Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Senzu_Bean]

If Piccolo merging with Nail made him capable of attaining higher battle powers he wouldn't if not merging with him then I agree.

If Piccolo merging with Nail made him automatically gain power, beside the one he gained on Namek, just cause of that then I don't agree.

[Kaboom]

If Piccolo merging with Nail made him capable of attaining higher battle powers he wouldn't if not merging with him then I agree.

Yeah, I think that's what he's trying to say, and I more or less agree with it. Merging with Nail not only gave him a very large boost right then and there, but it also increased his potential and rate of growth when training after that.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo arriving on Namek should be around Gohan's power. A power that Gohan can't even dream about and is enough to help out against Freeza. I would think 200-300k would be the best range for Gohan and Piccolo. Piccolo fusing with Kami should double his power based on that, and seeing how strong he is in the Androids Saga this is a common belief nowadays.

Gohan at 200.000 &
Piccolo at 322.000 fulfills that

Piccolo during the Androids Saga is stronger than the power he felt from SSJ Trunks. Piccolo is well aware that Trunks is nothing to the androids , yet he does not lack in confidence going in to fight against them. I personally put Piccolo a couple of shades above Yardrat SSJ Goku...

Having checked the relevant quotes from Strength Checker I come to the conclusion that Piccolo actually isn't stronger than SSJ Trunks anyways. Here I'll explain why:

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Piccolo isn't talking solely about himself, but rather the Z Fighters as a whole, so he isn't necessarily stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Vegeta thinks that the androids aren't as great, as he thought they would be, which implies Android 19 & Dr. Gero < SSJ Trunks. Piccolo heard this and that is probably the reason why he decided to fight Dr. Gero in the first place.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow….Was it that you weren’t was as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

If Piccolo really was significantly stronger, than Trunks, he wouldn't have questioned the androids strength being less than what they thought, so Piccolo still doesn't seem to be any stronger than the Trunks from 3 years back.
And also to post my thoughts on Trunks being way stronger, than 3 years ago:

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

This is what Trunks said before they all went chasing after Dr. Gero. It's close to what he said 3 years ago!

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

And after getting beat up he says this:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

So it seems, that Trunks was basically lying all along, since he was able to fight fairly well against his androids(who IMO held back just like they did against Gohan).
That's just what I think. It's also worth noting, that Trunks isn't stated to have become stronger after those 3 years(8 months for him) and if a power up isn't noted, it didn't happen.

Piccolo Post Rosat, which would only have been one year of training I would place somewhere between Imperfect Cell and Semi Cell. Kamiccolo Pre Rosat is nowhere near Imperfect Cell, Cell tanks Piccolo's massive attack with ease. Piccolo is stated to grown a level post rosat, but still knows he's nothing. Not to mention he says he feels that Semi Cell's power is unnatural and does not feel he could ever be stronger than him.

Him standing up to the Cell Jr. should be enough to reach the conclusion, that he's above Semiperfect Cell IMO.

Not to mention the Base Saiyans implications in the Buu Saga which would suggest that he is weaker than even them.

Nah, here's why.
1. Gohan says the Saiyans shouldn't turn SSJ at the tournament, which if Piccolo truly is stronger than base Saiyans means that he is telling them to lose on purpose.
My answer: Gohan should be ignored, since nobody listened to him anyways(Goten and Trunks both turning SSJ in the Junior Division's finals) and Vegeta went as far as allowing a wizard to make him go past his limits just to be able to fight Kakarotto. So if Vegeta was cornered by Piccolo he would have undoubtedly gone SSJ anyways, since we saw the lengths he would go to just to fight Goku.
2. Vegeta says that using regular power he is the strongest.
My answer: Vegeta is his arrogant self and thinks, that he naturally is the strongest in existence and who's to say that he actually knew #18 and Piccolo would be participating, before he saw them at the tournament?
3. Dabra & Babidi only want the Saiyans to enter their spaceship, meaning that even Piccolo is weaker than the base Saiyans.
My answer: neither Babidi nor Dabra felt the full power of the Saiyans(seen when they thought Pui Pui could beat them and their surprise at Vegeta being way stronger than the Eartlings from 300 years ago), so they most certainly didn't feel the full power of Piccolo, meaning their comment is irrelevant because of that.
It's basically a plot device, since Piccolo, who is known for his great hearing didn't hear about Dabra and Babidi's plan, even though it is later shown, that he was able to hear Vegeta talking about Gohan being dead from the exact same distance!

[Piccolo Daimao]

If Piccolo merging with Nail made him capable of attaining higher battle powers he wouldn't if not merging with him then I agree.

Yeah, I think that's what he's trying to say, and I more or less agree with it. Merging with Nail not only gave him a very large boost right then and there, but it also increased his potential and rate of growth when training after that.

Yep, that's what I'm saying.

[Fox666]

3. Dabra & Babidi only want the Saiyans to enter their spaceship, meaning that even Piccolo is weaker than the base Saiyans.
My answer: neither Babidi nor Dabra felt the full power of the Saiyans(seen when they thought Pui Pui could beat them and their surprise at Vegeta being way stronger than the Eartlings from 300 years ago), so they most certainly didn't feel the full power of Piccolo, meaning their comment is irrelevant because of that.
It's basically a plot device, since Piccolo, who is known for his great hearing didn't hear about Dabra and Babidi's plan, even though it is later shown, that he was able to hear Vegeta talking about Gohan being dead from the exact same distance!

You win this one. There are so many plot holes already on there, and not to mention that you can't tell how strong someone is based on their supressed power.

You just can't take that line serious.

Having checked the relevant quotes from Strength Checker I come to the conclusion that Piccolo actually isn't stronger than SSJ Trunks anyways. Here I'll explain why:

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Piccolo isn't talking solely about himself, but rather the Z Fighters as a whole, so he isn't necessarily stronger than SSJ Trunks.

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Vegeta thinks that the androids aren't as great, as he thought they would be, which implies Android 19 & Dr. Gero < SSJ Trunks. Piccolo heard this and that is probably the reason why he decided to fight Dr. Gero in the first place.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow….Was it that you weren’t was as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

If Piccolo really was significantly stronger, than Trunks, he wouldn't have questioned the androids strength being less than what they thought, so Piccolo still doesn't seem to be any stronger than the Trunks from 3 years back. (...)

I never really understand why suddenly people were saying that Piccolo or who else should be stronger than SSJ Trunks was. You surely proved it is impossible, but I never really felt there was valid evidence for that.

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too… B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

This is what Trunks said before they all went chasing after Dr. Gero. It's close to what he said 3 years ago!

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

And after getting beat up he says this:

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

So it seems, that Trunks was basically lying all along, since he was able to fight fairly well against his androids(who IMO held back just like they did against Gohan).
That's just what I think. It's also worth noting, that Trunks isn't stated to have become stronger after those 3 years(8 months for him) and if a power up isn't noted, it didn't happen.

I marked some phrases red. I don't really see why Trunks would be "lying", for me Trunks explained it relatively well.

[dbgtFO]

You win this one. There are so many plot holes already on there, and not to mention that you can't tell how strong someone is based on their supressed power.

You just can't take that line serious.

Well at least we agree on something

I never really understand why suddenly people were saying that Piccolo or who else should be stronger than SSJ Trunks was. You surely proved it is impossible, but I never really felt there was valid evidence for that.

Yeah, I used to believe that as well, but now that Herms has put up the relevant quotes I realized, that I was way off.

I marked some phrases red. I don't really see why Trunks would be "lying", for me Trunks explained it relatively well.

Okay, but it seems weird to me.

Some thoughts on fusing with your other half..
The Child of Katatz(TCoK) was originally 1 person, but when he wanted to become God of Earth he split his power in two and since King Piccolo regained the power he had, when he wished for Shenlong to restore his youth logically TCoK before splitting had a BP of 520(260*2). This is the same concept, as Tenshinhan's technique he used against Goku, where he split in 4. Each body has 1/4th of Tenshinhan's original power let's say 240, since he's stronger, than Cyborg Tao, so each body would be at BP of 60, which is nothing compared to 18 year old Goku's Full Power(910).

We know however that Kami-sama vastly improved over the years to such a level that King Piccolo was nothing compared to him(Kami defeating Goku with his finger, when we know that Goku was equal to King Piccolo), so if Kami and King Piccolo merged they would most ceratinly be way stronger, than they originally was. I would say that Kami alone is as strong as he was before splitting, so Kami would be at 520 and the merged being of Kami and King Piccolo would then be at 1040.

The Piccolo who finally merges with Kami to become 1 again is not only incredibly strong compared to Kami-sama, but he is also merged with another dude making him 1½ person in one! Which I believe definetely makes the fusion multiplier with Kami even greater!
So since Piccolo already has 1½ souls inside of him, I find it reasonable to say that Kami merging with him triples his power rather than doubling it, since they are 3 persons in one and not 2 persons in one. How do you feel about this idea?

In terms of battle power I have:
SSJ Vegeta = 230.000.000.
SSJ sick Goku = 80.000.000.
-unseen full power = 220.000.000.
SSJ Trunks = 150.000.000.
Piccolo = 100.000.000.
-merged = 300.000.000.
#19 = 50.000.000.
+ Kamehameha = 80.000.000.
+ Goku's ki = 84.400.000.
+ Vegeta's ki = 125.000.000.
Dr. Gero(#20) = 75.000.000.
+ Vegeta's ki = 78.000.000.
+ Piccolo's ki = 80.000.000.
#16 = 400.000.000.
#17 = 300.000.000.
#18 = 270.000.000.

[Fox666]

The Child of Katatz(TCoK) was originally 1 person, but when he wanted to become God of Earth he split his power in two and since King Piccolo regained the power he had, when he wished for Shenlong to restore his youth logically TCoK before splitting had a BP of 520(260*2). This is the same concept, as Tenshinhan's technique he used against Goku, where he split in 4. Each body has 1/4th of Tenshinhan's original power let's say 240, since he's stronger, than Cyborg Tao, so each body would be at BP of 60, which is nothing compared to 18 year old Goku's Full Power(910).

I don't think that would be the case. Just look there:

12. Katatz’s child [#FR1#12]

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P2.5-7
Context: Kuririn explained to Saichourou how the Child of Katatz came to be on Earth.
Saichourou: “You speak as though the child died… Was it old age…? Or was he killed…?”
Kuririn: “Killed. By a Saiyan called Vegeta…who’s here right now…”
Saichourou: “By a Saiyan…? It is true that Saiyans are terrible, but…but to have killed that prodigy of the Dragon Clan… …Is it possible that he was…a Super Saiyan…?”

Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: Saichourou reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of Kami and Piccolo.
Saichourou: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”

Saichourou was reading Kuririn's mind, so he certainly knew how strong Vegeta was. I think it's just impossible for Katatz’s child to have a battle power lower than Vegeta.

Not to mention that Saichourou implies only a Super Saiyan could do so, making it possible for Katatz’s child being close in power to Piccolo after merging with Kami.

#16 = 400.000.000.
#17 = 300.000.000.

I certain don't agree with this. Cell was so increadible beyond Piccolo or #17... there is no way the difference would be so small

[dbgtFO]

I don't think that would be the case. Just look there:

Saichourou was reading Kuririn's mind, so he certainly knew how strong Vegeta was. I think it's just impossible for Katatz’s child to have a battle power lower than Vegeta.

Not to mention that Saichourou implies only a Super Saiyan could do so, making it possible for Katatz’s child being close in power to Piccolo after merging with Kami.

I just think it's because his potential is perhaps on par with Nail, not that a fusion between those two right then and there would make him Super Saiyan level by default.

#16 = 400.000.000.
#17 = 300.000.000.

I certain don't agree with this. Cell was so increadible beyond Piccolo or #17... there is no way the difference would be so small

That is not a small difference, if you use my rules about how differences in battle power relate.
In my view having a BP, which is only 75% of your opponent is enough for your opponent to completely tank any attack you dish out from that level.
Compare to Goku with a BP of 16.000 being helpless against 18.000 Vegeta:

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"

Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P13.5-6/P14.2
Goku: “Shit…!! His power and speed… [ ] I can’t keep up, even with the Kaio-Ken x2. [ ] I don’t care if my body breaks or I die! I’ve gotta up the Kaio-Ken to x3!!”

16.000 is 88,88% of 18.000...

[Fox666]

Vegeta was stronger than Goku, however the difference was not astonishing. Goku could fight Vegeta. Vegeta just had the upper hand, while Goku couldn't maintain the Kaio-ken 2x all the time.

Cell power was way beyond that of Piccolo. Not just Piccolo was paralyzed when Cell powered-up, but it looked like every Cell punch would pull split Piccolo in pieces. Cell also took a direct blast from Piccolo without a single scratch, while #17 flee from the blast.

Personally I put Cell with over 200% of Piccolo's power... of course this increase a lot the level of Cell saga fighters.

[dbgtFO]

Vegeta was stronger than Goku, however the difference was not astonishing. Goku could fight Vegeta.

Goku says he can't keep up with the Kaiokenx2, Vegeta is far beyond Goku even though they are that close in power.

Vegeta just had the upper hand, while Goku couldn't maintain the Kaio-ken 2x all the time.

If the real reason for why Goku was losing was because of being unable to maintain the Kaioken at all times, don't you think Goku would have used that as an excuse instead of saying that even with KKx2 he can't keep up?
Should we agree to disagree perhaps?

Cell power was way beyond that of Piccolo. Not just Piccolo was paralyzed when Cell powered-up, but it looked like every Cell punch would pull split Piccolo in pieces. Cell also took a direct blast from Piccolo without a single scratch, while #17 flee from the blast.

Another example is Vegeta at 24.000 vs. Kui at 18.000. Kui was scared shitless of 24.000, when he himself has a power that's 75% of that. Vegeta defeated Kui in 3 hits.

Personally I put Cell with over 200% of Piccolo's power... of course this increase a lot the level of Cell saga fighters.

Indeed it does.. have you posted your BP chart yet? It would be interesting to see it.

[Fox666]

I have, but I do some changes all times... my list from Cell saga is somewhat like this:

Keep in mind that I don't keep track of unnecessary power-ups, so I don't deal with power-ups after the 3 years of training before the androids arrive. I do this because I believe I would get far from the truth if I do so.

• Trunks SSJ: 150,000,000
• Yamcha: 10,000
• Android #19: 2,000,000
• Android #20: 2,000,000
• Goku SSJ: 150,000,000¹
• Android #19 (post absorption): 150,000,000
• Vegeta SSJ: 175,000,000
• Piccolo: 3,000,000

• Android #18: 220,000,000
• Android #17: 230,000,000
• Imperfect Cell: 200,000,000²

• Piccolo (post fusion): 230,000,000
• Imperfect Cell (post absorption): 500,000,000
• Android #16: 500,000,000
• Semi-perfect Cell: 1,000,000,000

• Vegeta SSJ state 2: 1,400,000
• Trunks SSJ state 2: 1,200,000
• Perfect Cell: 4,000,000,000
• Trunks SSJ state 3: 2,400,000

• Goku Full-power SSJ: 3,000,000,000
• Gohan Full-power SSJ: 2,700,000,000
• Cell Jr.: 1,300,000,000
• Gohan SSJ2: 5,400,000,000
• Perfect Cell (post zenkai): 5,400,000,000

¹Goku was sick, while his Ki was still the same, he couldn't keep up his fighting ability with it.
²Cell initial power is simply the sum of Freeza and Cold battle powers

[dbgtFO]

I have, but I do some changes all times... my list from Cell saga is somewhat like this:

Keep in mind that I don't keep track of unnecessary power-ups, so I don't deal with power-ups after the 3 years of training before the androids arrive. I do this because I believe I would get far from the truth if I do so.

There is no truth to it until a new guidebook gives us battle powers post Freeza Arc, so you can go as crazy with them as you want.

• Trunks SSJ: 150,000,000
• Yamcha: 10,000
• Android #19: 2,000,000
• Android #20: 2,000,000
• Goku SSJ: 150,000,000¹
• Android #19 (post absorption): 150,000,000
• Vegeta SSJ: 175,000,000
• Piccolo: 3,000,000

Yeah I thought I remembered you put Piccolo at that laughably low level
Also according to Dr. Gero he should be stronger, than #19, but whatever.
BTW is Gero at that level post absorbing Vegeta's ki and Piccolo's ki?

• Android #18: 220,000,000
• Android #17: 230,000,000
• Imperfect Cell: 200,000,000²...
²Cell initial power is simply the sum of Freeza and Cold battle powers

So you have King Cold at 80.000.000?

• Goku Full-power SSJ: 3,000,000,000
• Gohan Full-power SSJ: 2,700,000,000
• Cell Jr.: 1,300,000,000

SSJ Gohan should be stronger, than Goku though don't you think? Everything points to it.
Also according to Vegeta himself he is above 50% Goku, so the Cell Jr., which was equal to him can't be lower than 1.5 billion(½ of FPSSJ Goku).

[Fox666]

There is no truth to it until a new guidebook gives us battle powers post Freeza Arc, so you can go as crazy with them as you want.

I can, but I don't want to go crazy.

Yeah I thought I remembered you put Piccolo at that laughably low level

Yes, I thinks it's outrageous to put him on tens of millions. I could at least put him vaguely over Vegeta's base power, but not much beyond it.

I just don't think these lines about "confidence" or whatever prove anything about how Piccolo is compared to a SSJ. I prefer to go by the panel which a blast from Vegeta (base form) to destroy the laboratory door throw Piccolo away.

Also according to Dr. Gero he should be stronger, than #19, but whatever.

I am not sure if he is "stronger". I think it's possible for him taking in consideration his intelligence or so.

Edit: You are right! In Daizenshuu 7, #20 is clearly stated as stronger than #19

BTW is Gero at that level post absorbing Vegeta's ki and Piccolo's ki?

I don't think it's a considerable power-up. Vegeta was using a blast to clean up the terrain, nothing else. A REAL blast from SSJ Vegeta would surely blow up the Earth.

And as Piccolo himself stated, the power Dr. Gero absorbed was his supressed power, it's not worth anything. Goku likes to keep his level at 5,000, while Trunks disguised himself as a normal human with a battle power of 5.

So I don't think it's worth no list a difference. Dr. Gero was just idiot, and even more absurd he believed he could take Vegeta if he absorbed energy one more time, which prove wrong when he tried.

So you have King Cold at 80.000.000?

Exactly.

SSJ Gohan should be stronger, than Goku though don't you think? Everything points to it.

I don't think he is. I don't think it is implied that he is superior than Goku, but rather that he is close to Goku.

Also according to Vegeta himself he is above 50% Goku, so the Cell Jr., which was equal to him can't be lower than 1.5 billion(½ of FPSSJ Goku).

Well, Vegeta never said he surprassed the 50% of Goku. I look at him somewhere in the same level as before, however curious about Goku's maximum power.

[dbgtFO]

Yes, I thinks it's outrageous to put him on tens of millions. I could at least put him vaguely over Vegeta's base power, but not much beyond it.

I just don't think these lines about "confidence" or whatever prove anything about how Piccolo is compared to a SSJ. I prefer to go by the panel which a blast from Vegeta (base form) to destroy the laboratory door throw Piccolo away.

I already showed you using that logic would make Krillin as strong as 50% Freeza!

I don't think he is. I don't think it is implied that he is superior than Goku, but rather that he is close to Goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “Th-that brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power…Th-this is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Cell says that the only thing Goku was wrong about was Gohan's power compared to himself, but he implies that Goku was right about the other things he said ie. Gohan being stronger, than Goku.

Well, Vegeta never said he surprassed the 50% of Goku. I look at him somewhere in the same level as before, however curious about Goku's maximum power.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2
Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s full power from a distance.
Vegeta (to self): “Da-damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…”

Vegeta senses Goku's power(without knowing it's only ½ of it) and trains to surpass it.

Chapter: 394 (DBZ 200), P10.2-4
Context: Day of the Cell Games.
Goku: “It’s finally time. Huh? Where’s Vegeta?”
Piccolo: “He went on ahead…”
Goku: “Oh-ho. Rarin’ to go, huh? He must’ve gotten a lot better.”

Goku hypothesizes that Vegeta is a lot better, than before.

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

Vegeta having sensed Goku's power(still not knowing it was ½) says that he will be the one finishing off Cell, heavily implying that he's way stronger than the Goku he sensed.

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P6.3-4
Context: after Goku unveils his full power
Vegeta: “S-so this is his true power?...”

Vegeta not knowing about Goku's true power beforehand.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even Kakarot…”

Here Vegeta admits that despite doing his special training he didn't surpass Goku afterall, but most certainly only ½ of his power.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P13.5
Context: after Goku says there’s other people to fight besides him
Cell: “It’s the same thing. Vegeta and Trunks may have raised their power, but they should still be inferior to you…”

Cell also seems to think that Vegeta has become stronger, than 10 days ago...

[Fox666]

I already showed you using that logic would make Krillin as strong as 50% Freeza!

It's the only panel out there to compare Piccolo...

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “Th-that brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power…Th-this is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Cell says that the only thing Goku was wrong about was Gohan's power compared to himself, but he implies that Goku was right about the other things he said ie. Gohan being stronger, than Goku.

I guess "wasn't a complete bluff" is not enough to say that Gohan was superior to Goku? As far I remember, Goku was expecting that Gohan would surpass Cell if he is enraged.

Chapter: 395 (DBZ 201), P13.5
Context: after Goku says he’ll fight first
Vegeta: “Do what you want. Either way, I’ll be the one to finish this…”

Vegeta having sensed Goku's power(still not knowing it was ½) says that he will be the one finishing off Cell, heavily implying that he's way stronger than the Goku he sensed.

Or it's Vegeta super arrogance, at least I can't imagine Vegeta saying instead "you are the only one that can do this Goku!"

But I never understood if Vegeta and Trunks maintain their stage 2 during the Cell games, so I don't expect to be accurate in Cell Jr. power. At least I might half agre with you and I might not put any estimative on Cell Jr.

[Senzu_Bean]

It's the only panel out there to compare Piccolo...

He easily defeats #20 and Kuririn compares him to Super Saiyans.

As far I remember, Goku was expecting that Gohan would surpass Cell if he is enraged.

Gohan doesn't have to be stronger than Cell to surpass Goku.

[Kaboom]

But I never understood if Vegeta and Trunks maintain their stage 2 during the Cell games, so I don't expect to be accurate in Cell Jr. power.

They don't seem to have the bulkiness, hair, or aura to suggest it, so... no, it seems they were only using Super Saiyan. If you ask me, they probably saw what Goku and Gohan did with mastering Super Saiyan and were already on the road to doing it themselves, but hadn't yet gained as much power.

[Fox666]

Gohan doesn't have to be stronger than Cell to surpass Goku.

I said he does? He wasn't expeting Gohan to surprass only himself, but Cell who is superior to him.

He easily defeats #20 and Kuririn compares him to Super Saiyans.

I guess #20 was weak.

Why people sticky with Kuririn's line? Kuririn was WRONG

Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow….Was it that you weren’t was as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

They think #20 defeated Trunks in the future, and if that was true, them Kuririn's statement would make sense. But it turned out that it wasn't #20 who defeated Trunks.

Piccolo on the other hand is more reasonable, he gives two choices: or the android was not strong as they were told, or they have became too strong. And we know that the first answer was proven true (#20 is far from #17 and #18) so...

But I never understood if Vegeta and Trunks maintain their stage 2 during the Cell games, so I don't expect to be accurate in Cell Jr. power.

They don't seem to have the bulkiness, hair, or aura to suggest it, so... no, it seems they were only using Super Saiyan. If you ask me, they probably saw what Goku and Gohan did with mastering Super Saiyan and were already on the road to doing it themselves, but hadn't yet gained as much power.

Who knows? In the Majin Buu saga Vegeta was still inferior to Goku, I think it is possible for Vegeta being a Full-power Super Saiyan, don't?

That would actually made the Daizenshuu statement of Cell Jr. having roughly the same strength and speed of Cell have some sense.

[Senzu_Bean]

Only Super Saiyans and Piccolo can fight #19 and #20. That right there make Piccolo's power comparable to Super Saiyans. And isn't only Kuririn but Tenshinhan too.

Both Trunks and Vegeta have Full Power Super Saiyan auras at the Cell Games, so they probably are one.

[Fox666]

Yeah, Piccolo has a battle power of a few millions.

You can't expect Kuririn, Tenshinhan and co. with 10,000 or so to fight the androids.