training in the gravity chamber,but of course FOR YOU it is very hard to imagine a warrior/Vegeta training in the air.Amazing!

Plus Vegeta wouldn't weigh half as much as the weights Goku had trouble with in the Buu saga under only 300g.

This point was explained 1000 times before and guess what you were part of it.But it seems something affects your memory when you want to keep your stance on a subject,so i'll say it again.
It is stated in the manga that Vegeta under 300 g would weight around 18 tons in his base form while training for the androids.
Goku's weights had 10 tons and he couldn't even move without his ssj form.

The only reason Vegeta gained ridicolous power was because he fell under the Goku and CO. HAX made for the storyline.

That seems obvious.

[Bussani]

Even if you pick the road that it would be hard for them to contact Kaio,that's just BS,cos Kami could easily contact Kaio.He did it before so there is no reason why he wouldn't do it again.

Yeah, I'm sure Kami just contacted him, told him to send them stuff, but didn't mention the Earth was in danger. That makes sense.

Everyone uses bukujutsu while training even in the anime we see Vegeta using it training in the gravity chamber,but of course FOR YOU it is very hard to imagine a warrior training in the air.Amazing!

Please don't twist what I say. I didn't say I found it hard to imagine them using bukujutsu in high gravity; I said I don't find it hard to imagine they didn't, since we literally never see them do so in the manga, as far as I can see.

Now go ahead and accuse me of "adjusting my stance" like this is a game I'm not letting you win or something.

This point was explained 1000 times before and guess what you were part of it.But it seems something affects your memory when you want to keep your stance on a subject,so i'll say it again.
It is stated in the manga that Vegeta under 300 g would weight around 18 tons in his base form while training for the androids.
Goku's weights had 10 tons and he couldn't even move without his ssj form.

The weights Goku had trouble with were 10 tons each. As South Kaio points out, that's 40 tons--more than double what Vegeta would weigh in his gravity chamber's highest setting. Coincidentally, the weights Goku was using before South Kaio increased them would have made him about as heavy as Vegeta would be in 150g, which is what he was using just a few pages later! I wonder if Toriyama realized that when he drew it.

[Titan]

Please don't twist what I say. I didn't say I found it hard to imagine them using bukujutsu in high gravity; I said I don't find it hard to imagine they didn't, since we literally never see them do so in the manga, as far as I can see.

Now go ahead and accuse me of "adjusting my stance" like this is a game I'm not letting you win or something.

I misread what you said and i apologise,but now you still added well, we never literally see them do so in the manga while at the same time you use the guides as evidence.
I'm not trying to win anything, i ended my argument a long time ago,you are the one who keeps coming.How can anyone win something ?

The weights Goku had trouble with were 10 tons each. As South Kaio points out, that's 40 tons--more than double what Vegeta would weigh in his gravity chamber's highest setting. Coincidentally, the weights Goku was using before South Kaio increased them would have made him about as heavy as Vegeta would be in 150g, which is what he was using just a few pages later! I wonder if Toriyama realized that when he drew it.

The problem is that we are in the last saga at this point not the android saga.
Plus,when Vegeta is stated to have 180 tons while training for the androids, that means he could lift around 200 tons, logically Goku should be able to lift 100 tons since his base form can't be that much weaker than Vegeta's.

[Bussani]

I'm not trying to win anything i ended my argument a long time ago,you are the one who keeps coming.

What...? I've just been replying to points that you've been making. Would you prefer me to just ignore you now?

You still added well, we never literally see them do so in the manga while at the same time you use the guides as evidence.

So...? Am I not allowed to use the guides if I use the manga?

The problem is that we are in the last saga at this point not the android saga.

I don't understand your point. What are you getting at? This all came from me saying that bukujutsu is harder to do when you're under weight, so a Kikoho would only have to provide enough force/weight to make it hard for Cell to fly. I don't know how much force/weight it would take in Semi-Perfect Cell's case, but the point is that it doesn't have to be enough to hurt him to do that.

Plus,when Vegeta is stated to have 180 tons while training for the androids, that means he could lift around 200 tons, logically Goku should be able to lift 100 tons since his base form can't be that much weaker than Vegeta's.

I assume you meant 18 tons there, but where does this 200 tons number come from?

[Titan]

What...? I've just been replying to points that you've been making. Would you prefer me to just ignore you now?

That's not the issue,we already explained our different opinions.You find hard to believe some of my points and vice-versa.I'm not seeing nothing productive at this point.

So...? Am I not allowed to use the guides if I use the manga?

Sometimes you use the manga to say,well we don't see nothing like that in the manga,other times you use the guides to say well,"it's using bukujutsu and lifting those weights at the same time that makes it hard".

I don't understand your point. What are you getting at? This all came from me saying that bukujutsu is harder to do when you're under weight, so a Kikoho would only have to provide enough force/weight to make it hard for Cell to fly. I don't know how much force/weight it would take in Semi-Perfect Cell's case, but the point is that it doesn't have to be enough to hurt him to do that.

You don't understand my point are you joking?
This all came from we never see anyone using bukujutsu in THE MANGA WHILE TRAINING IN THE GRAVITY CHAMBER,well actually we see vegeta doing it in the anime and it is the logical conclusion to make which invalidates you attempt to say that Goku
couldn't lift that weight while using bukujutsu.
Now you came back to the kikoho with another wild theory.Kikoho is not a pushing attack,but a regular ki technique.

I assume you meant 18 tons there, but where does this 200 tons number come from?

Yeah i meant 18 tons,but considering Goku's progress under gravity 10 and 100 he should able to lift easily 100 tons around buu's saga.Goku with a BP of 9 millions should be able to handle 10.000 g.
If you can't understand something so simple i'll let someone else to take over.

[Senzu_Bean]

Vegeta didn't train in a spaceship but in the gravity room, which doesn't seem big and specially tall enough to use bukujutsu in.

And Vegeta at 300x gravity weights, assumed he weights 60 kg, 18 tons not 180 tons.

[Titan]

Vegeta didn't train in a spaceship but in the gravity room, which doesn't seem big and specially tall enough to use bukujutsu in.

Actually, it was the same room with 300 g.A few inches would be enough,however it is easy to see that they had room to fly over there just by looking at Goku training or Vegeta sparring with chibi Trunks.

[Senzu_Bean]

Vegeta didn't train in a spaceship but in the gravity room, which doesn't seem big and specially tall enough to use bukujutsu in.

Actually, it was the same room with 300 g.

Uh? Vegeta for the Artificial Humans trained in the same room he is seen with Trunks 7 years later. The whole spaceship deal is filler.

[Titan]

Vegeta didn't train in a spaceship but in the gravity room, which doesn't seem big and specially tall enough to use bukujutsu in.

Actually, it was the same room with 300 g.

Uh? Vegeta for the Artificial Humans trained in the same room he is seen with Trunks 7 years later. The whole spaceship deal is filler.

Nope!Check the manga.

[Senzu_Bean]

I already did and I stand correct.