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[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta seemed surprised that Gohan raised his power after Piccolo's death. However, while he was with the Scouter, Nappa was fighting with the earthlings. This means that through the entire battle Kuririn, Piccolo and Gohan remained with their initial values of 1,083, 1,220 and 981.

Lolwut?

When Nappa read those numbers off, Vegeta said that they were worthless, since their battle powers fluctuated as the battle went on. Throughout nearly the whole battle, Vegeta didn't have his scouter on anyway. Vegeta was surprised at the level of power Gohan was displaying, and judging by his comment, it seems like he was just confirming that they truly did raise their battle power.

Plus, if Piccolo was only at 1,220, he couldn't have defeated that 1,200 Saibaimen so easily, and it would negate the impact of Piccolo and the Earthlings needing to be stronger than guys equal to Raditz to make Vegeta and Nappa even more terrifying. If, after all that training, they hadn't even gotten stronger than Raditz, then their training was all a waste (not that you could say their training was a waste anyway since they still got killed, but it would be stupid if they trained and still didn't even get stronger than Raditz, when they were trying to fight guys even stronger than him).

[Fox666]

1,220 was the value DISPLAYED in the Scouters. Piccolo full power was 3,500 as given in the Weekly Jump and Daizenshuu.

Vegeta hadn't the Scouter for most of the battle, however he picked it up while Goku was approaching. Still the Scouter couldn't tell that Piccolo and Kuririn had more than 1,220 and 1,083 for the remaining of the combat.

[Piccolo Daimao]

1,220 was the value DISPLAYED in the Scouters. Piccolo full power was 3,500 as given in the Weekly Jump and Daizenshuu.

Vegeta hadn't the Scouter for most of the battle, however he picked it up while Goku was approaching. Still the Scouter couldn't tell that Piccolo and Kuririn had more than 1,220 and 1,083 for the remaining of the combat.

Read again what I said.

When Nappa read those numbers off, Vegeta said that they were worthless, since their battle powers fluctuated as the battle went on.

Vegeta already knows that they can control their battle power. He was listening in during Goku and Piccolo's battle with Raditz, and flat-out said that "these people change their battle power in response to the fight. Those figures can't be relied upon anymore.". And Vegeta was even cautious of Goku's initial level of 5,000 because he knew the people on Earth were able to alter their figures.

Chapter: 222 (DBZ 28), P4.1
Vegeta: “Someone with a battle ability of about 5,000...!!”
Nappa: “5,000?! That’s impossible! It has to be a mistake.”
Vegeta: “It’s truly an unthinkable figure for the old Kakarot. What’s more, the people here are able to alter their figures…So 5,000 could just be his minimum.”

That was before Gohan even used the Masenko.

Why didn't Vegeta note that Piccolo, Kuririn and Gohan's powers had increased during battle after he put back on his scouter? Probably because he didn't deem it noteworthy. He already knew that they could change their battle power, and already knew that they were stronger than Raditz from Tenshinhan beating the Saibaimen (and knew that Piccolo was stronger than that, since they went after the strongest ki they could feel when they first arrived--plus, he was the one who killed Raditz in the first place).

He noted it for Gohan's Masenko and Goku respectively because he was surprised at the levels of power. Gohan's a 5-year-old kid and Goku was a low-class Saiyan raised on Earth. To Vegeta and Nappa, those powers are something worth noting, because their powers shouldn't be anywhere near that high.

[Fox666]

Vegeta was already suspicious that they could do it because he heard it from Raditz's battle.

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

However this line indicates he hadn't watched it for his own until Gohan used the Masenko.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Vegeta was already suspicious that they could do it because he heard it from Raditz's battle.

Vegeta: “Battle power 2,800...!!! So they really do drastically change their battle powers!!”

However this line indicates he hadn't watched it for his own until Gohan used the Masenko.

I'll reiterate: he knew that they could change their battle power, from Raditz's battle and Goku's initial level of 5,000 (which he was already cautious of as a minimum before Goku even powered up). With Gohan, he was simply confirming what he'd believed all along.

[lonewolf]

Planet Trade organization

Most of the villains, whom were associated with the Planet Trade organization, used Scouters to determine someone's power. They were constantly surprised by the Ki sensors ability to increase their battle powers.

Despite the aliens working for Freeza, perhaps this would also apply to Puipui or Yakon?

They still could power-up, and always surprised the Ki sensors. Despite that, a Scouter should tell their full power right away. In this case the Scouter seems more efficient than Ki sensing.



Interestingly, it seems both Nappa and Vegeta could mantain their power at a very few thousands. While the earthlings feared their Ki, still Piccolo was very surprised after Nappa powered-up, and couldn't tell that Vegeta was superior to him, despite the huge gap in power beetween the two.

I'm sorry but I coudn't find the scan where Piccolo couldn't tell that Vegeta was superior to Nappa.
First Form Freeza should be in PCTC group because he can control not to use full power of his 530000.

Power controlling-type creatures

These kinds of races can control their output amount of power. Freeza could use it with a relative precision, to the point he could declare a numerical percentage to it.

This seems to limit to Ginyu and Freeza. Cell might be able to do something like this due to Freeza's DNA, however does he need to since he already can manipulate his Ki?

Ki sensors cannot tell how strong they can be. However, it seems like they could sense Freeza's hidden power to a limited extend (after he transformed in his 3rd and 4th forms). According to Ginyu, this seems to be a special ability similar to that of the earthlings, thus it's unlikely that a Scouter can tell how strong they are, unless they use 100% of their power.



It we assume that Ginyu initial power was around Goku's power (since they had a even fight), could it be that the 85,000 he guessed for Goku was his own power? If that was the case, he was using 70% of his power.

It seems like that Freeza cannot use less than roughly 2% of his power while in his 4th forms, and can only decrease it further through transformations.

Second Form Freeza should be in PTO group because he cannot alter his scouter readings.

[dbgtFO]

I'm sorry but I coudn't find the scan where Piccolo couldn't tell that Vegeta was superior to Nappa.
First Form Freeza should be in PCTC group because he can control not to use full power of his 530000.
Second Form Freeza should be in PTO group because he cannot alter his scouter readings.

Fox666 put everyone in their right groups.
Second Form Freeza:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Fits in with Fox' definition of PCTC.

First Form Freeza:

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Fits with Fox' definition of PTO.

[lonewolf]

I'm sorry but I coudn't find the scan where Piccolo couldn't tell that Vegeta was superior to Nappa.
First Form Freeza should be in PCTC group because he can control not to use full power of his 530000.
Second Form Freeza should be in PTO group because he cannot alter his scouter readings.

Fox666 put everyone in their right groups.
Second Form Freeza:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Fits in with Fox' definition of PCTC.

That quote could fits in either KM and PTCT.

First Form Freeza:

Chapter: 294 (DBZ 100), P14.1
Context: as Freeza powers up
Piccolo: “That large ki has become even more absurdly large! Is this ‘Freeza’ finally starting to move?!”

Fits with Fox' definition of PTO.

Fits with the definition of PCTC

Chapter: 286 (DBZ 92), P5.4
"My battle power is 530,000. But of course, I don't intend to fight you at full power, so you can relax..."

[dbgtFO]

@lonewolf
No.
What you wrote:

First Form Freeza should be in PCTC group because he can control not to use full power of his 530000.

Fox666's definition of PTO:

Planet Trade organization
They still could power-up, and always surprised the Ki sensors. Despite that, a Scouter should tell their full power right away. In this case the Scouter seems more efficient than Ki sensing.

Fits with First Form Freeza being able to power up, but a scouter being able to detect all of it.

What you wrote:

Second Form Freeza should be in PTO group because he cannot alter his scouter readings.

Fox666's definition of PCTC:

Power controlling-type creatures
According to Ginyu, this seems to be a special ability similar to that of the earthlings, thus it's unlikely that a Scouter can tell how strong they are, unless they use 100% of their power.

Fits with this:
Second Form Freeza:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Second Form Freeza was able to control his Battle Power(ie. alter his scouter readings), while Vegeta didn't say anything about First Form Freeza being able to do that, so First Form Freeza can't, while Second Form Freeza can.

[lonewolf]

@lonewolf
No.
What you wrote:

First Form Freeza should be in PCTC group because he can control not to use full power of his 530000.

Fox666's definition of PTO:

Planet Trade organization
They still could power-up, and always surprised the Ki sensors. Despite that, a Scouter should tell their full power right away. In this case the Scouter seems more efficient than Ki sensing.

Fits with First Form Freeza being able to power up, but a scouter being able to detect all of it.

What you wrote:

Second Form Freeza should be in PTO group because he cannot alter his scouter readings.

Fox666's definition of PCTC:

Power controlling-type creatures
According to Ginyu, this seems to be a special ability similar to that of the earthlings, thus it's unlikely that a Scouter can tell how strong they are, unless they use 100% of their power.

Fits with this:
Second Form Freeza:

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…Kukuku…”

Second Form Freeza was able to control his Battle Power(ie. alter his scouter readings), while Vegeta didn't say anything about First Form Freeza being able to do that, so First Form Freeza can't, while Second Form Freeza can.

But what makes KM different to PCTC? Both types can control their scouter reading, what makes them different?

[dbgtFO]

But what makes KM different to PCTC? Both types can control their scouter reading, what makes them different?

Here's my guide for power-ups:
Ki manipulators
This type of power-up is commonly used by the earthling. They are capable of sensing the Ki without any device.

Which Ginyu and Freeza can't.

An interesting thing to point out, is that Toriyama actually made a difference in the way characters powered up. For Example a guy, whose full power is always detected by the scouter powers up with an aura(Nappa, Vegeta & First Form Freeza), while a guy who's able to alter one's scouter reading powers up without one and instead has that weird background with all the circles. The only exception being Gohan & Krillin vs. Guldo and Vegeta vs. Recoome and later vs. First Form Freeza, who all powered up with an aura and altered their scouter reading as well. And then of course Freeza, who went to 50% of his power without an aura or anything.

[p123]

This is turning into an awfully good debate...

Freeza I would think can alter his scouter reading.. Vegeta's comment, To think that he can alter his battle power, would definitley suggest he can do what Vegeta thought was so special previously... I think Vegeta thought he was the only one in the Planet Trade Organization to be able to do that. Apparently Ginyu and Freeza can also do this it would appear...