Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Senzu_Bean]

And we don't even know what training Kuririn and Tenshinhan did.

We know they weren't training with a Super Saiyan, so who gives a shit what they wasted their time on?

I do, because of the Shin Kikoho's ridiculous power compared to the regular Kikoho!

I do too. I don't think Tenshinhan could have generated that much power if he was weak. Whatever the power Cell was when Tenshinhan attacked him with Shin Kikoho this was around 60% of his power in my opinion. And I certainly don't see Tenshinhan raising his battle power above 20 times.

[dbgtFO]

I do too. I don't think Tenshinhan could have generated that much power if he was weak. Whatever the power Cell was when Tenshinhan attacked him with Shin Kikoho this was around 60% of his power in my opinion.

So you would consider #16 less than 60% of initial Semi Cell?

And I certainly don't see Tenshinhan raising his battle power above 20 times.

Neither do I.

By using your numbers I would have:

Semi Cell = 600.000.000.
Shin Kikoho = 360.000.000.
#16 = 290.000.000.
Tenshinhan = 18.000.000.

In my own levels(coupled with your 20x multiplier):

Semi Cell = 600.000.000.
Shin Kikoho = 480.000.000.
#16 = 400.000.000.
Tenshinhan = 24.000.000.

[Senzu_Bean]

So you would consider #16 less than 60% of initial Semi Cell?

I don't know... I guess by this logic it would, which actually doesn't seem wrong.

[dbgtFO]

So you would consider #16 less than 60% of initial Semi Cell?

I don't know... I guess by this logic it would, which actually doesn't seem wrong.

Well it makes sense, since #16's punch wasn't able to push Cell back the way Tenshinha's Shin Kikoho actually pushed him underground. So the sheer force of the Shin Kikoho is many times greater than #16's strongest punch.

Also here's some speculation about the Earthlings compared to Gohan and how Toriyama possibly might have showed us who's stronger, than who:

We know that Gero considered even the earthlings usefull, when wanting to obtain energy by adding their power to his own, so to me that means they are very strong most certainly above 1.000.000, since anything below would be way too ridiculous, when you consider that statement!

Knowing this one could assume that Toriyama maybe wanted to show us who's stronger than who, but make is as vague as possible, so he wouldn't throw off those fans of the series that believe Tenshinhan and co. being anywhere close to regular Saiyans is ridiculous.
I know it's a far stretch, but whatever..

The first example that could imply the order of strength is when Yamcha offers to take Goku home, since that's how he's most useful. Noone actually contradicts him about that and wouldn't it make the most sense that only the strongest characters stay to fight/observe? If we use that logic we now know that Yamcha is the weakest of the Z Fighters right after Chaozu, as usual.

1. Chaozu < Yamcha < everyone else.

The next example comes when Piccolo tells Gohan to take Bulma home. If Gohan really was that far beyond Krillin and Tenshinhan, then wouldn't it be the obvious choice to make Gohan stay, since Gohan also has rage boosts and whatnot to make him even stronger than that? So from this it's possible that Krillin and Tenshinhan really are stronger than Gohan by this point, even though they were severely outclassed in the previous arc.

2. Chaozu < Yamcha < Gohan < everyone else..

The final example comes, when Piccolo wants Tenshinhan instead of Krillin to chase after Cell.
Of course using the previous logic would also mean that Tenshinhan is stronger than SSJ Trunks, but Piccolo probably thought that there should be one SSJ level character accompanying the others at all time, so it would make sense that Trunks was there with Krillin to help out with sudden dangers.
So we have that even though Krillin got boosted to unheard of levels by Guru, Tenshinhan was still able to surpass it meaning:

3. Chaozu < Yamcha < Gohan < Krillin < Tenshinhan.

Although it's purely speculation, I think this works out pretty well! And here's the chart:

Androids Arc Part 1.
Chaozu = 120.000.
Yamcha = 1.800.000.
Gohan = 2.400.000.
Krillin = 3.000.000.
Tenshinhan = 4.800.000. - of course this gives his Shin Kikoho a 100x multiplier, but the regular Kikoho is already way above Kamehameha, so maybe it isn't that bad?

[Senzu_Bean]

Of course using the previous logic would also mean that Tenshinhan is stronger than SSJ Trunks, but Piccolo probably thought that there should be one SSJ level character accompanying the others at all time, so it would make sense that Trunks was there with Krillin to help out with sudden dangers.

Piccolo only had Tenshinhan and Kuririn to choose for. It is logical Trunks wanted to go into Dr. Gero's lab. After all he was trying to find a way to stop the future cyborgs. Adding to all you said above Goku also chose Gohan to rescue Yajirobe and then chose Kuririn instead of Tenshinhan to rescue Yamcha.

Tenshinhan = 4.800.000. - of course this gives his Shin Kikoho a 100x multiplier, but the regular Kikoho is already way above Kamehameha, so maybe it isn't that bad?

Personally I think it is. A 100x multiplier is ridiculous in my opinion. No one can raise his battle power that much. The strong/tough you are, the higher you can raise your battle power. Goku at 3 million could raise it 20x times and almost died because of it, yet as far as we know Tenshinhan only almost died because the Kikoho empties his ki reserves thus why it is so powerful.

[dbgtFO]

Of course using the previous logic would also mean that Tenshinhan is stronger than SSJ Trunks, but Piccolo probably thought that there should be one SSJ level character accompanying the others at all time, so it would make sense that Trunks was there with Krillin to help out with sudden dangers.

Piccolo only had Tenshinhan and Kuririn to choose for. It is logical Trunks wanted to go into Dr. Gero's lab. After all he was trying to find a way to stop the future cyborgs.

Oh Yeah, I forgot that it's actually Trunks who voices an opinion of wanting to destroy baby Cell, before Piccolo picks who is going with him!

Adding to all you said above Goku also chose Gohan to rescue Yajirobe and then chose Kuririn instead of Tenshinhan to rescue Yamcha. As for myself this is a clear indication who is stronger than who.

Good examples! I had forgotten about those.

Tenshinhan = 4.800.000. - of course this gives his Shin Kikoho a 100x multiplier, but the regular Kikoho is already way above Kamehameha, so maybe it isn't that bad?

Personally I think it is. A 100x multiplier is ridiculous in my opinion. No one can raise his battle power that much. The strong/tough you are, the higher you can raise your battle power. Goku at 3 million could raise it 20x times and almost died because of it, yet as far as we know Tenshinhan only almost died because the Kikoho empties his ki reserves thus why it is so powerful.

Yeah you have a point.

[Senzu_Bean]

As for myself that is a clear indication who is stronger than who and the whole parental care towards Gohan isn't supported by either Goku or Piccolo. Goku said they would need Gohan's power to fight the Artificial Humans and Piccolo, even though he cares about Gohan we know he isn't that soft.

Then we also have to consider something else. Tenshinhan was the third strongest when he died against the Saiyans. And everytime those who are above him or surpass him he comments on their strength. He comments how strong Super Saiyan Goku is, claims he doesn't like how strong Piccolo and Vegeta have become and then on Gohan's power after his training.

Basically there are ZERO evidence to put Gohan above the Earthlings (except Yamcha) after those three years, except the fact the Earthlings couldn't be stronger than him because of... something that is totally irrelevant in discussing a fictional work.

[dbgtFO]

Basically there are ZERO evidence to put Gohan above the Earthlings (except Yamcha) after those three years, except the fact the Earthlings couldn't be stronger than him because of... something that is totally irrelevant in discussing a fictional work.

Couldn't have typed it better myself!

[Rocketman]

Basically there are ZERO evidence to put Gohan above the Earthlings (except Yamcha) after those three years, except the fact the Earthlings couldn't be stronger than him because of... something that is totally irrelevant in discussing a fictional work.

Krillin and Tien have no reason to get magical plot power boosts.

There is, however, plot reason to remove Gohan, and Krillin outright says it - despite Trunks' interference, this battle with the Androids turns out nearly identical to the one where they all died and Gohan escaped.



And there still is the problem that no amount of massaging the Earthlings' power levels up makes Gero's comment make sense. Big whoop if Tien magically got to 5 mil, Super Saiyan Vegeta gives no fucks.

[dbgtFO]

Basically there are ZERO evidence to put Gohan above the Earthlings (except Yamcha) after those three years, except the fact the Earthlings couldn't be stronger than him because of... something that is totally irrelevant in discussing a fictional work.

Krillin and Tenshinhan have no reason to get magical plot power boosts.

For them to be considered useful by Dr. Gero they have to.

There is, however, plot reason to remove Gohan, and Krillin outright says it - despite Trunks' interference, this battle with the Androids turns out nearly identical to the one where they all died and Gohan escaped.

Yamcha also escaped and yes I can see you wrote nearly, but the point still stands.
And to add a little note: I and Senzu_Bean didn't say our points were outright facts, but that it's enough for ourselves to conclude who's stronger than who in our opinion.

And there still is the problem that no amount of massaging the Earthlings' power levels up makes Gero's comment make sense. Big whoop if Tenshinhan magically got to 5 mil, Super Saiyan Vegeta gives no fucks.

It does make sense, since Gero + the ki of Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin & Gohan combined would be enough to make him stronger, than Vegeta, as was stated.
And Dr. Gero wasn't contradicted at any point and we all know that "Statements are true, unless contradicted."

[Rocketman]

It does make sense, since Gero + the ki of Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin & Gohan combined would be enough to make him stronger, than Vegeta, as was stated.

Why would he need any other energy but Piccolo's, if Piccolo was on a Super Saiyan level? If Vegeta is $2.00 and Piccolo's $1.50, why does Gero need a bunch of pennies.

Somebody in this scenario is weaker than people keep claiming they are, either Piccolo or Gero.

[dbgtFO]

It does make sense, since Gero + the ki of Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Krillin & Gohan combined would be enough to make him stronger, than Vegeta, as was stated.

Why would he need any other energy but Piccolo's, if Piccolo was on a Super Saiyan level? If Vegeta is $2.00 and Piccolo's $1.50, why does Gero need a bunch of pennies.

Somebody in this scenario is weaker than people keep claiming they are, either Piccolo or Gero.

Because Piccolo alone might not be enough to even make him on par with Vegeta?
Either way it's stated that with ALL of their energy he would be able to defeat Vegeta.
It'll probably look like this:

Vegeta $2.00

Gero $0.80
Piccolo $1.00
Tenshinhan $0.24
Krillin $0.03
Gohan $0.024

Gero post $2.094

[Senzu_Bean]

We know Dr. Gero needs Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Gohan energies to be above Vegeta. There is really no much room for argument. Do you mind if I ask for some evidence that suggests the Earthlings are as weak as you claim them to be? Besides, of course, your extrapolation of what their trainings gains would be.

[Rocketman]

It'll probably look like this:

Vegeta $2.00

Gero $0.80
Piccolo $1.00
Tenshinhan $0.24
Krillin $0.03
Gohan $0.024

Gero post $2.094

You realize that scale makes Tien have a PL of 24,000,000, right?

Do you mind if I ask for some evidence that suggests the Earthlings are as weak as you claim them to be? Besides, of course, your extrapolation of that their trainings gains would be.

That's pretty much it. They don't do any heavy training and the plot doesn't require them to be super-strong, so they aren't.

I mean, really. Krillin training solo on Roshi's island gets stronger than Gohan training with Piccolo and Goku? What kind of mad logic is that? That's completely backwards from every other instance of training shown.

Basically, the plot plays out exactly the same whether Tien is 50,000 or 500,000 or 5,000,000 - in all three cases he's too weak to affect anything. Therefore, I go with the lowest number because King Kai's training is "equal to thousands of years of training on Earth".

Fusion and Super Saiyan moved to the forefront because simple training was no longer good enough.


EDIT: And this isn't just hatin' on the humans. I don't think Goku or Vegeta got much stronger either. It's just that they get to multiply their small gains fifty times over.

[Senzu_Bean]

That's pretty much it. They don't do any heavy training and the plot doesn't require them to be super-strong, so they aren't.

Okay then. Case closed.

[dbgtFO]

It'll probably look like this:

Vegeta $2.00

Gero $0.80
Piccolo $1.00
Tenshinhan $0.24
Krillin $0.03
Gohan $0.024

Gero post $2.094

You realize that scale makes Tenshinhan have a PL of 24,000,000, right?

Ehh yeah? I had a discussion with Senzu_Bean about it on the previous page.

And since you have now shown us what you really feel(not that I didn't already know it, due to your own chart and such) I think, that we don't have to continue this debate, since you obviously can't be convinced. You agree?

[Rocketman]

And since you have now shown us what you really feel(not that I already knew it, due to your own chart and such) I think, that we don't have to continue this debate, since you obviously can't be convinced. You agree?

Show me your power levels for ChiChi and perhaps I can be convinced.

More seriously, I agree. I like the humans a lot more than pretty much everybody introduced after Freeza, but I just don't see them being that strong.

[dbgtFO]

And since you have now shown us what you really feel(not that I already knew it, due to your own chart and such) I think, that we don't have to continue this debate, since you obviously can't be convinced. You agree?

Show me your power levels for ChiChi and perhaps I can be convinced.

Okay working from this:

Chi-Chi [#FR2#CHI]
Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), 9.4-5
Context: after learning that Goku refuses to return to Earth
Kame-sennin: “I-I know! He’s afraid of his wife! He can’t stand her! So the strongest in the universe is Super Saiyan Son Goku’s wife!”
*Chi-Chi threatens him with a sword*
Kame-sennin: “I-I was joking…joking!...”

Although it would seem Kamesennin retracts his statement about Chi Chi being superior to Goku, that is actually far from the truth!
Kamesennin only claimed he was joking because of Chi Chi threatening him, so his statement was NOT contradicted.

Combining what we know with the Earliest BP of Chi Chi which is 130 from Weekly Jump I have this chart of Chi Chi from the 23rd TB onwards.

23rd TB Arc
Chi Chi = 130
-fraction of suppressed hidden power not yet unleashed, due to still not knowing the true nature of Goku = 1030

Saiyan Arc Part 1.
Chi Chi(Strict, but fair Mama) = 1830
-pissed at Goku not coming back in time with Gohan = 2800
-finding out Goku's the cause of Gohan being kidnapped = 18.000 - a power increase isn't noted however because of her passing out before being able to fully unleash it.

Saiyan Arc Part 2.
Chi Chi With Weaponry(ready to save her son and kill her husband) = 530.000.

Namek Arc
Chi Chi(on the battlefield ignoring Goku) = 1.060.000.
-being told to shut up by her own son = 60.000.000. - luckily for Gohan Chi Chi decided to go out and destroy some planets off-screen.
-celebrating Christmas with her father = 120.000.000. - Chi Chi has time for her family in contrary to Goku, who leaves them all whenever possible.
-threatening Kamesennin = 22.500.000.000.000.

What about the change in Chi Chi's battle power after that?
Even after the battle with Freeza, unbelievable stupidity surpassing human knowledge was showcased by the husband of the legendary one. Though the power-ups received after having proven to the reader how good of a mom she is became small, Chi Chi instead began using Vegeta as her sexual partner to increase both of their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically...

More seriously, I agree. I like the humans a lot more than pretty much everybody introduced after Freeza, but I just don't see them being that strong.

You made that addition after I had already started making the above chart
Well what do you feel about the chart then?

[Rocketman]

Works for me!

Tien was 24 mill, everybody!

You made that addition after I had already started making the above chart :lol:
Well what do you feel about the chart then? :P

ChiChi is half-demon, not a full-blood human. :P


E: Edits replying to edits to edit edits that haven't been edited yet! BLARG

[dbgtFO]

Works for me!

Tenshinhan was 24 mill, everybody!

Huuuuuuuray!!!!

You made that addition after I had already started making the above chart
Well what do you feel about the chart then?

ChiChi is half-demon, not a full-blood human.

It's typical Daizenshuu to leave such important information out!

E: Edits replying to edits to edit edits that haven't been edited yet! BLARG

Indeed