Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Piccolo Daimao]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z? I know there are a number of people who don't make battle powers for pre-Z Dragon Ball, since they didn't even exist back then and weren't as focused on "stronger one wins", but I just want to know how people feel about it.

[dbgtFO]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z? I know there are a number of people who don't make battle powers for pre-Z Dragon Ball, since they didn't even exist back then and weren't as focused on "stronger one wins", but I just want to know how people feel about it.

If strength only was about amount of ki back then, I would probably agree with Outer Z's Battle Power Chart: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... +Z#p387742
Since actual physical strength and not ki was the decider however...
I believe it's different: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... re#p399937

[Kaboom]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z?

There was a lot of hyperbole and exaggeration for dramatic effect, and if you take every statement as-is, it probably wouldn't mesh very well with the stated power levels which started with Raditz. I plan to try an experimental DB list sometime soon where I do just that, and see what I come up with.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z?

There was a lot of hyperbole and exaggeration for dramatic effect, and if you take every statement as-is, it probably wouldn't mesh very well with the stated power levels which started with Raditz. I plan to try an experimental DB list sometime soon where I do just that, and see what I come up with.

OK, cool.

[Rocketman]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z? I know there are a number of people who don't make battle powers for pre-Z Dragon Ball, since they didn't even exist back then and weren't as focused on "stronger one wins", but I just want to know how people feel about it.

It probably fits better if you go with Piccolo and Goku's true powers being nigh-1000 instead of just over 400.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What do you guys think about the progression of battle powers pre-Z? I know there are a number of people who don't make battle powers for pre-Z Dragon Ball, since they didn't even exist back then and weren't as focused on "stronger one wins", but I just want to know how people feel about it.

It probably fits better if you go with Piccolo and Goku's true powers being nigh-1000 instead of just over 400.

I don't like that idea. I think Goku and Piccolo's full powers were just over 400, since Raditz's scouter didn't start beeping when they rushed at him, and the only times their power were stated to rise was when they were concentrating their ki for attacks.

But I do understand it can be pretty hard to fit in pre-Z Dragon Ball battle powers before the Raditz battle powers, what with certain statements limiting you.

[JulieYBM]

Well, they were just standing there when Raditz read their battle powers. I don't think a panel needs to be devoted to Raditz noticing their battle powers spiking when they're exerting themselves.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, they were just standing there when Raditz read their battle powers. I don't think a panel needs to be devoted to Raditz noticing their battle powers spiking when they're exerting themselves.

I just think, if their powers had spiked, it would've at least been noted. When they concentrated their ki to use attacks, it was noted. And I think those two numbers were meant to display their battle powers.

[Senzu_Bean]

If you assume Goku and Piccolo's battle powers are their Kamehameha and Makankosappo readings then you have the problem of Piccolo be far stronger than Goku and why Raditz is surprised how Goku and Piccolo are rising their battle powers if they aren't actually doing it.

[dbgtFO]

Well, they were just standing there when Raditz read their battle powers. I don't think a panel needs to be devoted to Raditz noticing their battle powers spiking when they're exerting themselves.

I just think, if their powers had spiked, it would've at least been noted. When they concentrated their ki to use attacks, it was noted. And I think those two numbers were meant to display their battle powers.

Would you also say that Piccolo, when being read at 1220 would only be able to fight at that level and not anything above it?
In fact Gohan when kicking Nappa wasn't detected by Vegeta's scouter(and yes Vegeta was wearing it at that time) and Gohan in that instant was most certainly higher than the 981 he started out with, so i will say that it's entirely possible that Goku and Piccolo could raise their BPs when attacking for just an instant in so short bursts that the scouter could not detect it.
It is afterall what Goku was taught by Mr. Popo: to remove his presence(making himself as calm as the sky) and not make unneccesary movements, but instead use his power in small bursts(moving faster than lightning - metaphor!!!).
That's what he showed against King Chapa afterall...

[Piccolo Daimao]

Well, they were just standing there when Raditz read their battle powers. I don't think a panel needs to be devoted to Raditz noticing their battle powers spiking when they're exerting themselves.

I just think, if their powers had spiked, it would've at least been noted. When they concentrated their ki to use attacks, it was noted. And I think those two numbers were meant to display their battle powers.

Would you also say that Piccolo, when being read at 1220 would only be able to fight at that level and not anything above it?
In fact Gohan when kicking Nappa wasn't detected by Vegeta's scouter(and yes Vegeta was wearing it at that time) and Gohan in that instant was most certainly higher than the 981 he started out with, so i will say that it's entirely possible that Goku and Piccolo could raise their BPs when attacking for just an instant in so short bursts that the scouter could not detect it.
It is afterall what Goku was taught by Mr. Popo: to remove his presence(making himself as calm as the sky) and not make unneccesary movements, but instead use his power in small bursts(moving faster than lightning - metaphor!!!).
That's what he showed against King Chapa afterall...

Obviously, I don't think Piccolo would only be able to fight at 1,220, since Vegeta said that they shouldn't rely on those battle powers because they could control it at will. And, as we saw, Piccolo eradicated a 1,200 Saibaimen with ease.

I'm not sure if Gohan had risen his BP when he attacked Nappa. Perhaps he simply caught Nappa off-guard.

And the thing about spiking your ki so instantaneously the scouters can't pick it up is only mentioned by Vegeta when Goku fights the Ginyu Force, and Vegeta is astounded by how Goku can do such a thing, implying that it hadn't happened before.

[dbgtFO]

Obviously, I don't think Piccolo would only be able to fight at 1,220, since Vegeta said that they shouldn't rely on those battle powers because they could control it at will. And, as we saw, Piccolo eradicated a 1,200 Saibaimen with ease.

Then why can't it apply to the Raditz battle?

I'm not sure if Gohan had risen his BP when he attacked Nappa. Perhaps he simply caught Nappa off-guard.

Of course he did, that's why you had a panel of him getting angry and then attacking...
Seriously he did rage and got boosted because of that.

And the thing about spiking your ki so instantaneously the scouters can't pick it up is only mentioned by Vegeta when Goku fights the Ginyu Force, and Vegeta is astounded by how Goku can do such a thing, implying that it hadn't happened before.

Vegeta didn't see the exact fight of Goku and Piccolo vs. Raditz though, so we don't have to take his word for it, since we still have the Gohan example from above.
Don't forget that the earthlings indeed can suppress their power, since Nappa didn't think anyone could beat the Saibamen, which means Tenshinhan was most certainly not much over 1000, when he was scouted, but 1830, when they fought. Just like Goku was 416, when he removed his weights, but most likely around 900 when fighting.

[Fox666]

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

At this points Vegeta was using the Scouter while Kuririn and Piccolo were fighting Nappa, still Vegeta wasn't sure that they could rise their power?
(Not to mention that Piccolo supposedly has 3,500 of power, wouldn't Vegeta had told Nappa that if he could pick Piccolo's full power?)

I guess that the same way Goku and Piccolo could maintain their battle powers at 400, while they actually had around 900 (as Weekly Jump stated for Goku in the 23rd Budokai). This only proves how idiot Raditz was.

Everything indicates that they can keep their battle power low even in combat. Their full potential (and even more) would be revealed if they use some special attack (including the Kaio-ken). They may also intentionally show off their Ki (i.e. Vegeta vs Cui).

And the thing about spiking your ki so instantaneously the scouters can't pick it up is only mentioned by Vegeta when Goku fights the Ginyu Force, and Vegeta is astounded by how Goku can do such a thing, implying that it hadn't happened before.

Goku could maintain his battle power at a incredible low level. This is what surprised Vegeta and everybody else.

Just like Goku was 416, when he removed his weights, but most likely around 900 when fighting

I find really interesting how the Databooks give a completely new view of the Raditz fight.



While the manga suggests that it would be 416 vs 1,200 (difference of almost 3x) on reality it's 910 vs 1,500 (difference slightly over ⅔x).

This only proves how Toriyama ommited the battle powers in the manga.

[dbgtFO]

Just like Goku was 416, when he removed his weights, but most likely around 900 when fighting

I find really interesting how the Databooks give a completely new view of the Raditz fight.
*Snip*
*Snip*
While the manga suggests that it would be 416 vs 1,200 (difference of almost 3x) on reality it's 910 vs 1,500 (difference slightly over ⅔x).

This only proves how Toriyama ommited the battle powers in the manga.

Actually Daizenshuu 7 say that 416 was Goku's full power. Needless to say that is a reasoning, I don't agree with...

If you assume Goku and Piccolo's battle powers are their Kamehameha and Makankosappo readings then you have the problem of Piccolo be far stronger than Goku and why Raditz is surprised how Goku and Piccolo are rising their battle powers if they aren't actually doing it.

I'll assume that the Kamehameha isn't a BP multiplier or whatever(not saying that you said it!), but actually is that strong, because of Goku himself being incredibly strong.
And the Makankossapo seems to be an attack that is different from anything else, since it was specifically created to kill Goku, so to me 1330 is a power only his Makankossapo can have due to it being so concentrated, while the Kamehameha(or Super Kamehameha in this case) is just Goku using his full power in that blast.

Also check out what Fox666 said.

@Piccolo Daimao, if you still don't believe it, you should try and check out the Goku vs. Ginyu battle. We see them in extended fight scenes ie. Goku is not unleashing his BP in bursts anymore, but actually fighting all out! Just like he did against Raditz! And since we know Raditz' scouter is severely inferior to Jheese and Ginyu's scouters it's highly likely that even though Goku was fighting all out the scouter was still unable to detect it!

In the Ginyu battle Goku even flies with a ki aura and anything and neither Jheese's or Ginyu's scouter picked it up! And we know it's much easier to pick up a ki signal, if you're flying all out(seen when Vegeta immediately sensed Krillin and Gohan, when they flew at top speed!) Here's the scan:
of Goku vs. Ginyu.

Of course you can believe what you want, but I will like to see how you would like to put all the statements we have into a hypothetical BP chart spanning the earlier parts of the story.

For Example Goku at 260 is far weaker than Popo, while Popo is far weaker than God. And both of them are far weaker than Goku's supposed full power of 416, if we ask Daizenshuu 7.
How would you make that fit?

[Son Edo]

Can i post my Battle Powers of the OVA special?

[Godo]

Can i post my Battle Powers of the OVA special?

Go ahead. Any powerlevel list is welcome in this thread!

[Son Edo]

Plan To Eradicate the Saiyans

Son Goku - 570,000,000

Son Gohan - 450,000,000

Vegeta - 500,000,000

Mirai Trunks - 490,000,000

Piccolo - 1,900,000,000 (Weights)

Piccolo - 2,300,000,000 (Unweighted)

Random Monsters - 650,000,000

SSJ Son Goku - 4,560,000,000

SSJ Son Gohan - 3,600,000,000

SSJ Vegeta - 4,000,000,000

SSJ Mirai Trunks - 3,920,000,000

Cooler (Ghost Warrior) - 3,000,000,000

Freeza (Ghost Warrior) - 2,500,000,000

Slug (Ghost Warrior) - 1,500,000,000

Tullece (Ghost Warrior) - 1,000,000,000

Hatchyack - 12,000,000,000

Combined Attack - 18,240,000,000

Alternative Endings

Hatchyack (Giant) - 18,000,000,000

Chou Hatchyack - 24,000,000,000

Chou Genki Dama - 50,000,000,000

[Piccolo Daimao]

@Piccolo Daimao, if you still don't believe it, you should try and check out the Goku vs. Ginyu battle. We see them in extended fight scenes ie. Goku is not unleashing his BP in bursts anymore, but actually fighting all out! Just like he did against Raditz! And since we know Raditz' scouter is severely inferior to Jheese and Ginyu's scouters it's highly likely that even though Goku was fighting all out the scouter was still unable to detect it!

In the Ginyu battle Goku even flies with a ki aura and anything and neither Jheese's or Ginyu's scouter picked it up! And we know it's much easier to pick up a ki signal, if you're flying all out(seen when Vegeta immediately sensed Krillin and Gohan, when they flew at top speed!) Here's the scan:
of Goku vs. Ginyu.

Of course you can believe what you want, but I will like to see how you would like to put all the statements we have into a hypothetical BP chart spanning the earlier parts of the story.

For Example Goku at 260 is far weaker than Popo, while Popo is far weaker than God. And both of them are far weaker than Goku's supposed full power of 416, if we ask Daizenshuu 7.
How would you make that fit?

I actually agree with you now. I just thought that 416 and 408 were Goku and Piccolo's full power because I thought that was the implication in the manga. But when I think about it, Raditz is later surprised by Goku raising his BP with the Kamehameha and Vegeta later says that their BPs fluctuate, so it's not all that crazy to assume that Goku and Piccolo's battle powers were those two stated levels.

This actually makes the progression of pre-Z Dragon Ball battle powers fit a bit more. I haven't put them in a battle power list yet though.

EDIT: Oh, and one last thing. dbgtFO, what do you think about Bulma's readings for the Earthlings and Piccolo? Would Kuririn's full power be higher than 206 since he wasn't fighting? Or is 206 his real power since he can't suppress it like Goku? And what about Tenshinhan's 250? We don't know what he was doing at the time, but could we assume that he was at full power, considering he can't suppress his ki and seems to be training almost 24/7 with Chaozu?

[Senzu_Bean]

^ Only Goku and Piccolo can manipulate their battle powers at the time Bulma read the Earthlings strength.

But when I think about it, Raditz is later surprised by Goku raising his BP with the Kamehameha...

This basically show Goku wasn't fighting at over 900 or Goku wouldn't be raising his battle power like Raditz (Toriyama) suggests. And if Goku is really over 900 than Piccolo is over 1000, implying Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which isn't suggested anywhere.

[dbgtFO]

I actually agree with you now. I just thought that 416 and 408 were Goku and Piccolo's full power because I thought that was the implication in the manga. But when I think about it, Raditz is later surprised by Goku raising his BP with the Kamehameha and Vegeta later says that their BPs fluctuate, so it's not all that crazy to assume that Goku and Piccolo's battle powers were those two stated levels.

Yeah, Vegeta's statement is basically what led me to believe that Goku and Piccolo weren't outputting their max ki, when just standing around having a conversation with Raditz.

This actually makes the progression of pre-Z Dragon Ball battle powers fit a bit more. I haven't put them in a battle power list yet though.

Exactly and that's why I think Weekly Jump's level for 18 year old Goku was ingenious!

EDIT: Oh, and one last thing. dbgtFO, what do you think about Bulma's readings for the Earthlings and Piccolo? Would Kuririn's full power be higher than 206 since he wasn't fighting? Or is 206 his real power since he can't suppress it like Goku? And what about Tenshinhan's 250? We don't know what he was doing at the time, but could we assume that he was at full power, considering he can't suppress his ki and seems to be training almost 24/7 with Chaozu?

They haven't yet learned to suppress their ki, so that would indeed be their max.

This basically show Goku wasn't fighting at over 900 or Goku wouldn't be raising his battle power like Raditz (Toriyama) suggests. And if Goku is really over 900 than Piccolo is over 1000, implying Piccolo is stronger than Goku, which isn't suggested anywhere.

Goku was midair, when he started to charge the Kamehameha, so it's more than likely it fell a little bit, also 924 was the first level Raditz read out and not 500 fx, which shows me, that Goku indeed was close to 900, since he kept on charging after that.

And Piccolo's 1330 is because it's a special technique, just like the Kikoho. It's ridiculously powerful, but it's downside is charging it, so Piccolo could be fighting at a level close to 900, but his Makankossapo has a power that is the equivalent of a 1330 ki blast, like Daizenshuu 7 states.