Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

Yeah, I doubt it too. The only potential minimum for Piccolo's power at that point is "stronger than Nail." And even then, the whole "being impressed =/= being inferior" idea might beg to differ.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The only potential minimum for Piccolo's power at that point is "stronger than Nail." And even then, the whole "being impressed =/= being inferior" idea might beg to differ.

Nail, who has a battle power of 42,000, is "astonished" at Piccolo's power and says he's acquired "unbelievable power". I don't see how Piccolo can still be weaker than Nail after he's said that.

[dbgtFO]

Goku, training in 100x gravity and taking advantage of the zenkais, goes from ~9,000 to 90,000 in six days.

Piccolo in the same time goes from 2,000 to 300,000?

Piccolo is just that awesome.
Also I find Piccolo still being confident in himself, when he is clearly inferior according to some of you(about 50.000, 1/10th of first form Freeza), ridiculous, since it IS Piccolo we are talking about here, you know the guy who usually knows his chances against his opponents, when their full power has been revealed.
But that's just me though.

[Senzu_Bean]

Piccolo before merging with Nail and thus basically Piccolo Daimao was almost as arrogant and stubborn as Vegeta. I wouldn't be surprised if he claims he can beat someone when he is far weaker. However he is definitely far superior to Nail after Kaio's training. I would put him below 250,000 (Vegeta's battle power) but stronger than 100,000. After all Krillin is at 75,000 and I don't see Piccolo being weaker than Krillin. And just throwing numbers in here I have Tenshinhan at this time at 95,000.

[lash]

There is absolutely no way Piccolo can be over 90K before fusing with Nail. Absolutely no way.
Like someone said, Goku trains with Kaiosama 26x longer then Piccolo, then goes for 100x Gravity training for about a week getting multiple near death powerups and toping out at 90K.
Piccolo starts at barely 2-3K for 6 days with a max of 10x gravity and ends up stronger then Base Goku? Simply impossible. "Plot" doesn't excuse it, considering Piccolo is really only there to fuse with Nail anyway.

By the dialogue exchanged, he's definitely stronger then Nail though. I'd see him at ~60K max personally.

[Fox666]

Piccolo had no idea of Freeza's power. What everybody heard from Kuririn was that Freeza "was even stronger than Vegeta", which let's face is not the best way to describe Freeza, who was miles away from Vegeta. And to make things worse Piccolo never saw Vegeta's power, except that Nappa would obey to him. In the end Piccolo was very impressed at Freeza's Ki.

So I just don't think you can take Piccolo confidence seriously, as if it proves something.

About Nail's line... an old argument from this forum: "being impressed at ≠ being weaker than". Nail had some expectations of what power would have the split parts of the namekian sent to Earth, and Piccolo was far beyond that. I can imagine Nail looking at a crystal ball and watching the fight against Nappa and saying "that namek got an unbelievable power"

Essentially, Nail's line means "you are strong" and not "you are stronger than me". From the habitants of planet namek, Piccolo would be the 2nd strongest, and that's why Nail was surprised. However, Nail is to the other warrior type names what Vegeta is for the normal saiyans (i.e. Raditz).

[dbgtFO]

"Plot" doesn't excuse it, considering Piccolo is really only there to fuse with Nail anyway.

Yeah it does, otherwise this:

By the dialogue exchanged, he's definitely stronger then Nail though. I'd see him at ~60K max personally.

Doesn't make any sense, if it's not some crazy plot device.
I'm just throwing normal logic for power growth out of the window for it to make sense to me, since his power growth was indeed absurdly large no matter which way you look at it, so I just made it even more absurd, because it doesn't contradict anything anyways.

Piccolo had no idea of Freeza's power. What everybody heard from Kuririn was that Freeza "was even stronger than Vegeta", which let's face is not the best way to describe Freeza, who was miles away from Vegeta. And to make things worse Piccolo never saw Vegeta's power, except that Nappa would obey to him.

From what he has been told he would probably be way stronger than Nappa at least for thinking he could stand up to a guy, who is far stronger than Vegeta, who he knows is stronger than the aforementioned Nappa.

In the end Piccolo was very impressed at Freeza's Ki.

And? You wrote this:

an old argument from this forum: "being impressed at ≠ being weaker than".

So I just don't think you can take Piccolo confidence seriously, as if it proves something.

To me it does, because of what I already stated about Piccolo's reactions to Nappa and Raditz.

How I would rate Freeza's forms compared to pre fusion Piccolo and pre healing Goku.

3rd Suppression = 200.000 - large ki, stated by Piccolo
-Full Power = 530.000 - even more absurdly large, Gohan and Krillin are shocked at this kind of power.
2nd Suppression = 795.000 - initially. I put him below 1 million, since Freeza's Full Power would be registered anyways by a scouter IMO.
- vs. Gohan = 900.000.
- vs. Piccolo/Full Power = 1.060.000. - stronger and faster than weighted Piccolo.
1st Suppression = 2.120.000 - never powers further up in this state, so he is most likely at full power only in this form. Also this is actually, where Goku admits he would have trouble defeating him, so he is most likely referring to his Kaiokenx10(900.000) being useless against him and Kaiokenx20 would only rival him(1.800.000)
True Form = 4.240.000.
- Full Power form = 120.000.000. - basically his relaxed state.
-bursts of full power 140.000.000. - when he is outputting the most ki he can muster like when charging Goku's Kamehameha. I'm pretty sure Goku actually tried to kill Freeza with that Kamehameha, since he said "Die Freeza!!" or something..

Piccolo(with weights) = 318.000 - absurdly large, because it's already absurd for him to be at 50k.
Nail(post Freeza fight) = 3 - Nail was completely destroyed by Freeza and has thus lost most of his power.
Hypothetical Piccolo Kami fusion(with weights) - 636.000 - Nail states that those two reuniting would be enough to take care of Freeza and I treat Kami fusion as a 2x multiplier anywas.
Piccolo(Nail fusion w. weights) = 954.000. - AxB, because why not, Nail did state that their fusion would be many times stronger(which of course could fuel the claim that Piccolo was 1/10th of first form Freeza, since most people won't consider 3 as many times, but anyways.)
Piccolo w/o weights = 1.330.000. - I decided to reuse an old BP of his and multiply it by 1000.

[Senzu_Bean]

There is absolutely no way Piccolo can be over 90K before fusing with Nail. Absolutely no way.

Piccolo says he will be stronger than Goku after training with Kaio and there is no reason why he shouldn't besides fan-made growth strength progression.

[Fox666]

Hypothetical Piccolo Kami fusion(with weights) - 636.000 - Nail states that those two reuniting would be enough to take care of Freeza and I treat Kami fusion as a 2x multiplier anywas.

You know that is not true. Kami fusion goes to a random number. I see it possible that if Piccolo fused with Kami instead of Nail, he would go instantly somewhere near the power he had against 17.

[dbgtFO]

Hypothetical Piccolo Kami fusion(with weights) - 636.000 - Nail states that those two reuniting would be enough to take care of Freeza and I treat Kami fusion as a 2x multiplier anywas.

You know that is not true. Kami fusion goes to a random number. I see it possible that if Piccolo fused with Kami instead of Nail, he would go instantly somewhere near the power he had against 17.

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”

If what you're saying is true then Nail wouldn't question Piccolo's abilities to kill Freeza, since Piccolo/Kami would be several hundred times stronger than first form Freeza.
Also don't forget this:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.5-7
Kuririn: “...What’s more, Piccolo’s greatly improved, so he’ll become an extraordinary warrior. If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”

The result of Piccolo's fusion with Kami is so powerful, because of Piccolo himself being pretty powerful beforehand, not because the fused warrior has a fixed amount of strength he attains at the moment he is born.

[Fox666]

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”

If what you're saying is true then Nail wouldn't question Piccolo's abilities to kill Freeza, since Piccolo/Kami would be several hundred times stronger than first form Freeza.
Also don't forget this:

I guess Nail can't be sure about something of that nature?

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.5-7
Kuririn: “...What’s more, Piccolo’s greatly improved, so he’ll become an extraordinary warrior. If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”

The result of Piccolo's fusion with Kami is so powerful, because of Piccolo himself being pretty powerful beforehand, not because the fused warrior has a fixed amount of strength he attains at the moment he is born.

Isn't Kuririn refering to Piccolo's power compared to the original King Piccolo?

[Piccolo Daimao]

There is absolutely no way Piccolo can be over 90K before fusing with Nail. Absolutely no way.

Piccolo says he will be stronger than Goku after training with Kaio and there is no reason why he shouldn't besides fan-made growth strength progression.

That doesn't mean he will be. He can't be completely sure that he'll surpass Goku with Kaio's training, especially when Goku's training at 100G and spamming near-death power-ups for the same amount of days that Piccolo was at Kaio's for. And this is the same guy that said he could defeat Freeza (and all he knows about him is that he's stronger than Vegeta, and all he knows about Vegeta is that he's stronger than Nappa), yet called him "a monster" and said his ki was "absurdly large".

Piccolo only has to be over 42,000 for Nail to make that comment about his power. There's no reason why he should be over 90,000.

[Senzu_Bean]

Piccolo only has to be over 42,000 for Nail to make that comment about his power. There's no reason why he should be over 90,000.

Above 90,000 is over 42,000 so...

[Piccolo Daimao]

Piccolo only has to be over 42,000 for Nail to make that comment about his power. There's no reason why he should be over 90,000.

Above 90,000 is over 42,000 so...

I just think over 90,000 is going overboard. He really doesn't need to be that high. It's bad enough Piccolo got that high in only 6 days, but to push it over 90,000 is overkill, IMO. The highest battle power I'd consider giving Piccolo would be 60,000.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo only has to be over 42,000 for Nail to make that comment about his power. There's no reason why he should be over 90,000.

Above 90,000 is over 42,000 so...

I just think over 90,000 is going overboard. He really doesn't need to be that high. It's bad enough Piccolo got that high in only 6 days, put to push it over 90,000 is overkill, IMO.

Of course it is. That's the whole point! Piccolo by doing some random off screen training got so strong, that even Nail thought it was incredible.
There should be nothing wrong with placing him higher than even Goku, because it's already ridiculous, that he got that strong to begin with!
That's why I just throw whatever logic about power growth out the window and instead look at his claims and reactions to his opponent to determine how strong he actually got.
And I gotta admit my last take at him wasn't good enough, since I like to use the very first BPs assigned to him as a theme of his power growth throughout the series.
I could see it looking like this:

Saiyan Arc part 1.
Piccolo (weighted) = 322
- w/o weights = 408.
- Makankossapo = 1330

Freeza Arc
Piccolo (weighted) = 322.000.
- w/o weights = 408.000.
Piccolo post merging(weighted) = 966.000.
-w/o weights = 1.330.000.

Androids/Cell Arc part 1.
Piccolo = 161.000.000
- Kami fusion = 322.000.000.

Buu Arc
Piccolo = 1.330.000.000.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I just think over 90,000 is going overboard. He really doesn't need to be that high. It's bad enough Piccolo got that high in only 6 days, put to push it over 90,000 is overkill, IMO.

Of course it is. That's the whole point! Piccolo by doing some random off screen training got so strong, that even Nail thought it was incredible.
There should be nothing wrong with placing him higher than even Goku, because it's already ridiculous, that he got that strong to begin with!
That's why I just throw whatever logic about power growth out the window and instead look at his claims and reactions to his opponent to determine how strong he actually got.

Piccolo getting to 55,000 is ridiculous, I admit that. Piccolo getting to over 90,000 is even more ridiculous, and I don't see why I should make it even more ridiculous when I can just keep at normal ridiculous level...if you know what I mean.

Piccolo claiming he could defeat Freeza is just a combination of things. Wanting to get revenge on Freeza for killing the Namekians (I think he even said "I want to fight! I want to fight on my planet, against the one who killed my people!") and misinformation. He could just attribute himself gaining considerable strength to mean that he's now stronger than Goku and Freeza, when he doesn't have a grasp of Vegeta or Freeza's power. All he knew was that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa, and even then he didn't feel his actual power during battle, and as for Freeza, all he knows is that Freeza's stronger than Vegeta, a guy who he hasn't even felt the true power of and only knows he's stronger than the guy who killed him.

I think Piccolo was shitting bricks at Freeza's power, but he didn't show it because...you know, he's Piccolo. He said Freeza was "a monster", he said his ki was "absurdly large" and merged with Nail because he nor Nail believed he could defeat Freeza. I understand your opinion, but I just wanted to say what I think.

[dbgtFO]

I just think over 90,000 is going overboard. He really doesn't need to be that high. It's bad enough Piccolo got that high in only 6 days, put to push it over 90,000 is overkill, IMO.

Of course it is. That's the whole point! Piccolo by doing some random off screen training got so strong, that even Nail thought it was incredible.
There should be nothing wrong with placing him higher than even Goku, because it's already ridiculous, that he got that strong to begin with!
That's why I just throw whatever logic about power growth out the window and instead look at his claims and reactions to his opponent to determine how strong he actually got.

Piccolo getting to 55,000 is ridiculous, I admit that. Piccolo getting to over 90,000 is even more ridiculous, and I don't see why I should make it even more ridiculous when I can just keep at normal ridiculous level...if you know what I mean.

I do and I can see, where you are coming from, but since we are doing unofficial battle powers anyways, I see no problem with me making Piccolo as strong, as I liked him to be, since it doesn't really contradict anything.

I understand your opinion, but I just wanted to say what I think.

I'm totally fine with that

[Fox666]

Surely there are levels of power that are obscure. I.e. Dende after having his power unleashed. However I think that when things come to Piccolo, fans over estimate his power. Tenshinhan comes in second place.

I can see 3 points where Piccolo's power is open for discussion: 1) before merging with Nail 2) during his fight with Dr. Gero 3) After training in the room of time - and in my oppinion Piccolo is waaay over estimated in all these instances.

I feel like if Yajirobe was popular like Piccolo, people would argue that he should have a battle power of 1 million to survive Dr. Gero and #19 attack.

[dbgtFO]

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”

If what you're saying is true then Nail wouldn't question Piccolo's abilities to kill Freeza, since Piccolo/Kami would be several hundred times stronger than first form Freeza.
Also don't forget this:

I guess Nail can't be sure about something of that nature?

Who knows? Either way what you said about Piccolo getting close to #17, if he just fused with Kami can't be true, because he hadn't fused with Nail yet.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P11.5-7
Kuririn: “...What’s more, Piccolo’s greatly improved, so he’ll become an extraordinary warrior. If Goku and the others are Super Saiyans, then Piccolo will be a Super Namekian.”

The result of Piccolo's fusion with Kami is so powerful, because of Piccolo himself being pretty powerful beforehand, not because the fused warrior has a fixed amount of strength he attains at the moment he is born.

Isn't Kuririn refering to Piccolo's power compared to the original King Piccolo?

No he isn't. Here's another quote from Strength Checker:
Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-7
Subject: Piccolo
Trunks: “Merged?! You mean he and God…?! I heard they used to be one, but split up.”
Kuririn: “They were! And Piccolo was already incredibly strong, so simply by doing that…Th-this is a Super Namekian!!”
Trunks: “Magnificent. To think that he’d be capable of this much of a power-up...”

I can see 3 points where Piccolo's power is open for discussion: 1) before merging with Nail 2) during his fight with Dr. Gero 3) After training in the room of time - and in my oppinion Piccolo is waaay over estimated in all these instances.

Don't you like the awesomeness of our favourite green man?
1) I already took care of.
2)

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

The power Piccolo showcased was on a level, Krillin only expected power from SSJs, so Piccolo is at the very least way above Goku's Kaiokenx20.
3) Piccolo was weaker than the Cell Jr. he fought, but not so much that he was completely losing. That's why he was able to stand his ground instead of getting beat up like everyone else except Vegeta and Trunks.
I consider him USSJ Vegeta level at this point.

[Fox666]

No he isn't. Here's another quote from Strength Checker:
Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-7
Subject: Piccolo
Trunks: “Merged?! You mean he and God…?! I heard they used to be one, but split up.”
Kuririn: “They were! And Piccolo was already incredibly strong, so simply by doing that…Th-this is a Super Namekian!!”
Trunks: “Magnificent. To think that he’d be capable of this much of a power-up...”

Sorry, but I don't see why this is different. If we think that the original King Piccolo had a battle power of 220, and now Piccolo has millions...

2)

Too many quotes?

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

The power Piccolo showcased was on a level, Krillin only expected power from SSJs, so Piccolo is at the very least way above Goku's Kaiokenx20.

I don't think that is the case. To understand that line, you must read the entire chapter.

The chapter (and the one before that) goes on something like this:
• <Trunks arrives and find #19 head>
• Trunks: "Who is that fatass androids??"
• <Piccolo beat the crap out of #20>
• Kuririn: "OMG Piccolo so incredible, he is not even SSJ"
• Piccolo: "WTF this android defeated SSJ Trunks... does the future changed and this android is weak, or we became too strong?"
• <Trunks arrives>
• Trunks: "Guys, I don't want to sound mean... but this old hag here is not the androids that defeated me"
• Everybody: "Whaaat??"

Reading the chapter, my conclusion is that Kuririn was mistaken, simply like that. Everybody believed that #20 was the android that defeated Trunks. So Kuririn's line makes complete sense even if Piccolo was nowhere close to the level of a Super Saiyan.

And I should remember to not take serious the reactions of beings like Kuririn and Tenshinhan. The SSJ level is so beyond their comprehension they wet their pants if they see anyone with a power like that.